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I agree AND disagree with you. Most of the time YES a team should stick together and help each other to excel and survive. That's what being a part lof a team is all about. But as mentioned sometimes the team is so overpowering it just makes sense to split and take things out faster. I ran a Moonfire TF a while back like this. We had two good tankers, plenty of Controller buffs/debuffs and lots of damage. We broke into two teams and quickly moved through those defeat alls at the beginning with only 1 death.. OKAY A BLASTER should always WAIT for the tank before charging headfirst into a mob designed for 8 players LOL He learned quickly and it never happened again.|
Originally Posted by Peacemoon
Ok small rant. My latest pet peeve on teams has been the "one man armies", people who seem to have such an elevated self-worth they seem to ignore the fact they are on a team or even worse act as if the team is only holding them back.
They rush ahead on their own and start soloing, even when most of the team hasn't even arrived. This is only fine if you are in a horribly slow team with a few airhead members. Otherwise its just plain rude I think. Sure its *great* for them, but then the team isn't working as a single coherent unit. Also they tend to seperate from the team, and at the same time lead a few poor individuals away who no doubt can't survive on their own like they can. Then the rest of the team has to mop up the mess as they push on. Its really annoying, I like my teams to work as a team, not as a bunch of over-enhanced over-ego'd group of individuals because that only leads to deaths and sours the mood. /Shield scrappers are the worst at this with their insta-nuke power, or Illusion/ Controllers who run to the end of the mission and start trying to solo. Anyway I will end my rant here before I go on too much. I don't mind people who are IO'd out, I have a few myself. But when you enter a team, play as a team. It doesn't matter how good you think you are, if you are trying to run off and solo then you are making it harder for the rest of us. |
I also don't know who you team team with or what ATs and powersets you personally play but singling out /SD scrappers and ILL/ Controllers as being HORRIBLE for charging off on their own is a bit out of line. I personally play both of those and my ILL/EMP, ILL/THERM and ILL/RAD controllers never leave the team unless the leader asks me to move ahead in Superior INV and teleport to the mission objective.. Yeah I actually TAKE recall friend on any ILL character so I can HELP the team not to show off. Scrappers are scrappers and they have been rushing ahead and trying to see how much they can kill for as long as the game has been in existance.. I personally stay with my team and see my job as .. Bosses first, Lieutenants next and then minions since I have arguably the most damage on the team. I realize not every scrapper plays with that mentality but lumping us all into one category is unfair
And let's not limit things to scarppers or ILL... I was on a team with a Fire/Kin as leader. he insisted we HAD to find a tank and took almost 5 -10 minute searching for one before we started running missions. Once inside I think everyone on the team wondered why we had waited so long since our fearless leader constantly rushed past the tanker so he could show off just how fast and effective his Fire Imps could kill things. The Tank quit before we finished a single mission and when we got back outside and the leader started seraching for another TANK.. the entire team quit. I've done a Master of LRSF where the Brutes had us all hiding in a corner while they ran around killing thing cause "Heaven forbid we let the rest of you play you might die and ruin everything." I was on my 50 level CRAB Soldier with IOs in every slot, Hit points comparable to a scrapper, Damage comparable to a Blaster and Defense some Tanks/Brutes would envy. Why in heavens name was I hiding?
Especially since MY defenses add 10% to THEIR defense which one assume would make them less likely to die and ruin the master's run. DUH There are good and bad players on every AT and TRYING to use every powerset available. You may have run into more bad ILLs and /SDs than anything else but it doesn't make those "THE WORST" by any means.
If your the leader and anyone on the team is doing things that make the team suffer.. Kick them and let someone else have a chance for better XP/INF. If it's not your team so what i do.. QUIT and find another one or BUILD one of your own.
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Honestly, I don't have a problem with team splits if the team has already proven that it's capable of handling them. If you can hack it, HACK IT HARD!
Friday afternoon, I was able to team my Ill/Ice troller to a team with three bubblers. Dear sweet JESUS we ran right over everything we hit. We'd buff, take on a couple groups, regroup and rebuff, then carry on. Sitting at 85-100% defense is SO nice sometimes.
About the only thing I don't like are people who run off well before everyone gets in-mish and starts trying to complete the mission.
Granted, there are occasionally VERY slow teammates who seem to take 20 minutes to get on-map. But still. If I rush to a mission, zone in, and ding completion because one guy took it on himself to complete I get ticked!
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I got not problem with players heading over to a different enemy group then the rest of the team are on, provided:
1. They can handle the spawn.
2. If 1 is not kept, takes the fall there instead of running back to the group and get us killed.
(3). I'm on my Emp or any support. If the runner-of asks for buffs or healing and he is not with the team... I'll stick with the team.
It annoys me when i'm tossing out them buffs and "What I cannot bu... aha split" = buff on next person.
One little event that really nagged me (on my main blaster) happened during a double xp weekend. Since I'm a badger I tend to use those to get my main badger, in case this blaster, progress towards the Leader badge (influence badge).
We where a full group and we did get a fire/kin a few levels lower then us into the group. I was exemped (to get more progress yeay).
The team is a steamroller and well I can accept that the fire/kin goes off on his own. For some weird reason, he seems to be used to that. No biggie. I stay and wack with the rest of the group (When exemped you could, it was only if you where sidekicked that you had to stay with your mentor to be effective).
But both me and the leader did get a little tired of the fire/kin going constantly alone. Yes we did take down mobs quickly, but both me, the leader and a few of the others knew that if that fire/kin had been with the team... things would have gone even quicker.
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Everyone has their playstyle and I'm pretty tolerant to differences.
I tend to think most Scrappers are designed by nature to aggro whatever is around them (via their taunt aura) so they function best in a team make up attacking the dangerous targets (boss, mezzers, etc.) because they have inherent survivability and mez protection that the would be target squishies lack if they were targeted instead.
I prefer not to be on the team with the super Scrapper who charges ahead, solos spawns, and leaves the squishies off to play their own little game (without that said Scrappers assistance doing what is mentioned above). Still, I know who to pop inspirations and make just about anything work, and I usually pack Vengeance. But I prefer a Scrapper who rolls with the rest of the team.
Again, if someone wants to play it differently, I'll roll with it. As long as the team can still roll along fine, *shrug*, okay. Of course, if things prove to be unfun, of course, can try suggesting people stay together, or simply politely quit after the mission and move on.
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Current Team Project: Pending
I usually run with teams that do speed runs on stuff, but I usually team with people I know, so they usually know what is up. If you are worried that this is the stuff that will go on in your teams you should global the people that play the way you do. That is the best perk to being in a good SG, with a great coal.
If there's one thing I HATE about teams more than anything else, it's sitting on my hands because other people are taking their sweet time polishing their cat or airing their motherboard or mopping the ceiling or something. Now, I don't have problem with people taking 15 minutes to sell and train - you gotta' do what you gotta' do. But I have a problem with WAITING for them. So, someone goes off to train. Fine. He can catch up when he's done, as long as it's not his mission.
The other thing I HATE is sitting on my hands because no-one has the balls to open the next fight. So we sit and we look at it and we wait and we buff each other because our previous buffs timed out while we were waiting and we wait some more. Is the Tanker asleep? Eh, screw it. So what if I'm a Blaster? I can open the fight with that x6 spawn by myself. I'm sure the others will join me. And they usually do.
Here's the thing - the way I build my characters, I'm neither fast nor strong on my own. But when I get on a team, ally buffs make me stronger and faster. They make EVERYONE stronger and faster. So there's no excuse to stand around picking our noses when we could be killing stuff. SOMEONE needs to keep up the pace and open the next fight, and if the team is too skittish to show initiative, I will.
Much as it pains me to admit it, it's like Zombra always said - I'm the one who's always looking to up the ante when things look like they're going too well. If we're massacring spawns with no danger or trouble, then I'm sure we can handle two at a time. And it goes on like this.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Controlling team leaders are the reason I seldom PUG.
I will jump on TFs and gladly follow a leader that knows what they are doing and follow them on subsequent runs. For one that does not lead well, I just don't run TFs with them again.
As for day-to-day PUGs i really avoid them, unless I am just in the mood to play a support character and none of my friends are online, I'll join to get some practice for the times when things go bad.
Other than that, I solo and only play with my RL friends for the most part.
Why? Because of leaders that want to tell me how to play. I don't mind inexperienced plays really. I'll slow down for them to learn but only if they speak up about being new.
If I know I can go off and steamroll on my own, I will. If the players on the team don't know enough not to follow me vs. sticking with the team, that is their problem, not mine.
As others have stated, I too find it rude to solo the big boss or go too far ahead before everyone is in the mission, so that all members get to participate in the big fights and get xp and other rewards.
I don't want to step on the fun of others, but I won't let the step on mine.
Playing as a team has a lot more to do with judging the abilities of the team and exploiting them than it does with everyone staying in a huddled mass.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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Teams are diverse critters in this game.|
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
I don't want to step on the fun of others, but I won't let the step on mine.
Playing as a team has a lot more to do with judging the abilities of the team and exploiting them than it does with everyone staying in a huddled mass. |
Even the same set of ATs with the same power sets can have different power choices and different play strategies--that work well.
As rarely as I team I never do that. I have the utmost respect for my team and the idea that we're a team. If I wanted to run in and plow through spawns like I was playing by myself, I can do that by myself.
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Unless you also want one of the things that are team-only, such as Hamidon enhancements, or the far faster Reward Merit collection rate of TFs, or indeed the much faster Vanguard Merit collection rate from Mothership Raids.
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Originally Posted by Angryellow
As rarely as I team I never do that. I have the utmost respect for my team and the idea that we're a team. If I wanted to run in and plow through spawns like I was playing by myself, I can do that by myself.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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As I've always said, I'd rather have a team with 8 One-Man-Armies working together than a team with 8 parts of a whole. Things just go better if everyone is self-sufficient, and one or two people dropping won't lead to a full team wipe.
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I always use the hop shot to the corner when I'm on a squishy and no one else on the team is willing to take the initiative to open aggro. Get a running start, hop, and then fire while floating towards the corner. The mobs won't have a chance to return fire before you're out of sight, forcing them to run towards you, which usually is plenty of time for the rest of the team to engage.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The other thing I HATE is sitting on my hands because no-one has the balls to open the next fight. So we sit and we look at it and we wait and we buff each other because our previous buffs timed out while we were waiting and we wait some more. Is the Tanker asleep? Eh, screw it. So what if I'm a Blaster? I can open the fight with that x6 spawn by myself. I'm sure the others will join me. And they usually do.
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Current Team Project: Pending
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A man (woman?) after my own heart, then |
Originally Posted by SuperFerret
As I've always said, I'd rather have a team with 8 One-Man-Armies working together than a team with 8 parts of a whole. Things just go better if everyone is self-sufficient, and one or two people dropping won't lead to a full team wipe.
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Personally, I've always held the above as my ultimate ideal. Far and above teamwork and strategy, I prefer it when ever member of a team can look after himself to at least some degree if left alone and doesn't need to be babysat. If the team splits up, many people die or someone gets separated, I want to know they can hold out and possibly even win. I want to know I can rely on my team-mates to not die if I screw up, and I want them to be able to rely on me to take care of myself when they can't be everywhere.
By far the MOST fun I've ever, ever had (in terms of teaming) in this game was on a Bastion TF with six Scrappers and a bubble Defender. I played my namesake Scrapper then and got a spot for a friend of mine, who only had a Scrapper of the right level then, as we joined a team of all Scrappers. We appended the Bubbler right before the start. Not only was the action the most fun I've ever seen with the six of us Scrappers basically carving a path of our own, but it was actually some of the safest I've had. I could count on all of my team-mates to look after their own work so I could focus on my own, and I knew that even if I got in over my head, all I had to do was hold out until the others were finished with theirs and they'd pull me out of the fire.
No Tanks, no "healers," no crowd control and, most importantly, no "leadership." Not much need for it on a team that's basically all Scrappers. What would a leader say? "Go kill stuff?" We knew to do that on our own. I would much rather have that over a needy, codependent team that falls apart if you remove even a single player. I know some people like the idea of force multipliers or characters who cripple themselves in order to benefit the team more in return, but I've never been a fan of this kind of gameplay. I'd much sooner see 8 soloists playing together than be on a team where everyone has a "role."
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'm definitely on the other end of the spectrum. I prefer a whole that is great than the parts, but that's probably why I have never dabbled in scrappers or brutes. To me, things like the all fire/rad STF are quite interesting and exciting. Of course, there's definitely room for both playstyle; it just becomes a problem when they unwittingly collide. |
Originally Posted by SuperFerret
As I've always said, I'd rather have a team with 8 One-Man-Armies working together than a team with 8 parts of a whole. Things just go better if everyone is self-sufficient, and one or two people dropping won't lead to a full team wipe.
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A little communication generally resolves most problems when it happens, but you occasionally find...
The guy that tries to solo an x8 mob and fails spectacularly. I was on a Citadel the other day that peaked 3 hours due to two players like this. Surprisingly, they never altered their tactics throughout the entire run. Run to the last room, aggro the boss mob, face plant. Heck, at one point the rest of the team cleared the map and made it to the one fellow who was still lying on the ground rather than visiting the hospital.
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Very much so. If there's a tank on the team, I'll give him 5-8 seconds to get his butt in gear, once everyone's zoned and buffed. If he doesn't, I'm popping a couple of purples and charging in. Get the party started already! And if there's no tank on the team, I won't wait that long.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The other thing I HATE is sitting on my hands because no-one has the balls to open the next fight. So we sit and we look at it and we wait and we buff each other because our previous buffs timed out while we were waiting and we wait some more. Is the Tanker asleep? Eh, screw it. So what if I'm a Blaster? I can open the fight with that x6 spawn by myself. I'm sure the others will join me. And they usually do.
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I know how to keep myself alive. If I'm not getting anyone else killed, then it's all good. ^_^
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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Pretty much. There's a different between being patient for people to go about legitimate business like selling and training and "patience" for waiting for people's brains to engage. Are we all here? Are we all ready? Then what are we waiting for?|
Originally Posted by Organica
Very much so. If there's a tank on the team, I'll give him 5-8 seconds to get his butt in gear, once everyone's zoned and buffed. If he doesn't, I'm popping a couple of purples and charging in. Get the party started already! And if there's no tank on the team, I won't wait that long.
I know how to keep myself alive. If I'm not getting anyone else killed, then it's all good. ^_^ |
On another note, the one thing that kills me is waiting for everyone to zone, especially if the team can proceed without the whole team in the instance. OK, so Joe Slow is taking 25 minutes to train up. I can respect that, I've done the same. But do we REALLY need to sit around and tell knock-knock jokes until he's ready? I mean, it's not his mission and we already have seven people in the instance. Let's go already. Joe can catch up when he's ready, or possibly join us for the next mission.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Different strokes, Sam. I'd probably want to quit a team you were rushing ahead or complaining about slowness (not that you've said you do that in-game, noted).
The goal of the team is that everyone have fun. Since there's so many different ways to have fun in this game, it's best if you get on teams with like mindsets.
Dec out.
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I don't complain about slowness. Ever. I generally don't complain about anything on teams. I'll ask if we can't start without the people who will take 10 minutes to arrive if it looks like we'll manage, and I'll make sure we're not waiting around if the team feels like it isn't in any danger. If people have a problem with it or the team still isn't moving much, I will simply finish the mission and bow out. I don't hold it against people who don't want to play like I want to play, but I don't feel obligated to stay on their teams.|
Originally Posted by Decorum
Different strokes, Sam. I'd probably want to quit a team you were rushing ahead or complaining about slowness (not that you've said you do that in-game, noted).
The goal of the team is that everyone have fun. Since there's so many different ways to have fun in this game, it's best if you get on teams with like mindsets. |
But again - it's not a question of rushing. I only consider it rushing if it's done at the expense of safety or performance, or if people are trying to do something else but are interrupted, such as exploring corners or chatting. But I simply will not stand for empty waiting when people are just standing in place and fidgeting for no reason other than because no-one has any initiative. That's not rushing in these cases.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I hear you, but what I meant really was I don't go headlong into the fray without knowing what my teammates want to do and what they're doing. Sure I can hang against the spawns just fine, but I don't think it's fair to my team if I so arrogantly rush in and start killing s*** as if this were my mission and mine only.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Unless you also want one of the things that are team-only, such as Hamidon enhancements, or the far faster Reward Merit collection rate of TFs, or indeed the much faster Vanguard Merit collection rate from Mothership Raids.
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Well, you'll note I noted you never said you did. |
Samuel_Tow missed me saying something: I don't complain about slowness. Ever. I generally don't complain about anything on teams. I'll ask if we can't start without the people who will take 10 minutes to arrive if it looks like we'll manage, and I'll make sure we're not waiting around if the team feels like it isn't in any danger. |
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| If people have a problem with it or the team still isn't moving much, I will simply finish the mission and bow out. I don't hold it against people who don't want to play like I want to play, but I don't feel obligated to stay on their teams. |
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| But again - it's not a question of rushing. I only consider it rushing if it's done at the expense of safety or performance, or if people are trying to do something else but are interrupted, such as exploring corners or chatting. But I simply will not stand for empty waiting when people are just standing in place and fidgeting for no reason other than because no-one has any initiative. That's not rushing in these cases. |
Dec out.
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Thing is, it's very rarely a question of "can't" or "don't want to," but rather a question of "can't be arsed to show initiative." Whenever I've "rushed" and not died a lot, people have always tended to remark on how surprisingly well we're doing because we're tearing through missions at a frightening pace without actually team-wiping.|
Originally Posted by Decorum
Rushing is a relative term. It means going faster than you or the other people want. If they want to wait, and you're hustling them up, then you are rushing. If you're moving at the same pace and everyone's cool with it, then you're not. Same with "falling behind".
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When I see people waiting around and doing nothing, almost every time they're just waiting for someone to make the move, and City of Heroes players are always so damn patient. OK, if you're a Blaster or a Defender, I can kind of see you being apprehensive of just running in and eating a 6-man-team alpha. I understand that. But when the Tanker is sitting on his ***, sucking his thumb until you ask if we're doing anything three times in a row to deafening silence, then there's no excuse.
Know what bugs the hell out of me?
Ready!
Ready!
Ready!
rdy
Ready!
Ready!
redy
Ready!
REady.
Well any time now, sweethearts!
I KNOW you guys are ready! We're all ready! I'm ready. You're, ready. We're all ready. So... Shall we go? Today, preferably. Still waiting, huh? Well, OK, as long as you're ready, then I guess I'll volunteer my suicidal Blaster *** to that huge pack of monsters if it'll get you to uproot yourselves and actually move.
This is what kills me. Everyone's ready, everyone is prepared, we're all buffed up... And we're waiting. I guess we're waiting for someone with a bit of initiative to wake up and keep the pace up.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I have weird internal rules when I lead a team about who it is that we should wait for, and who we shouldn't.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
On another note, the one thing that kills me is waiting for everyone to zone, especially if the team can proceed without the whole team in the instance. OK, so Joe Slow is taking 25 minutes to train up. I can respect that, I've done the same. But do we REALLY need to sit around and tell knock-knock jokes until he's ready? I mean, it's not his mission and we already have seven people in the instance. Let's go already. Joe can catch up when he's ready, or possibly join us for the next mission.
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In fact, they actually vary quite a bit. I don't always expect a team to wait for me, even if it is my mish... even if I am the leader, unless I am practically in the door to the mish and people start killing s***. That bugs me, I mean, 3 seconds woulda killed ya? If I see "On Mission Map" for location, I will wait for them to load, pretty much every time. If I see they are in a zone with a WW and are a zone away, I will generally not wait.
Then there is the situation of TFs. I almost ALWAYS feel we should wait for members in that situation. I just think that if you are doing a story that is based on a team and requires a team, then the whole team should be present (barring ppl saying not to wait or shopping, etc.).
Also, if someone develops a pattern of being slow to a mish, I will stop waiting for them. Basically, what I want is kinda the Golden Rule here. If I would expect the team to wait for ME in a situation, then I will probably wait for them.
And then there are "dead weight" players. Players that seem to do nothing except exist. They aren't actively stupid, they don't cause team wipes... they just stay a room behind at all times, or use a single power over and over (like spamming heal auras), or any number of other useless but still "existent" actions. I, as a rule, will not wait for these players ever. I mean, the only reason that they haven't been kicked is that they are padding spawn size. Though as soon as they are actively stupid, or start expecting me to wait for their uselessness... they are gone.
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This, for the most part. |
Originally Posted by Decorum
I think it's a matter of determining the playstyle of the team. There's a rather large faction in the game that thinks anything not done at the fastest speed possible is a waste of their time. There's a smaller, but still large faction that doesn't care how fast you go and even some that prefer slower to faster. It's only a personal observation, but the second group seems to be a lot better at communicating and adapting with each other while the first group seems to just assume that their playstyle is everyone's (always exceptions, of course). When you mix the two types together, it takes a lot of communication to get everyone on the same page, and often it just turns out they shouldn't be playing with each other.
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I REALLY hate running a TF I have never done (mostly redside stuff at this point), and having the rest of the team decide that it's going to be a speed run. I don't necessarily want to run it slow, but I don't want to rush through it my first time running it either.
I do have one memorable story though. I was playing my main (a Claws/Regen scrapper) on a team in the 40s. The team consisted of myself, a defender (EMP/ignoredsecondary), a tank of some kind (WP or Invuln I think) and 4 frigging fire blasters. After the first few mobs I realized that the entire spawn was dying before I even got to hit anything (4 Fireballs hitting simultaneously will do that)
So, I break off on my own so I can actually stab a couple enemies....only to have the Emp defender TP me back and say "STAY WITH THE TEAM!" This happened a few more times, and I tried explaining that the fire blasters were killing everything before I even got to the spawn, and that having me stay with the team was rendering me useless. The defender said they didn't care, and that I was to stay with the team or I wasn't going to be on the team at all.
*Claws and Effect has quit the team*
In the middle of a mission, in the middle of a fight. I nevr bail from a team like that, but that defender just annoyed me too much to stick out the rest of the mission.
So, before complaining that a scrapper is running off on their own, consider the situation first. If the team is killing stuff so fast that the scrapper never gets to attack anything, they are probably getting frustrated and bored, and letting them go find stuff to fight is A) letting the scrapper feel like they're contributing, and B) actually the best use of that scrapper's abilities.
Forcing that scrapper to remain with the team when they never get to hit anything is both unfair for the scrapper, and slowing the team down because that person isn't getting the opportunity to contribute their share of damage.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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LOL|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Know what bugs the hell out of me?
Ready! Ready! Ready! rdy Ready! Ready! redy Ready! REady. Well any time now, sweethearts! I KNOW you guys are ready! We're all ready! I'm ready. You're, ready. We're all ready. So... Shall we go? Today, preferably. Still waiting, huh? Well, OK, as long as you're ready, then I guess I'll volunteer my suicidal Blaster *** to that huge pack of monsters if it'll get you to uproot yourselves and actually move. |
That's why I now always ask:
Is anyone NOT ready?Then when I don't hear anything I take off into the spawn
For the record, I never leave a team that is struggling. That's when I shift into domesticated mode. But a team that's steamrolling everything anyway? I'll be over there, guys. Yell if you run into trouble.
Be well, people of CoH.