Bonefire is the only pre-10 story arc I know of hero-side. There are probably a few more.
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Odd, I just did the Bonefire arc, and that was post-10. I mean they had me fighting skulls and hellions in Perez Park, 20 each. Wes in Steel Canyon gave it to me.
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Originally Posted by Frostbiter
Bonefire is the only pre-10 story arc I know of hero-side. There are probably a few more.
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Yeah I checked and it is post 10. According to Paragonwiki the only storyarcs pre-10 are the Hollows and for Kheldians.
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hero_Story_Arcs
Heroside has less story arcs at low levels outside of the Hollows, but later on, the ones it has give out some pretty ludicrous merit rewards compared to what villains get. The standard rant is usually actually that villains get shafted merit-wise. Not saying that I particularly agree here, but it's the more common complaint.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
With the amount of missions, I did think that hero side would net more merits in the end, but I was just observing it at earlier levels and wanted a confirmation from someone. Danke everyone.
On the other hand, villains only get 7 zones to earn the 5 merit explore accolade to the heroes' 13.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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I know Swellguy. There is a big disparity in the number of missions Red side vs Blueside. Part of me would love a more streamlining effect Blueside to make things simpler, but there is the part of me that likes the variety I feel I do not get redside, even if the missions are glorified radio missions at times, (Blue side I mean.)|
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
On the other hand, villains only get 7 zones to earn the 5 merit explore accolade to the heroes' 13.
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Damn that was a confusing sentence. Let me clarify.
Red side: streamlined missions, earlier story arcs. Fewer over all missions and zones
Blueside: more diverse missions that resemble radio missions, more over all story arcs. More over all missions and zones.
I think villains have a more indepth villain story arc going on then heroes..However due to the lack of size on villains due to heroes, It might be lacking at early lvls but you gain far more then villains (again) do later on.
Glad u mentioned story arc and not said merits in general cos tht would of set a fire going lol
Normally, the complaint about merit parity is about how few redside gets for certain tasks.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
I have to agree that Red side is much harder to accumulate Merits. While it may seem like COV has an advantage with a few short arc early on the Task Forces and Trials on COH vastly outdistance what's available to villains
COH
Positron TF one, 10-15 level, 11 merits
Positron TF two, 11-16 level, 15 merits
Synaspe TF, 15-20 level, 25 merits
Sister Psyche TF, 20-25, 50 merits
Moonfire TF, 23-28 level, 32 merits
E. Hess TF, 25-30 level, 19 merits
Citadel TF, 25-30 level, 40 merits
Manticore TF, 30-35 level, 32 merits
Katy Hannon TF, 30-34 level, 9 merits
Numina TF, 35-40 level, 36 merits
Cave of transcendance Trial, 12-15 level, 8 merits
Eden Trial, 39-41 level, 7 merits
Abandoned Sewer Trial, 38-40 level, 29 merits
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13 TFs/Trials for a total of 313 (only running each one time!)
Tarikoss SF, 15-20 level, 13 merits
Silver Mantius SF, 20-25 level, 42 merits
Oper. Renault SF, 25-30 level, 24 merits
Ice minstral SF, 35-40 level, 26 merits
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4 SFs for a total of 105 merits (only running each one time)
This doesn't include respec trials which are available on both sides or the ITF which both sides can start doing above level 35 in the coop zone.
Also from 40 on up Red side has the Lord Recluse and Baraccuda SFs while Blue has Statesman's TF, Doc Q, Sara Moore, justin Augustine, and Faathima the Kind TFs adding eben MORE oportunities for merits. And don't forget while red side may start story arc off sooner by level 20 there are plenty of contacts out there on COH handing out arcs as well. I also left off the Lady Grey TF/SF here since its available to both in the RWZ.
Someone already mentioned on COH there are 13 zones that give up 5 merits each while only 7 exist on COV and Atlas Park, Galaxy City, Kings Row, Steel Canyon, Skyway City, the Hollows, Faultline are all easily achieved by anyone above 20 level so by then a HERO on blue side has picked up as many merits from exploration badges as a VILLAIN can when they are near 50 and can get the ones in Grandville.
COV has its share of advantages.. fewer zones means less running to get to missions, etc but collecting merits hardly seems like one of them. I have a fairly new Brute at level 24 that has around 70 merits, not bad by red side standards since she hasn't done any SFs yet. A Tank or Scrapper on COH could do both Positrons, Synapse, and Sister P and have 101 without ever doing a single arc from any contact.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
I have to agree that Red side is much harder to accumulate Merits. While it may seem like COV has an advantage with a few short arc early on the Task Forces and Trials on COH vastly outdistance what's available to villains
COH
Positron TF one, 10-15 level, 11 merits
Positron TF two, 11-16 level, 15 merits
Synaspe TF, 15-20 level, 25 merits
Sister Psyche TF, 20-25, 50 merits
Moonfire TF, 23-28 level, 32 merits
E. Hess TF, 25-30 level, 19 merits
Citadel TF, 25-30 level, 40 merits
Manticore TF, 30-35 level, 32 merits
Katy Hannon TF, 30-34 level, 9 merits
Numina TF, 35-40 level, 36 merits
Cave of transcendance Trial, 12-15 level, 8 merits
Eden Trial, 39-41 level, 7 merits
Abandoned Sewer Trial, 38-40 level, 29 merits
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13 TFs/Trials for a total of 313 (only running each one time!)
Tarikoss SF, 15-20 level, 13 merits
Silver Mantius SF, 20-25 level, 42 merits
Oper. Renault SF, 25-30 level, 24 merits
Ice minstral SF, 35-40 level, 26 merits
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4 SFs for a total of 105 merits (only running each one time)
This doesn't include respec trials which are available on both sides or the ITF which both sides can start doing above level 35 in the coop zone.
Also from 40 on up Red side has the Lord Recluse and Baraccuda SFs while Blue has Statesman's TF, Doc Q, Sara Moore, justin Augustine, and Faathima the Kind TFs adding eben MORE oportunities for merits. And don't forget while red side may start story arc off sooner by level 20 there are plenty of contacts out there on COH handing out arcs as well. I also left off the Lady Grey TF/SF here since its available to both in the RWZ.
Someone already mentioned on COH there are 13 zones that give up 5 merits each while only 7 exist on COV and Atlas Park, Galaxy City, Kings Row, Steel Canyon, Skyway City, the Hollows, Faultline are all easily achieved by anyone above 20 level so by then a HERO on blue side has picked up as many merits from exploration badges as a VILLAIN can when they are near 50 and can get the ones in Grandville.
COV has its share of advantages.. fewer zones means less running to get to missions, etc but collecting merits hardly seems like one of them. I have a fairly new Brute at level 24 that has around 70 merits, not bad by red side standards since she hasn't done any SFs yet. A Tank or Scrapper on COH could do both Positrons, Synapse, and Sister P and have 101 without ever doing a single arc from any contact.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
In my experience, Villains have lots of small stories worth a small amount of merits.
Heroes have longer story arcs which can be worth over 20 merits each, especially after level 15. Before 15, especially before 10, Heroes don't really have much story content except filler stuff. (Excluding Hollows).
Generally its easier to get Merits Hero side I find. Between running old Task Forces worth 30-60 Merits or old story arcs through ouroboros worth 20-30, you can pick up a lot of merits. Curiously old content seems to be worth much more merits, some of the new arcs, even Hero side are not worth the time.
Me and my boyfriend regularly do Freaklympics and Freakshow Wars from Ouro, 2 story arcs which are worth 32 and 33 merits each. If we do speed runs, its a little over an hour for each.
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My villains always have significantly MORE merits than my heroes do. Why is that?|
Originally Posted by Kelenar
Heroside has less story arcs at low levels outside of the Hollows, but later on, the ones it has give out some pretty ludicrous merit rewards compared to what villains get. The standard rant is usually actually that villains get shafted merit-wise. Not saying that I particularly agree here, but it's the more common complaint.
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As a villain, esp. a lowbie villain, I am pretty much soloing. Most of that soloing is running contact missions. I will happily run lowbie villain contacts due to their almost complete LACK of the following type of storyline:
*Hi. Go cross Atlas with no travel power and say hi to some idiot in the Hollows.
*Done with that? Cool. Run all the way back. Now go hunt some bimbo's lost bracelet two zones over. Still with no travel power.
*Mission accomplished? Great. Re-cross those zones and go talk to your contact again, because you can't phone it in.
*Are ya done? Excellent. Go see what's shakin' in Perez. Then run all the way back here....
....GAAAAH! Whereas redside, I have a concrete storyline which, while I have run it many times in the past, is at least less zone-y and less frivolous. As a result my heroes do not bother with contact storylines until Faultline, they go get the O-portal in Faultline and then keep studiously ignoring contact mishes until its time for Croatoa. This results in way fewer merits for blueside folks, at least until they begin seriously running task forces.
Meanwhile the villains studiously run every contact they can get their hands on, all the way through or until seriously outleveled.
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Yeah, the issue for me was more the story arcs rather than the merits. No reason to open up that can of worms. I could be accused of trolling then lol.
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Originally Posted by Dr_HR
I think villains have a more indepth villain story arc going on then heroes..However due to the lack of size on villains due to heroes, It might be lacking at early lvls but you gain far more then villains (again) do later on.
Glad u mentioned story arc and not said merits in general cos tht would of set a fire going lol |
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YOU TROLL!!!! |
Originally Posted by BlackArachnia
Yeah, the issue for me was more the story arcs rather than the merits. No reason to open up that can of worms. I could be accused of trolling then lol.
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HOLY CRAP!!! Your saying you can get merits from things other than the ITF? |
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
COH
Positron TF one, 10-15 level, 11 merits Positron TF two, 11-16 level, 15 merits Synaspe TF, 15-20 level, 25 merits Sister Psyche TF, 20-25, 50 merits Moonfire TF, 23-28 level, 32 merits E. Hess TF, 25-30 level, 19 merits Citadel TF, 25-30 level, 40 merits Manticore TF, 30-35 level, 32 merits Katy Hannon TF, 30-34 level, 9 merits Numina TF, 35-40 level, 36 merits Cave of transcendance Trial, 12-15 level, 8 merits Eden Trial, 39-41 level, 7 merits Abandoned Sewer Trial, 38-40 level, 29 merits --------------------------------------------------------- 13 TFs/Trials for a total of 313 (only running each one time!) Tarikoss SF, 15-20 level, 13 merits Silver Mantius SF, 20-25 level, 42 merits Oper. Renault SF, 25-30 level, 24 merits Ice minstral SF, 35-40 level, 26 merits ---------------------------------------------------------- 4 SFs for a total of 105 merits (only running each one time) |
/e Headasplodes
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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*thptttt*
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Originally Posted by Slashman
YOU TROLL!!!!
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How rude...
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Originally Posted by BlackArachnia
*thptttt*
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Yeah, this is the same experience I have. In theory, my heroes could make a lot more merits over time than my villains. In theory, I could also make more money if I quit my current job and charged people $1000 a pop to slam my head in a door.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
My villains always have significantly MORE merits than my heroes do. Why is that?
As a villain, esp. a lowbie villain, I am pretty much soloing. Most of that soloing is running contact missions. I will happily run lowbie villain contacts due to their almost complete LACK of the following type of storyline: *Hi. Go cross Atlas with no travel power and say hi to some idiot in the Hollows. *Done with that? Cool. Run all the way back. Now go hunt some bimbo's lost bracelet two zones over. Still with no travel power. *Mission accomplished? Great. Re-cross those zones and go talk to your contact again, because you can't phone it in. *Are ya done? Excellent. Go see what's shakin' in Perez. Then run all the way back here.... ....GAAAAH! Whereas redside, I have a concrete storyline which, while I have run it many times in the past, is at least less zone-y and less frivolous. As a result my heroes do not bother with contact storylines until Faultline, they go get the O-portal in Faultline and then keep studiously ignoring contact mishes until its time for Croatoa. This results in way fewer merits for blueside folks, at least until they begin seriously running task forces. Meanwhile the villains studiously run every contact they can get their hands on, all the way through or until seriously outleveled. |
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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Y'know what's really scary? There are others out there like me that dislike redside for exactly the same reason you like it. It's a rail, there's no variety, you go into a zone and stay there for five or ten levels, never to go back again. Bleh. Cohesive story be damned, this is MY story!!! |
Bad_Influence will get CHILLS, I tell you: My villains always have significantly MORE merits than my heroes do. Why is that? As a villain, esp. a lowbie villain, I am pretty much soloing. Most of that soloing is running contact missions. I will happily run lowbie villain contacts due to their almost complete LACK of the following type of storyline: *Hi. Go cross Atlas with no travel power and say hi to some idiot in the Hollows. *Done with that? Cool. Run all the way back. Now go hunt some bimbo's lost bracelet two zones over. Still with no travel power. *Mission accomplished? Great. Re-cross those zones and go talk to your contact again, because you can't phone it in. *Are ya done? Excellent. Go see what's shakin' in Perez. Then run all the way back here.... ....GAAAAH! Whereas redside, I have a concrete storyline which, while I have run it many times in the past, is at least less zone-y and less frivolous. As a result my heroes do not bother with contact storylines until Faultline, they go get the O-portal in Faultline and then keep studiously ignoring contact mishes until its time for Croatoa. This results in way fewer merits for blueside folks, at least until they begin seriously running task forces. Meanwhile the villains studiously run every contact they can get their hands on, all the way through or until seriously outleveled. |
Dec out.
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The devs learned a lot about making better arcs with CoV. Before that they made these huge, aimless sprawling arcs that were mostly about wasting your time. With CoV, and with subsequent arcs written for CoH -- Faultline, Croatoa, RWZ -- they greatly improved the way arcs are structured, allowing for much better merit rewards.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
My villains always have significantly MORE merits than my heroes do. Why is that?
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The oldest content is the low-level hero stuff, so it's the least suited to merit rewards.
Now, as to why you wind up with more merit rewards villain side?
At all levels villain contacts have a number of small, self-contained arcs (often two or three per contact). The hero arcs are generally longer when they start appearing at higher levels. Villains also tend to solo more, I'd guess. That means you're able to complete more content that gives rewards. Heroes tend to run other players' missions, which means you get no merit rewards. Even if they do run their own arcs, they usually take so long that you only do one every five levels if you team with other players, so you see very few merits.
Second, hero arcs from contacts are randomly ordered. Villains teaming can start the same contact's mission and complete them lock-step and everyone gets merits. Not so for the vast majority of hero content. Two level 40 players starting Tina McIntyre's arc will not be able to complete it together. Only the newer content (Faultline, Croatoa, RWZ) works that way.
This is my major beef with the whole reward merit program. You have to explicitly pick and choose how you play the game to get reward merits. If you like to play on pickup teams but not lead the team, you'll never get any merit rewards. If you do radio/paper missions and mayhem/safeguard missions, you'll never get any merit rewards.
The only way to get merit rewards are to run TFs/SFs, run your own contact missions, run Ouroboros missions, or take down giant monsters. If you're an "average" player who pops on for an hour or two a night and like to team (don't have the time or inclination to run TFs or lengthy Ouroboros arcs, don't like to lead a pickup team), you will never get any merits.
One improvement would be to revamp the hero side arcs: they need to be split into smaller subarcs and they need to be sequential. Essentially, you should get the same stuff from the contact that you get from Ouroboros.
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Yeah, that about sums it up. Not that you were pointing at me in particular, I tend to solo most of time anyways. My fiance and I play together but we hate blowing through content. I was not happy with the idea of the merit system when it went live, and you hit one many of the points why. Another reason is now it takes multiple arcs to earn a single enhancement, where as 1 story arc usually gave you a DO or SO based on your level. it feels like a slap in the face, not getting anything for running story arcs other that merits.
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Originally Posted by Rodion
The devs learned a lot about making better arcs with CoV. Before that they made these huge, aimless sprawling arcs that were mostly about wasting your time. With CoV, and with subsequent arcs written for CoH -- Faultline, Croatoa, RWZ -- they greatly improved the way arcs are structured, allowing for much better merit rewards.
The oldest content is the low-level hero stuff, so it's the least suited to merit rewards. Now, as to why you wind up with more merit rewards villain side? At all levels villain contacts have a number of small, self-contained arcs (often two or three per contact). The hero arcs are generally longer when they start appearing at higher levels. Villains also tend to solo more, I'd guess. That means you're able to complete more content that gives rewards. Heroes tend to run other players' missions, which means you get no merit rewards. Even if they do run their own arcs, they usually take so long that you only do one every five levels if you team with other players, so you see very few merits. Second, hero arcs from contacts are randomly ordered. Villains teaming can start the same contact's mission and complete them lock-step and everyone gets merits. Not so for the vast majority of hero content. Two level 40 players starting Tina McIntyre's arc will not be able to complete it together. Only the newer content (Faultline, Croatoa, RWZ) works that way. This is my major beef with the whole reward merit program. You have to explicitly pick and choose how you play the game to get reward merits. If you like to play on pickup teams but not lead the team, you'll never get any merit rewards. If you do radio/paper missions and mayhem/safeguard missions, you'll never get any merit rewards. The only way to get merit rewards are to run TFs/SFs, run your own contact missions, run Ouroboros missions, or take down giant monsters. If you're an "average" player who pops on for an hour or two a night and like to team (don't have the time or inclination to run TFs or lengthy Ouroboros arcs, don't like to lead a pickup team), you will never get any merits. One improvement would be to revamp the hero side arcs: they need to be split into smaller subarcs and they need to be sequential. Essentially, you should get the same stuff from the contact that you get from Ouroboros. |
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Just to strengthen your argument a bit more, Synapse is 58 merits, +2 for Babbage.
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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
Synaspe TF, 15-20 level, 25 merits
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My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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I never said I liked redside due to a perceived lack of variety. I am a very goal-oriented person. It makes more sense for me thematically to go find out if those rumors about the Council Vampyre are true, than to be sent hopping, skipping and jumping across two zones to go talk to some fool in the Hollows, and then go hunt down some silly idiot's lost bracelet, and then to run hither, thither and yon to find out exactly how many Skulls are haunting Hell's Highway or whatever other banality lowbie hero contacts throw at me.|
Originally Posted by Decorum
Y'know what's really scary? There are others out there like me that dislike redside for exactly the same reason you like it. It's a rail, there's no variety, you go into a zone and stay there for five or ten levels, never to go back again. Bleh. Cohesive story be damned, this is MY story!!!
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My level 33 tank recently endured a string of, I think it was four Council hunt missions in a row, for a contact. Four. Some may view this as "variety," people like me see it as poor storytelling. Its not really an inducement for me to run a lot of heroside contact stuff.
But especially as a level four, I don't find it compelling to be sent to an opposite corner of the map for each mission, or to be sent to the opposite corners of different zones - that's just a nuisance, not good storytelling. I won't even get into not being given a phone number until mission #12 of a contact storyline. Stupid?! I guess so, at least over here. Mileage will vary.
This is not a rant.
I could be wrong.
That said, it feels like hero side gets fewer merits than villain side, at least at earlier levels. By the time I have hit 13 I have ran through at least two story arcs and have 10 - 15 merits on the villain side.
Hero side I do not even find a story arc until level 10 it seems. I am sure Wincott as a story arc but really that seems to be the only one at that level, and to be honest, I avoid the Hollows like a plague. I have done the arc enough times to know I find it boring, and other than Frostfire's half pipes, that mission is not worth the trouble it is to fight him.
So, am I missing some story arcs hero side? Do we actually get fewer merits over there?