Blueside Hami Raid Poll

Yes, mostly for the social aspect. I would like to get Merits/Hamis on my namesake but...I don't need either.

No...well...I run a one-person SG atm and most of my evenings are PvP/real life based. Even if I wanted to run one, I doubt I could pull more than 10-20 people in there and the coordination...yeah...I don't think so.

I'll gladly help though, as always, on any night I don't have a PvP event; EoE gathering, cheerleading, bubbling, whatever...just give me some notice and I'll try to help.

Edit:A reason I haven't been to a lot of raids, outside the above, was because of the perceived time commitment (one hour or so). If raids really are 18-40 minutes long these days, that would definitely be an incentive for myself. With the old raid day being Sunday, I can attend most of these.

Thanks to you too

Not so much. The raids are way simple and don't require the coordination that people try to pretend like they do. I mean 10-15 person raids have been done by multiple groups on multiple servers. Pretty safe to say several people in any given raid could be doing their own thing or on their own teams and not impact anything. To be blunt raids are not even griefable any more. The good old days, people could impact the success or failure of a raid. Now, not so much. A few people not helping or doing their own thing shouldn't impact how smoothly the raid goes. If leaders make that big of a deal of it they need to wake up to reality that its impossible to control that many people in an MMO and really get over themselves for thinking they should be able to.

I beg to differ. We used to run 2 raids on Saturdays and fill up a 200 person zone quite often. The reason redside raids are harder to fill up is simply that a lot less players actually play redside actively.

Thank you for the consideration Amy. :-)

As far as the OP.

1) Are you interested in seeing regularly scheduled blueside Hami raids come back? Why/why not? I am beyond burned out on them but quick and efficient ones with no drama would be nice.

2) Are you interested in leading Hami raids/a raid team? Why/why not? I can lead whatever and am willing to with some notice.

I did talk to one raid leader who said his SG raids privately with 25 people, but these people have toons IOd specifically for this purpose, something you wouldn't necessarily get at any given raid. Otherwise, I haven't heard of other servers completing small raids of 10-15 people or how long it took them, but when we did it it took us an hour and 42 minutes. I've been operating under the assumption that the majority of raiders would rather not spend that much time at a raid if it can be done faster. I'll use Neuronia as an example of this:

Some folks simply do not want to spend that much time or can't. This is why we try to get them done fast.

It's possible the raid might not fail completely due to a few rogues, but there's no arguing that when people work together and are on the same page, things get done faster. Also, I don't think the 16 or so people carrying the raid would appreciate the rest of the raiders doing whatever they wanted.


Why is it then, that I've heard from people recently that some servers still cannot complete raids, or their raids take them 3-4 hours on top of taking an hour to form up? Again, there's a big difference between success/failure and an efficient raid.

It seems that the people who take issue with how the raids are done take issue with the fact that they are structured. At least, this is what I am getting from this thread and conversations I've had. The structure is simply in place with the intention of helping people and helping the raid go smoothly. For example, I once went to a raid on another server and asked the team leader what was going on and some basic questions. Their response was to ask the raid leader, and they were unwilling to help me out. This was the type of situation I wanted to avoid for new raiders.

When I first started leading raids, I took a look at how previous raid leaders had done them. I saw that Kat's raids were very organized and considered this a strength to the raid. In pre i9 raids, it was also quite common to have AT themed teams, such as the Blaster team. This is not unlike how we have it set up now.

Ultimately, I think structure, while not needed is extremely valuable. However, the goal behind the raids is to make them enjoyable for people. If folks believe we are at the point where structure is no longer desired, perhaps I will take the initiative and look into strategies involving free form teams.

I was not here for the raid ran on Champion. I however have been on one on Freedom and Virtue that were both under 20 people. 1 took about an hour and a half and the other took right at an hour. Agreed that people don't want to spend that long doing regular raids. That being said though the fact that they can be done that quickly for so few people does reiterate the fact that a "few" people not participating or doing their own thing when there are 40-50 people in the zone should not impact the raid that much or be that big of a deal.

Agreed. I don't think there has ever been a problem of 16 people carrying a 50 person raid. I have seen several 50 person raids where 5-10 people are not participating, or doing there own thing or have a few selfish people duel boxing to be greedy. "If" leadership is organized and knows what they are doing that would not impact the raid much. Do the people participating resent those not ? Of course but that is all part of an MMO and playing in an uncontrollable environment.

There are lots of servers that haven't managed to either figure out how to raid efficiently or been doing it regularly to get to the point that Champion is at. When the new raid system came out it took us a few hours from start to finish. The time decreased not because anyone figured out any magical way of doing it faster but more so because the people doing them and the people leading them got the swing of it. Efficiency came from good leaders and repetition of it being done. We are not nor have we ever been in the predicament of other servers so when I say raids technically cannot be grief-ed I am speaking about Champion. I am also speaking in terms of a comparison of new raids to old raids. We used to have people pulling monsters etc. An entire SG not only not helping but actually griefing us. So yeah compared to other servers and old raids there really is nothing a handful of people can do to the current Champion raids.

I don't think structure is anything anyone has or had a problem with. From what I have seen and heard the problem is more about community raids being canceled or put on hold due to a couple of people not following instructions. IMHO the show must go on regardless if there is a few hecklers in the audience or not. With 40+ people actually contributing and doing things right the few that are not shouldn't be allowed to ruin the good times for everyone else. A good leader should be able to work around the few people not following the format. You are a good leader so I am sure we are in agreement on that point.

The fact that the raid leaders decided to stop leading isn't the reason there isn't any more raid on champion. If people wanted to raid they can, the raids leaders at the time didn't say no one could raid, only that they wouldn't lead them anymore. If someone wants to raid, then start one, lead one and raid. No one is there to stop them. The raid leaders did work around the few people not following, but after a while got tired of it and simply stopped leading. They also said on multiple occasion that if anyone wanted to take their place they would be willing to help them learn and would gladly give them their shot at leading. If no one stepped up, they can't force someone to pick the weekly raid.

Can you honestly blame them for getting tired after more than a year of weekly leading the raids?

At least this is what I understood of what was going on.

This is a good point and you're right, several raids have gone on regardless of a few hecklers, precisely because 40+ people were contributing. The only raid that was ever put on hold was one I lead, and I did so because at the time there were approximately 34 people in zone, 8 of which were on a mixed team and had ATs that were needed on other teams. At the time I was also getting tells from people on that team saying they were new and didn't know what was going on. That left only 26 people potentially supporting the raid. So the logical choice at the time given the circumstances was to get those people on proper teams and have the teams properly supported. I wouldn't have gone ahead with a raid when the important teams weren't filled up anyways, because I think doing that would ruin the fun times for everyone else who was there to give it an honest effort. That was the only instance a raid was put on hold, and every other raid has gone ahead as planned when there were enough people in the important raid positions.

Spot on. Thank you for seein' through the ********, 'Hawk.

Saturdays aren't good for me but I do like the idea of helping out the red side raids with a blue side raid as advertising.

This goes hand in hand with what Demon Keeper said on page one... just as people are protective of the "scheduled events times" and discourage people from joining other activities, I've seen people try to start raids at other times and they've been told flat out to stop because they might interfere with the scheduled raid (which isn't happening or is days off).

When I said that the show must go on regardless of whether a few were not participating or following what the leaders wanted them to do I was speaking more in regards to future raids.

If leaders got burned out because they were just burned out at running them that is one thing. I for one can understand that more than probably anyone. To stop because a couple of people weren't following the status quo to me didn't make sense. (Realize I am going by heresay, only the leaders know why they really stopped). I did however pick up on various comments in this thread that seemed to support that many know or believe that to be the reason why.

People are going to do stupid ****, not follow directions and sometimes even intentionally do things to hinder the process of events going as smoothly as they could. It happens, is going to happen and is never going to stop happening. Look past that and move on.

Electro Hawk is right, the old raid leaders stopping doesn't prevent others from stepping up and leading. Just like when every other leader in the past stopped raids could continue to happen if people would step up and lead them. Obviously being this thread is here though and the discussion is even happening tells me that people want raids, the people that used to run them didn't really want to stop. So in the future rather than let a few people ruin your good time, or ruin the good time of the entire server, take it with a grain of salt and just realize everyone cannot be controlled in an uncontrollable environment.

Now if raids were not actually stopped due to a few hecklers then my post is totally wrong and I apologize. I however am not the only person who is under the impression that is why they were stopped. (or at least a contributing factor). Dozens of people have mentioned it over the last few months that they felt they were being punished based on the actions of a few. If I had the time or desire to run raids again I probably would have felt bad and did so for the people that want them. That is not the case so I was just offering my advice or thoughts on the situation.

It was due to a variety of reasons. For one, it was the same group running them weekly or twice a week for over a year. That's a rather large commitment and a cause for burn out. Some of us had RL things come up that took priority. Part of it was that drama in general seemed to increase near the end and it was wearing on everyone, raid leaders and raiders alike. All things considered, it seemed like a good time to take a break and see if others might be interested in leading.

To say people are being punished though, that we're intentionally 'ruining the good time of the entire server', is a bit much. None of us are obligated to keep running them, as it's not a job. Anyone who has participated in raid leadership has done so because he or she volunteered. As ElectroHawk said, anyone is able to raid Hami. Having left the schedule open provides a great opportunity for that.

No one really intended for them to stop completely. That's why we took a hiatus, and instead of a regular schedule, had a few raids here and there to help lessen the burn out. It's been about 2 months, and lately some people have voiced interest. So I figured it would be a good time to find out what people liked about the old raids, what they didn't like, if they're even interested in them, and if others would be interested in leading them. For some people, Hami isn't their cup of tea, and that's cool. I'm just trying to spark some discussion so we can learn from the pros and cons of our past raid experience and move forward with it.

Personally, I'd love to see raids lead by the Champion server, and not just the same people every week. It might not happen, but so far a few people have voiced interest in this thread and in tells.

Well said Hawk.

1) Yes!! If someone were to step up and say they are leading a raid (scheduled or on the fly) and I am not occupied at the time, I would be happy to help out. I have had the opportunity to participate in or team lead pretty much all aspects of the Hami raid and would be happy to share my two bits of knowledge and contribute in any way I can.

2) Yes.... If I lead a Hami raid, however, I want there to be people I know and trust to lead teams and to offer on-the-fly advice when needed. Let's face it, Champion has had awesome Hami Raid leadership in the past (Cherry, Amy, Llewthor, Angie, Kat and who am I missing?) and we have got used to raids going off with seemingly little effort. Those of us who have been in the leader chair know it can be a little stressful to live up to those expectations. But I would hope that those expectations would not deter anyone from trying to lead.

No one expects perfection (although it is a nice surpise when it happens). We are pretty much all along for the ride.

I apologize if I implied that I personally thought that is how it was. I was expressing what I have heard from others. Basically the desire to have raids regularly regardless of what a few party poopers might do.

I think you guys have done great and I have enjoyed every raid I have attended of yours Amy. I have very recently become invigorated by the game again and have 2 toons I am currently working on. I haven't actually played on a daily basis in about a year now so I am glad my interest has been piqued again. That being said I think I could find some time to help lead some, possibly lead some on my own and more importantly help teach others. I haven't attended a blue side raid in quite some time so not sure if things have been done the same as before or not. If you need any help and see me on just hit me up.

I hear that. I've definitely found some new interests and projects due to the raid break, namely PvP. (Woot!) Now that I have a couple toons properly set up for it, it's a lot more fun. Hope to see more people get involved in this aspect of the game as well.

Skippy has to be added to that list. No "good leaders" list for hami raids is complete without him.

You should use some indicator to denote sarcasm, Kat.