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There was never really any contrary rule. I don't see KM's stun durations out of line of some other sets, except for MA itself which at this point I'm filing away under "inexplicable" and calling it a day.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
Looking at KM, it seems that Castle seems to have decided that long durations (roughly equivalent to recharge time) in attack powers should now be something of a "normal" thing. I expect for other effects to get similar treatment (high comparative uptimes) whenever sets get reviewed.
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The problem isn't that it's an axe kick, the problem is the awkward two-step hitch in the middle of the animation. Why does the animation have you lift your right leg up almost to head height, drop it down on the left, then lift it back up to head height and perform the actual kick? It's ridiculous looking.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
ditto...its like people pick up CAK and expect the animation to be you punting an axe at someone's face.
It's an Axe Kick, people. |
There's gotta be a way to animate an axe kick that doesn't include that strange looking stutter-step. If the animation killed the first half-kick and simply smoothly transitioned from the ready stance to the 'foot cocked on the left side' pose and then animated the kick, I would have no problems with it at all.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
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My guess is that an actual axe kick would look boring and be too quick given the animation time requirements. Actual Axe Kicks have to happen almost instantaneously or else they are suicidal. In expanding the animation, they made something that was longer, but also weirder.|
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
The problem isn't that it's an axe kick, the problem is the awkward two-step hitch in the middle of the animation. Why does the animation have you lift your right leg up almost to head height, drop it down on the left, then lift it back up to head height and perform the actual kick? It's ridiculous looking.
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In the past, it was also actually longer by about half a second: there was an even longer pause in mid kick which made it look visually even more goofy. BaB sped it up a bit when he tightened up the MA animations back around I11 or so (when he was also working on weapon redraw buffering).
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It's a high kick feint > axe kick. It's actually a good way to perform one as, if you're just going to bring your leg down on someone, you have to be blindingly fast or the target isn't seeing it coming.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
My guess is that an actual axe kick would look boring and be too quick given the animation time requirements. Actual Axe Kicks have to happen almost instantaneously or else they are suicidal. In expanding the animation, they made something that was longer, but also weirder.
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I'm not arguing the opinion of the look of the power, but it *is* an axe kick. Personally, when you've got legs flying, alternating feet, etc., them come in with CAK, it makes the character look faster than the target, IMO...at least now that the entire set flows so quickly.
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Be that as it may, I'd still like to see the animation be significantly changed. What they have now just looks goofy. Maybe use ...|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
It's a high kick feint > axe kick. It's actually a good way to perform one as, if you're just going to bring your leg down on someone, you have to be blindingly fast or the target isn't seeing it coming.
I'm not arguing the opinion of the look of the power, but it *is* an axe kick. Personally, when you've got legs flying, alternating feet, etc., them come in with CAK, it makes the character look faster than the target, IMO...at least now that the entire set flows so quickly. |
Jerk 4 Life
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Problem is, that's not an axe kick. It does look a lot better than what we've got now, but I don't think they'd use it, especialy since it looks like it ought to do two separate ticks of damage instead of one.
Leo, all I'm saying is that, regardless of the realism of the move, to me it looks very jerky and awkward. Given the meaning of the phrase 'axe kick', it should be possible to make a less strange looking alternate animation that still fits the power's name.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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While there was never any contrary rule, the general gist of stun secondary effects was that they were either substantially shorter than their recharge time or they had a completely pitiful chance of occuring. With Cobra Strike and most of the stunning Kinetic Melee attacks, the chances to proc are both higher and provide longer comparative stun times than the attacks of other sets with stun as a secondary effect (consider Energy Melee and War Mace), which suggests that Castle would likely increase those same capabilities if sets with stuns (and potentially other mezzes as well) were reexamined (likely because the secondary effects of attacks that are primary damage dealers are virtually never actually slotted for said effect due to not having enough slots to get to them so there isn't a point in balancing them against a higher assumed value like you would with damage).
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
There was never really any contrary rule. I don't see KM's stun durations out of line of some other sets, except for MA itself which at this point I'm filing away under "inexplicable" and calling it a day.
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Not to mention that it would also suggest more KB/KU than immobilization.
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Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Problem is, that's not an axe kick. It does look a lot better than what we've got now, but I don't think they'd use it, especialy since it looks like it ought to do two separate ticks of damage instead of one.
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I hear where you're coming from. Logging in and just watching the animation repeat in the character creator, I can understand how it can look awkward. Just watching the animation at face value or simply using the power like a regular attack (like I do), one wouldn't appreciate fully that what you're actually doing is faking the enemy out so the blow lands like you want.|
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Leo, all I'm saying is that, regardless of the realism of the move, to me it looks very jerky and awkward. Given the meaning of the phrase 'axe kick', it should be possible to make a less strange looking alternate animation that still fits the power's name.
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But bringing back some of the stuff Arcana said, 'just an axe kick' would probably be far too fast for how much damage the attack does (now), not to mention, if it animates too fast, you lose flavor.
Random aside; I don't like Katana as much as I used to. With the speeding up of the attacks (I think they did it twice, once for all weapon sets then again for katana specifically), my favorite attack, Soaring Dragon, is just so blindingly fast now, it looks like a plain vanilla upward diagonal slash. It used to look like you were combining an evasive maneuver with some tactics, concealing the blade in the blind spot of your enemy behind you as you dodge to the right. Then, with some momentum, bring up the blade with speed and force and at an angle the enemy wasn't expecting to send the foe flying. Now, I can't see this barely if at all except the resulting strike, especially if I have another attack queued up...That said, I'm all for alternate animations that give different flavors of an Axe Kick. Actually, I'd really want another that is more acrobatic for my monkey scrapper. There are other options that could work:
-Flying Axe Kick = that extra feint you don't like is more obvious as after you bring it up you switch feet and kick with the other foot while in the air.
-Spinning Axe Kick = basically an axe kick but with a turn, bringing your eyes around first then following with the kick. Possibly put a jump in there to make it cooler looking
-Aerial Axe Kick = looks more like a trick to me as I've never actually practiced or been taught such a thing but it basically a front flip ending in an axe kick-like attack...I'd actually use that on my monkey scrapper ^_^
-Falling Axe Kick = As performed by Tsunade. Basically leaping up like in Eagle's Claw but falling with the kick.
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Flying might work. Spinning Axe Kick would make it too much like Storm Kick is now, unfortunately, and I don't see Storm Kick being changed at all for CAK (though its animation has been completely redone before). Aerial I think would be great.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
That said, I'm all for alternate animations that give different flavors of an Axe Kick. Actually, I'd really want another that is more acrobatic for my monkey scrapper. There are other options that could work:
-Flying Axe Kick = that extra feint you don't like is more obvious as after you bring it up you switch feet and kick with the other foot while in the air. -Spinning Axe Kick = basically an axe kick but with a turn, bringing your eyes around first then following with the kick. Possibly put a jump in there to make it cooler looking -Aerial Axe Kick = looks more like a trick to me as I've never actually practiced or been taught such a thing but it basically a front flip ending in an axe kick-like attack...I'd actually use that on my monkey scrapper ^_^ -Falling Axe Kick = As performed by Tsunade. Basically leaping up like in Eagle's Claw but falling with the kick. |
Tsunade's attacks on principle I would say No, as she's clearly more Super Strength than Martial Arts. I also say No because I like the fast nature of MA (Tier 9 aside), and doing that treatment to it would slow it down a lot for flare, and I tend to think MA does well at having flare without taking ten minutes to do so.
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If that's a problem, then you've got 2 feet. Storm Kick's animation is like a clockwise roundhouse kick with the right? Well Spinning Axe Kick could be a counter-clockwise kick with the left. Other differences is, Storm Kick is more of a horizontal angled attack while the SAK would be more lateral (and slower because of the animation time of current CAK).|
Originally Posted by Stolid
Spinning Axe Kick would make it too much like Storm Kick is now, unfortunately, and I don't see Storm Kick being changed at all for CAK (though its animation has been completely redone before).
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[EDIT]Now that I think about it, you *might* even be able to substitute a hook kick in there too...might not convey immobilization as much but the punch animation we got doesn't either.
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| Tsunade's attacks on principle I would say No, as she's clearly more Super Strength than Martial Arts. I also say No because I like the fast nature of MA (Tier 9 aside), and doing that treatment to it would slow it down a lot for flare, and I tend to think MA does well at having flare without taking ten minutes to do so. |
Tsunade's Painful Sky Leg attack, if animated in CoH, would look slower because there's less to animate. It'd most likely look like the character is hanging in the air longer than natural because the animation would have to be stretched to the same length as CAK.
A few things. With CAK being such a heavy hitting attack, it actually boosts Eagle's Claw since you now have an obvious follow up; either CAK or for AoE Dragon's Tail.
As for attack chains, the Eagle's Claw attack chains are only slightly behind the top chains. At least using the attack won't be gimp and adds some AoE love. Since my post on decent MA attack chains was quoted earlier in the thread I won't repeat it here, but there are decent attack chains with EC in them.
As for MA/DA, an EC -> CAK -> CS -> SK chain should be able to keep a boss stunned like 90% of the time and gain even more mitigation from the fact that the aforementioned attack chain will kill the boss much much faster than any current attack chain. With it's much longer recharge and the badness of EC the MA/DA stun chain previously was just bad and had a much longer time to kill over a new and improved chain.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
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I love the new MA changes. I've found my MA/WP scrapper on live slightly disappointing after playing him on beta, and he's already pretty powerful on live. I already have cobra strike on live, but now I can use it in my attack chain instead of air superiority. Air superiority is a great attack, but I never liked how it flowed, or didn't flow, with my MA attacks.
Now I'll have Cobra strike, with 75% stun and a Kinetic Combat knockdown proc, storm kick with the kd proc, crane kick with it's knockback, dragon's tail with it's AOE knockdown, and eagle's claw with it's chance for stun. All of that mitigation plus great damage, nearly capped hit points, high regen and 30%+ typed defenses. Yes this should be fun. 
Definitely going to respec, change some powers and their order. Currently I use fly for travel, but with the fly changes a jet pack is only about 3 or 4 mph slower so I may drop the flight pool. That gives me two more power picks, three if I also drop SoW, which I never use. I agree that the default animation for CAK is unappealing, but I may put it in and see how it works, maybe it'll grow on me. That leaves one or two more, maybe stealth to stack with the IO, and/or maybe some toys from weapon mastery? Hmm.
Sorry that I derailed the thread into animation discussion but if you're looking to get CAK changed, might want to suggest it in the thread Castle made today.
Just a heads up...
Hm, I never was able to get a copy of my MA to test, in two seconds (post EC) you can get storm kick off and start on CAK, when does the crit get evaluated?
i.e. Can you potentially get boosted crit on both SK and CAK? I'm assuming that is not the case, but havent seen anyone specifically say so.
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No. The crit buff actually starts about 1.3 seconds after *activation* of EC, not at the end of EC. There's only about a half second from the end of EC where you can activate an attack and be buffed. And in actual testing, it seems that if you haven't started queuing the attack by the time Eagle's Claw visually looks like its about to hit the target, the delay from the time you try to start the attack until when the command reaches the servers will be enough to cause the attack to fall outside the buff. In other words, the only safe bet is to queue an attack while Eagle's Claw is running, relatively early.|
Originally Posted by Quatermain
Hm, I never was able to get a copy of my MA to test, in two seconds (post EC) you can get storm kick off and start on CAK, when does the crit get evaluated?
i.e. Can you potentially get boosted crit on both SK and CAK? I'm assuming that is not the case, but havent seen anyone specifically say so. |
I've sent all my timing calculations and test results to Castle, and I'm hoping to squeeze at least another quarter of a second duration on the buff to buy more time to get that next attack off. I think that part of the problem is that what we see is delayed slightly from what the server knows (this is not quite the same thing as "lag" but a rather different offset) which exacerbates the problem, but I haven't fully quantified that yet. My hunch is that there's an additional quarter of a second in there to be had, meaning it would be safe to increase the buff duration by a full half second. Doesn't sound like much, but it would make a big difference: it would double the margin for error on starting the next attack.
The bottom line is that the intent is to only buff one attack, and the timing reflects that. But its just a bit too aggressively short in my opinion.
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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Wishes the def debuff in CAK took enhancements...
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I don't understand this perspective, and I disagree with it.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Then they should have waited. Let's face it, everybody's going to be playing with the new shiny anyway, and people who already play MA have been waiting for years for buffs, we can wait a little longer if it means they'll do it right.
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I am very pleased with improvement. I've been waiting a long time for some improvement to MA, and I'm not willing to wait an unknown number of years for them to arrive when they're being offered now.
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American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
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WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
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Shadowslip: 50 DDC
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I think everyone wishes it did, and likely for the same reason.
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Originally Posted by doomrider
Wishes the def debuff in CAK took enhancements...
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Still think EC is getting crap...
Thanks Arcana, much appreciated.
I love the changes.
I have been preparing my MA/WP character since the moment I saw them coming.
He is already pretty much unstoppable and now he will get more damage.
What's not to like?
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
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