Defense-based toons pretty much useless?
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2010-08-14 08:57 in Player Questions
I won't argue this at all. 
Shields is generally considered the greatest power gaming secondary.. It happens to be... DEFENSE!
Defense based sets build for regen btw.
Shields and SR are still two of the best secondary in the game for Scrappers. Yes other can build good +def but I don't think they can soft capped all 3 defense like Shields and SR can and still have room to put lots of Recharge and +regen in your build.
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I like my sr brute, and love my nin stalkers. I also happen to love my s/l soft capped db/wp scrap :P
As for soft capping squishies... besides going s/l it's rather annoying to do. I tend to get 35% ranged def on my corrs and call it a day.
<:[ shark goes nom nom nom ]:>
[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]
Defense is simply better mitigation than resistance for anybody but tanks, and even then, only for a few tanks that can reach the 90% resistance cap. For everyone else, defense prevents more damage.
A resistance based set can become ridiculously more survivable than a defense based set, this is true. See my video for a reference point.
But defense based sets can already be tough enough, which is all you really need. Considering that, they allow for more offensive building. You can get more +recharge, +damage, or +regen and +HP if you really do need more survivability.
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Some resistance based toons can build for softcap to either 1 position (usually melee) or 2 types (usually smashing/lethal) only, but it usually results in a horribly gimped character lacking some key powers in favor of set mules, that also happens to cost an exhorbitant amount of inf.|
Originally Posted by SPiNE
Resistance-based armors can utilize bonuses from IO's to reach the defense soft-cap. This pretty much gives them 2 layers of protection. However, defense-based armors can't get a soft-cap for resistance.
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And there is no such thing as a soft-cap for resistance.
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I wouldn't say "gimped", but I do agree that they tend to cost more.
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Originally Posted by Silverado
Some resistance based toons can build for softcap to either 1 position (usually melee) or 2 types (usually smashing/lethal) only, but it usually results in a horribly gimped character lacking some key powers in favor of set mules, that also happens to cost an exhorbitant amount of inf.
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<:[ shark goes nom nom nom ]:>
[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]
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I agree with Shields being good, but that's because Shields pretty much have a little bit of everything, it's not purely defense.|
Originally Posted by BrokenPrey
Shields and SR are still two of the best secondary in the game for Scrappers. Yes other can build good +def but I don't think they can soft capped all 3 defense like Shields and SR can and still have room to put lots of Recharge and +regen in your build.
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However, let's talk about a pure defense-based armor set, Super Reflex. It requires you to take pretty much all 9 powers, it has no self heal, no +regen, no utility powers, just a +20% recharge power. It's pretty much just soft-cap defense...that pretty much anyone can reach with IO's.
My MAIN point is that it just doesn't make sense for armor sets that are specifically built for defense to simply be matched by other power sets that aren't even meant for defense, along with other archetypes that were not meant to have that much survivability.
I'm sure when the Devs created Blasters, they did not meant for it to have as much defense as a defense-based Tank...and yes, many Blasters do build for defense soft-cap now.
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I would.
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Originally Posted by TamakiRevolution
I wouldn't say "gimped"
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You don't need them all just 8, but to me that is a good thing saying that the Set is good having only one power that sucks. |
Originally Posted by SPiNE
However, how is SR any good? It requires you to take pretty much all 9 powers, it has no self heal, no +regen, no utility powers, just a +20% recharge power. It's pretty much just soft-cap defense...that pretty much anyone can reach with IO's.
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It gives you Soft capped defense for little with IO. As Silverado said you need to go out of your way to get just one defense up on other sets.
Also cascade defense failure sucks for all the other too. SR as 95% DDR with just SO.
If you still think SR sucks ask the Scrapper forums which would be the best for solo AV. They will say Shields if you have the inf and then SR. Because it is really easy to get soft capped defense and then a good attack chain.
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No. Just. No.
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Originally Posted by SPiNE
However, let's talk about a pure defense-based armor set, Super Reflex. It requires you to take pretty much all 9 powers, it has no self heal, no +regen, no utility powers, just a +20% recharge power. It's pretty much just soft-cap defense...that pretty much anyone can reach with IO's.
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Sr is nice mainly because it's so cheap to softcap. It frees up a lot of slots so you can perma hasten. It does kind of suck that you need 8/9 powers from it though, but not needing it's tier 9/crash is nice. My only sr is a dm brute, so I have a heal, and ball of lightning makes me feel less st-ish in higher lvls.
-- Also forgot the ddr is awesome.
<:[ shark goes nom nom nom ]:>
[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]
I have to agree with Silverado here.
Unless you can prove that a disproportionally large number of players are actually playing soft capped builds (resistance based) I wouldn't call this problem. If you ask me, I'd say only a few percent of the players actually have that kind of builds outside Mid's and test server.
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I have yet to see a Soft capped blaster to all 3(Melee, Range, AoE) and still put out over 200DPS.
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Originally Posted by SPiNE
I'm sure when the Devs created Blasters, they did not meant for it to have as much defense as a defense-based Tank...and yes, many Blasters do build for defense soft-cap now.
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Eh, I think it depends on the toon/shield. Wp is nice for softcapping without really having to gimp a toon. Now fa or ela... that's a different story.
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Originally Posted by Silverado
I would.
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<:[ shark goes nom nom nom ]:>
[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]
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This. I can softcap a /SR stalker off level 50 common IOs, plus a Steadfast Unique. For any other /SR toon, I need to add a set of Gaussian's or a Gladiator's Armor +def or one set each of Mako's Bite, Scirocco's Dervish and Touch of Death. The Glad Armor method is ridiculously expensive, but the rest are really cheap, compared to trying something similar on a set with little or no native defense.|
Originally Posted by TamakiRevolution
Sr is nice mainly because it's so cheap to softcap.
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| -- Also forgot the ddr is awesome. |
@Roderick
I agree that only a small percentage of the player population actually has the time and money to soft cap defense on a resistance-based toon or a Blaster. However, it's still possible to do this. I'm mainly still playing my level 50 Elec Armor Tank because I'm still working on soft-capping his defense.
If we're looking at just survivability here, resistance-based toon still has a much higher potential than defense-based toon mainly because of the possibilty to soft-cap defense.
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Originally Posted by Nerfed2Hell
I won't argue this at all.
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Rarely does a melee set with defense only have defense (Super Reflexes being an exception, but it has higher base defense and DDR to help with this... and I think this is also why it is not yet a Tanker set). Most of the time they have some lower resists added in, some +hp, that sort of thing. So, they can get to the defense cap more easily since they have inherent defense (and DDR... my Fire/Fire tank with some defense wishes he had DDR as well to help out on ITFs and the like), but they also have other abilities to build off of. Invuln and sets with similar powers can make Dull Pain recharge faster, many defense sets can benefit from Tough, etc.|
Originally Posted by SPiNE
I agree that only a small percentage of the player population actually has the time and money to soft cap defense on a resistance-based toon or a Blaster. However, it's still possible to do this. I'm mainly still playing my level 50 Elec Armor Tank because I'm still working on soft-capping his defense.
If we're looking at just survivability here, resistance-based toon still has a much higher potential than defense-based toon mainly because of the possibilty to soft-cap defense. |
Sets that only have resistance are at something of a disadvantage, actually. They're usually considered as more offensive (elec and fiery aura), so they have lower resists from the start. And having only resists means you will get pasted by every attack out there, as well as their accompanying debuffs. If you don't think this is an issue, try playing a Kheldian in Nova form, a Tanker in Fiery Aura, etc., against Council. Those Marksman and Galaxies will slow you up considerably. Now switch to a character with defense and go up in the same situation: you WILL notice a difference.
Resist sets also cannot do much to help out their resistance. Other than Tough, there aren't very many ways to do this (and Fiery Aura can still only get to 70% resists or so to S/L). So they can't capitalize on their strength very much. Whereas a set with more defense can easily capitalize on their strength, while easily having room to grab tough, focus on recharge bonuses, etc.
And therein is the huge difference. I could bother trying to get to the defense cap to S/L on my Fiery Aura Tanker, but I probably would have to give up the survivability I have built in for him against Psychic foes, have no recharge, etc. Defense based sets have a lot more options in their builds if they want to go for softcap. Builds without inherent defense don't have DDR to back it up, will have to work a lot harder to get to the softcap, and give up something to get to that point.
You can't paint it all rosy one way. Defense sets have their pros and cons, as do resist sets. That's not useless or necessarily an advantage, that's a balanced difference, part of what makes CoX so replayable on different characters.
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Nobody's brought up that at low HP, /SR has moderate resistance? Huh.
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I looked at the title, and the first words that came to mind were "Well, this guy's never seen me tank an ITF..."
I think a lot of people are thinking that I'm saying defense-based armors suck. This isn't what I'm saying at all. In fact, if you go to the Archetypes and Powers Discussion part of the forums, you'll see that I'm very excited making my Ice Armor Tank :]. Sure, the title may suggest otherwise, but it's just to grab the readers' attention.
Still, I'm saying that resistance-based armors have more potential to become better from IO bonuses. If we're just comparing resistance armor with defense armor without any set bonuses from IO's, then yes defense-based armors would be just as good if not better...but IO's and set bonuses change everything.
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Heh, I've done that with a level 42 Shield/Fire tank and a 45 BS/Shield scrapper.|
Originally Posted by runt9
I looked at the title, and the first words that came to mind were "Well, this guy's never seen me tank an ITF..."
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High levels of defense really are a game changing thing; a character who's at 45% def to a damage type is as durable as one with 90% resistance to that damage type. Sets that combine defense (first line) with resistance (second line) and a bit of regeneration (third line) are incredibly tough, nearly on the order of issue 4 Invulnerability tanker tough.
In case anyone wasn't around then, in issue 3-4 an Invulnerability tanker could easily reach 90% resistance to all damage but psi and also had massive amounts of defense to all damage. I could, at that time, herd up 200+ mobs (no aggro cap then) and go AFK for several hours and when I came back I still had 200+ mobs beating on me and my health was full.
Back then defense was figured differently as well and wasn't as effective as it is now, many players looked at defense sets as gimped and squishy. It wasn't until issue 7 that we got the defense system we have today that suddenly made previously under performing sets like SR become godlike.
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The op demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of how defense works in this game. Softcapping isn't easy. And it's harder still when you don't have a base to work from. +3 defense is worth 3-5 billion inf. Sure, a resist based character who got all of the same defense as a SR would be incredible, but that's not actually an option in the game. And "layered" defensive powers isn't necessarily good with the way defense stacks. Even if my shield defender could stack resist as easily as defense, I wouldn't bother with it. Those extra 2-3 percents in defense offer me more mitigation than 20% in a resist would.
Ok, well not useless but just simply doesn't benefit much from IO bonuses. When people go for IO bonuses, it's usually either for more global +recharge or more positional defense and maybe +regen.
This topic is more related toward toons with Armor either for primary or secondary, such as Tankers and Scrappers.
Resistance-based armors can utilize bonuses from IO's to reach the defense soft-cap. This pretty much gives them 2 layers of protection. However, defense-based armors can't get a soft-cap for resistance.
I don't know about you, but that seems blatantly unfair. An entire power set, dedicated to to defense can be matched by another power set that's not even intended for defense in the first place? Something's wrong with that. As far as I know, any resistance-based armor can reach the defense soft-cap with IO's. What about defense-based armor? They can't reach the resistance soft-cap with IO's.
Oh, but it doesn't end there. Even Blasters and other archetypes without an armor set can reach the defense soft cap as well.
Pretty much in my eyes, defensive-based toons are great...they just aren't that great anymore ever since IO's and set bonuses came out.