I wouldnt say its a horrible Idea, but why not just get Sprint IOs so you arent slow with rooted?
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Oh that's another thing I disliked about the standard Stone builds... having to add slots to Swift is something I've never done and really don't wanna do.|
Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
I wouldnt say its a horrible Idea, but why not just get Sprint IOs so you arent slow with rooted?
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Also, I slot my builds these days with standard Invention-Origin enhancements. I don't deal with the IO sets anymore. And from what I've read, IO sets are pretty much required to help get a rooted build out of the mud (so to speak).
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It's not a horrible idea, but you will definitly be losing out on survivability. The regen in rooted is not something to look past.
In time, I'll come to forgive you.
It's a really bad idea because it sounds like you haven't actually looked at what all Rooted gives you:
- knockback protection
- Sleep
- Disorient
- Hold
- Immobilize
- Endurance Drain Resistance
- Defense Debuff Resistance
- +100% Regeneration
On top of that, Rooted adds to your Defense Debuff Resistance. What that means is that enemies that debuff your defense have to work even harder to take that defense away.
Lets say you have 10 points of defense, and no defense debuff resistance.
If somebody hits you with an attack that removes 4 points of defense, you only have 6 points of defense left.
If you have 10 points of defense, and 50% defense debuff resistance
If somebody hits you with an attack that removes 4 points of defense, their attack will only be half as effective, and you'll have 8 points of defense left.
This is CRITICAL on Stone Armors because the set, up until granite, is all about Defense. The only native smashing / lethal resistance is stone skin... and that's um... what? 14% resistance if you cap it into ED?
Now, you might not like the fact that Rooted has that speed decrease. Well, it's there because it's the trade-off for getting such an amazing power that does so many other things really well.
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Yep, I'm well aware of what I'll be missing out on. It just doesn't justify the massive speed penalty to me.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
It's a really bad idea because it sounds like you haven't actually looked at what all Rooted gives you:
On top of that, Rooted adds to your Defense Debuff Resistance. What that means is that enemies that debuff your defense have to work even harder to take that defense away. Lets say you have 10 points of defense, and no defense debuff resistance. If somebody hits you with an attack that removes 4 points of defense, you only have 6 points of defense left. If you have 10 points of defense, and 50% defense debuff resistance If somebody hits you with an attack that removes 4 points of defense, their attack will only be half as effective, and you'll have 8 points of defense left. This is CRITICAL on Stone Armors because the set, up until granite, is all about Defense. The only native smashing / lethal resistance is stone skin... and that's um... what? 14% resistance if you cap it into ED? Now, you might not like the fact that Rooted has that speed decrease. Well, it's there because it's the trade-off for getting such an amazing power that does so many other things really well. |
I'll probably skip Granite Armor too. I've never taken a tier 9 defense power and my tanks/brutes have played just fine. Those "buffing then crashing & detoggling" powers just don't fit my playstyle.
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The toggles don't drop anymore, but I'm pretty sure they do suppress. Which means that while you're stunned, you'll be completely defenseless. Hope you have fast reflexes (and don't run out of BFs).
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Originally Posted by Shellback
He'll be vulnerable to Stuns, but since those don't drop toggles anymore (and since he'll have above average defense from said toggles), I don't think it'll be much of a worry. I can just keep a few Break Frees on hand at all times.
 |
Why don't you just not play stone?
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Ah right. I did forget about the supression aspect. But that's still preferable to completely detoggling. As for my skill of popping insps... I hope you're right too. :-p
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Originally Posted by MTS
The toggles don't drop anymore, but I'm pretty sure they do suppress. Which means that while you're stunned, you'll be completely defenseless. Hope you have fast reflexes (and don't run out of BFs).
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Uh...whoa. I rolled a Kin/Stone Brute as well and, like you, I'm no fan of the movement penalties that Stone Armor provides. But I would never conceive of skipping Rooted. As you know, it's more than just mezz protection. Of all the powers you listed as a means of getting around not having Rooted only two, Combat Jumping and Acrobatics, give you any sort of actual protection from mezz. The others only provide resistance to mezz effects. So you'll still be vulnerable to them; they just won't last as long.|
Originally Posted by Shellback
Yep, I'm well aware of what I'll be missing out on. It just doesn't justify the massive speed penalty to me.
I'll probably skip Granite Armor too. I've never taken a tier 9 defense power and my tanks/brutes have played just fine. Those powers just don't fit my playstyle. |
I'm not a fan of being forced into using Teleport as a travel power either. My Brute's concept required Fly. But I'm not skipping Rooted. Instead I've got binds set up that allow me to toggle it and my travel powers on and off as necessary. That way I can zip into a spawn and quickly activate mezz protection or activate my travel powers to zip out (I use Ninja Run indoors. There's rarely a need to Fly since I can either Taunt the foes down to me or just hit 'em with something).
If you wanna make a build according to your self-imposed restrictions that's cool but you should be sure to inform other players of your lack of Stone Armor's essential powers (Preferably in your search comment so they don't waste time inviting you only to find out your build doesn't meet their expectations). Personally, I wouldn't team with you on that toon but that's just me.
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1. The set fits the toon concept. (This reason trumps all others, really.)|
Originally Posted by Warkupo
Why don't you just not play stone?
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2. It's a set I've never played very long (for previously listed reasons).
3. I don't hate the set. There are just powers in it that I don't particularly agree with so I'm attempting to play it *my way*. I'm sure other players have problems with other powers in other sets. This set is just the one that gives me the most trouble every time I try playing it.
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Mud Pots, because it affects enemies, will get detoggled by stuns, holds (mag 2 protection from Acrobatics is not much), and sleeps (which you resist, so the duration is shorter, but if a sleep hits it's going to drop your Pots). Mud Pots are a bigger part of DPS than you might think.|
Originally Posted by Shellback
Ah right. I did forget about the supression aspect. But that's still preferable to completely detoggling. As for my skill of popping insps... I hope you're right too. :-p
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I'm curious, since you seem intelligent and have thought through all the things you'll be missing out on without Rooted, why you asked for feedback. There's nothing wrong with concept builds, but if concept is always going to trump mechanics, nobody is ever going to be able to dissuade you. I have well over 1000 hours on stone armor characters, and would never consider not taking Rooted. I have it bound to the r-key and toggle it on and off when I need to move around, but it's incredibly important to survivability both solo and in teams.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
Why don't you do just toggle off Rooted when moving between spawns? I've done this to good effect before, and it seems like others have done so as well.
Like Timeshadow said, using binds to toggle travel powers and Rooted when moving and engaging a spawn works very well. I've made Stone Armorers before without Teleport, actually, I don't think I've ever made a Stone Armor user with that power before. It's nice to move around in Rooted, but you don't HAVE to move around with the power toggled. It's so easy to toggle off and on in my experience that I don't have to worry about using teleport.
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It looks to me like you're talking about Granite Armor like it's a Tier 9 power like Invuln's Unstoppable. I might be reading this wrong but in case you didn't know, Granite isn't a power that crashes. It's a toggle. It does grant mez protection and slows you down a bit, but not nearly as much as Rooted. You can still move around pretty well. That being said, you don't necessarily have to take Granite Armor. I find that I can tank/survive most things without it, but as the difficulty level starts going up I tend to have to use it or sometimes against the more powerful AVs. That's your only other source of mez protection besides Rooted. | I'll probably skip Granite Armor too. I've never taken a tier 9 defense power and my tanks/brutes have played just fine. Those "buffing then crashing & detoggling" powers just don't fit my playstyle. |
Honestly, I think that going without Rooted will be extremely unpleasant. I can see skipping Granite Armor, but without Rooted enemies will probably rip you a new one. You'll be safe from KB and Immobs, but I really don't think that the Mag 2 Hold protection in Acro will save you. I'd sooner go with toggling and detoggling Rooted than having to retoggle Mud Pots every time a Hold is thrown your way.
@EarthWyrm: Thanks for the reminder about Mud Pots. I had forgotten that offensive togges DO get detoggled by mez effects.
Regarding why I asked for feedback, I *am* very interested in hearing what other players have to say about this idea. I don't want to do something that's going to completely bone my build, but I need to find a way to keep this toon playable and not be annoyed by the its detriments. My concept is Kin/Earth... specific powers aren't factors in the concept, so there's no conflict between Rooted (or any other powers in the set) and the concept.
What are the binds that you use? In all my years of playing, I haven't done much with them myself, but if they can help make the toon more survivable and retain the fun-factor, I'm up for trying them.
@Goshnova: I've considered dealing with toggling Rooted on and off between spawns, but it just seems like too much of a hassle. There's always the chance of being mezzed right as you leap into a group, before the power activates. Other annoyances with that system are having to chase running mobs or needing to (quickly) get closer to an ally who's taking too much aggro (and out of taunt range). All that detoggling, waiting for the power to recharge, and retoggling seems like too much micromanagement to me. I just wanna be able to jump in and start swinging, not jump in and fortify defenses. I also do quite a bit of soloing, so having a build that requires me to have a teammate with SB is out of the question.
Regarding Granite Armor, yes, I thought it was a click power (it was quite awhile back, wasn't it?) that turned off all of your other toggles (which you'd have to turn back on once Granite wore off). Since Granite is a toggle, I'm much less opposed to taking it, but I have to ask: What's the point of having *any* other Stone powers if you can just run with Granite on constantly? What's the drawback of it, other than the damage and movement debuffs?
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If you insist on going this route, take a look at adding an Aegis unique, and as many Impervious Skin Globals as possible. You could probably get about 50% mez reduction to all by going that route:: 7.5% x (Granite, Tough, Magma, Stone Skin) and 20% Aegis.
Glad to see you're open to other options.
For Rooted I use:
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And for Granite:|
W "powexec_toggleon rooted" SHIFT+W "powexec_toggleoff rooted$$powexec_toggleon Insert travel power here" |
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W "powexec_toggleon granite armor" SHIFT+W "powexec_toggleoff granite armor$$powexec_toggleon Insert travel power here" |
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You don't have to be a slave to concept if you use a bit of creativity, especially in the age of power customisation.|
Originally Posted by Shellback
1. The set fits the toon concept. (This reason trumps all others, really.)
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Is it the rock armour that fits the concept? How about having an alternate costume that uses the stone textures, and then picking a powerset equally suitable (like invuln) that you don't dislike playing?
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I played a /SR Stalker to 50 without taking Mez protection and that worked.
However, I don't think I'd try it on a Stone Brute.
I got away with it by being softcapped to Melee, Ranged and AoE, and being down the bottom of any enemies threat list on a team. Solo, I could generally take out mezzers in one shot or at least disable them with a stun. Ranged mezzers alos didn't see me coming until I was in their face attacking.
At least you can build up some high S/L defence, but I forsee you having a hard time with ranged exotic mez - eg Mind Control powers, Rikti stun blasts, Freakshow Tesla cages, Devouring Earth mushroom spores and a whole heap of others.
Do give it a try though, at least. Its always fun to push received wisdom a little and see where it takes you. At worse, it'll cost you time, frustration and a respec.
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Also shield defense has a stone shield option.
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Originally Posted by Tangler
Is it the rock armour that fits the concept? How about having an alternate costume that uses the stone textures, and then picking a powerset equally suitable (like invuln) that you don't dislike playing?
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Culex's resistance guide
I personally think this is a horrible idea. I know you said you were making this for concept, so why don't you share your concept and we can help you pick set that will fit that.
I just think that playing Stone Armor without two of the set defining powers, Rooted and Granite, is going to be an exercise in frustration when your performance is going to be extremely bad. This will make the character not fun to play and will eventually lead to deletion.
Wait...you want to skip Rooted AND Granite just because of the movement penalty?
And you don't want to deal with IOs?
And you don't want to take teleport?
What does stone have that fits your concept that cannot be achieved with any of the other defensive sets?
In time, I'll come to forgive you.
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Whoa, I missed the part where they denied wanting Granite.|
Originally Posted by Gruumch
I personally think this is a horrible idea. I know you said you were making this for concept, so why don't you share your concept and we can help you pick set that will fit that.
I just think that playing Stone Armor without two of the set defining powers, Rooted and Granite, is going to be an exercise in frustration when your performance is going to be extremely bad. This will make the character not fun to play and will eventually lead to deletion. |
That's like saying "I want to fly a plane, but without wings, an engine, or any form of streamlining." It just won't happen and you'll look ridiculous trying.
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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My concept is simply this: "a melee toon with kinetic and earth powers." That is all. Rooted isn't going against my concept. I just don't like the thought of dealing with the speed penalty. And he's a mutant, so having a stone shield doesn't really fit as well as body armor does.|
Originally Posted by Redd35
Wait...you want to skip Rooted AND Granite just because of the movement penalty?
And you don't want to deal with IOs? And you don't want to take teleport? What does stone have that fits your concept that cannot be achieved with any of the other defensive sets? |
The rest of what you said is correct. No IO sets. No Teleport. A stone armor toon shouldn't be *required* to use those things in order to be playable and fun.
And I'd still like to hear an answer to my earlier question: Since Granite is a toggle (as opposed to a click with a crash, as I thought it was), I'm much less opposed to taking it, but I have to ask: What's the point of having *any* other Stone powers if you can just run with Granite on constantly? What's the drawback of it, other than the damage and movement debuffs?
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Only ones I can think of are:|
Originally Posted by Shellback
And I'd still like to hear an answer to my earlier question: Since Granite is a toggle (as opposed to a click with a crash, as I thought it was), I'm much less opposed to taking it, but I have to ask: What's the point of having *any* other Stone powers if you can just run with Granite on constantly? What's the drawback of it, other than the damage and movement debuffs?
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- You don't get it until level 38, so you'd have to respec then.
- If you exemp below 33 to do a SF/TF, you lose access to it.
- It might be worthwhile to switch from Granite to regular armors + Minerals if you're up against heavy psi-wielding enemies
There's Damage, Movement, and Recharge debuffs in exchange for survivability that is one of the highest in the game, even on SOs. Of course, you don't get it on a Brute until lvl 38, you lose it if you exemp to lvl 33, and sometimes Psy damage can be a problem.
For my first post-GR toon, I've made a Kinetic Melee/Stone Armor brute... and I don't plan on giving him Rooted.
In the past, every time I've tried playing a stone tank/brute, I stop playing the toon very soon after they get Rooted. I just can't stand the speed penalty and I strongly dislike the idea of being "forced" to take Teleport as a travel power... with any build.
So, I'll be skipping Rooted. My toon will be a Super Jumper and he'll have some Immobilization resistance from Combat Jumping, some Sleep resistance from Health, and at lvl 22 he'll get Acrobatics, which will protect him from Holds and Knockback. He'll be vulnerable to Stuns, but since those don't drop toggles anymore (and since he'll have above average defense from said toggles), I don't think it'll be much of a worry. I can just keep a few Break Frees on hand at all times.
I'm very curious to see how much of a difference it'll make in the build. Out of the 10 base ATs, over half of them don't have access to ANY status protection toggle powers until their mid 40s (in their epic/patron pools). IMHO, no toon is *required* to have status protection in order to be fun to play and having my mobility unhindered will definitely increase the playability of this toon for me.
So now... who here thinks this is a horrible, HORRIBLE idea? :-p If anyone has tried an unrooted build before, I'd love to hear about it so I know what I'm getting myself into.
Thanks!
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