Geez, playing EMP Defender is tiring.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-07-02 22:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Agreed, not a fat geek, but weren't you both wearing green in that picture? Are you fur and leather guy, or his arch nemesis, brave Sir PETA? Where's the squeeze bottle of fake blood? Murderer!|
Originally Posted by Mandu
Incidentally I'm the one in green.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Because I can't fort the entire team I hold onto one fort for emergencies.
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As an aside, I must sadly confirm that at least one poster is countering arguments in this how-did-this-get-controversial? thread with wild unproven claims attached to negreps instead of, uh, posting counter arguments.
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Me: level 50 is a "pure empath" and they haven't even targeted an enemy since Outbreak Negrepper: most pure empaths have the other build for when they come across better players |
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That's why when I'm playing a squishy I'll say 'ZZZ' in team chat if I get mezzed. As for the healing issue, yeah it can be like playing an endless game of whack-a-mole. Think that's bad, try being a ninja/poison mastermind on a team of idiots who expect you to be primary healer. Even with the med pool it's still a seriously draining healthbar wack-a-mole.
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Originally Posted by SPiNE
First time rolling an Empathy Defender in the past 3-4 years and boy is it tiring. Honestly, it feels more straining than any other powersets
 ...especially during low levels.Have to either CM everyone or pay attention to anyone who got mezzed. This is the most workout I've gotten in a long time. It's fun when I have the energy for it though :] |
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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O.o so your team has 140% plus defense?! Cause that's what my Elude def values were before ditching it. 3 slotted every defensive power with SO enhancements, including 3 slotting defense into ELude and you have defense overkill.
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Originally Posted by Smurphy
Our Empathy Defenders have more Defense than a Super Reflexes Scrapper in Elude.
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"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Sounds about right. A quick back-of-the-envelope calculation shows 8 sets of Maneuvers at 5.4% each plus 5 sets of Fortitude at 23.4% each, giving 160.7% defense. It's worth noting that to be softcapped against an even-con Rularuu eyeball, you need at least 145% defense.
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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
O.o so your team has 140% plus defense?!
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And then the Regen from AB and the auras on top of that meaning you're easily at the Regen cap?|
Originally Posted by Katie V
Sounds about right. A quick back-of-the-envelope calculation shows 8 sets of Maneuvers at 5.4% each plus 5 sets of Fortitude at 23.4% each, giving 160.7% defense. It's worth noting that to be softcapped against an even-con Rularuu eyeball, you need at least 145% defense.
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Dear sweet unholy Cthulhu! That's unnatural!
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Note that even with Elude I was getting hit quite a lot when fighting even-con Rularuu. Far and away more often then I do vs a +2 boss when my def is 30%. I think their to-hit is far higher then you believe. Hence why I don't like going to the Shadow Shard on Madam Enigma. I don't like feeling that my entire defense set is useless.
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Originally Posted by Katie V
Sounds about right. A quick back-of-the-envelope calculation shows 8 sets of Maneuvers at 5.4% each plus 5 sets of Fortitude at 23.4% each, giving 160.7% defense. It's worth noting that to be softcapped against an even-con Rularuu eyeball, you need at least 145% defense.
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"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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For a few primaries, maybe... but my Traps/ Defender could care less what your status effects are most of the time. I've got a giant bubble that takes care of those, and the rest of my time is spent laying down the hate on the enemies. Dark/ pretty much doesn't deal with status effects at all in PvE, and the enemies are going to be ToHit floored, so they probably won't hit anyway. Forcefield/ has a big bubble that takes care of status effects, Cold/ doesn't really care about yours status effects, Trick Arrow/ really doesn't care about your status effects...|
Originally Posted by Mandu
Said it before and I'll say it again. I won't play defenders on teams for this exact reason. You aren't playing City of Heroes, you are playing whackamole with the other players status.
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Point is, this statement is kinda inapplicable to most Defenders. Out of the 10 Defender primaries, only 3 (Empathy, Sonic, Kinetics) have broadly applicable ST mezz protection powers. And it's kinda laughably useless in most situations on Sonic/, because you have a giant bubble that negates most mezzes anyway. Only 2 primaries (Empathy, Storm) have ST heals. So at the very most, 4 out of the 10 Defender primaries are even equipped to do whack-a-mole of any form. Most of them have enough up-front mitigation that your team should only take significant damage or mezzes very, very rarely most of the time.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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I used a power analyzer on one once and it had a bonus of 100% to hit.
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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Note that even with Elude I was getting hit quite a lot when fighting even-con Rularuu. Far and away more often then I do vs a +2 boss when my def is 30%. I think their to-hit is far higher then you believe. Hence why I don't like going to the Shadow Shard on Madam Enigma. I don't like feeling that my entire defense set is useless.
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If the mesure of a good emp is keeping up ALL our buffs 24/7 then i'd fail that mesure. LOL.|
Originally Posted by SPiNE
First time rolling an Empathy Defender in the past 3-4 years and boy is it tiring. Honestly, it feels more straining than any other powersets
...especially during low levels.Have to either CM everyone or pay attention to anyone who got mezzed. Have to keep Fortitude going on several different players. Have to keep healing most of the times. Have to gather the team or wait for an opportunity where everyone is grouped up for both RA auras. This is the most workout I've gotten in a long time. It's fun when I have the energy for it though :] |
I'll pass fort out like it's going out of style. I can keep it pretty much perma on about 4 people if i'm on top of my game. I'm happy if i have 3 perma. (I try for 4 but don't beat myself up unless i drop below 3 icons active at once.) The RA's go off whenever they are ready... and clearmind... eh, ah.. i foget i have that thing half the time...
Granted, if i'm on a MSR, IT'S my primary buff i use (on non melees) but outside of that, and using it for a tank on GW in STF's, i use it reactively if i see someone stuned or see ZZZ or some such indicator they need it. It's duration is just way to short to keep it up 24/7.and lets not forget AB, which, when i have it (i exemp alot) i use whenever it's up, normally on a blaster or a tank that seems to be struggling. (either with damage taken or endurance burn. i've seen both)
And frankly, i've found if i keep up on my forts(and give them to people that accually NEED them... namely the squishes first, unless your tank isn't tough enough to handle the argo on his own. most i've teamed with are... some need fort, most don't IMO.) and keep my ra's up, i don't need to heal all that often. (Prolly helps i'm a controller controlling too.)
My measure of sucess for my emp is, first, did we win? second did anyone die? If the answer is no, then, awsome, we, as a team, totally rock. If it's yes, i ask, could i have reailistialy have saved them? If the answer is no, the crasy scrapper was on the other side of the map alone, then, eh, it doens't count.
If the answer was, yes, if you were faster on the draw, then i try harder next time. And frankly, i enjoy an active set. I've seen some defenders, bubblers mainly, who seem to bubble the team and... just wait to do it again. Rarely attacking... or really doing much of anything... THAT would tire me out, from bordem. My FF defender is an Archer too, so, when the bubbles are up, i go wild with the arrows, a rather fast attacking set. I like to stay busy. heh.
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I have 2 builds, one near enough for saving teams with friends who tend to team in pick n mix pugs and one for teams that I really don't have to worry about and is good/best for soloing.
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Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
Proof or dare? (Warning: I recommend you choose proof. My dare will involve you forming a PuG ITF with 7 random level 50 self described "pure empaths", and you are free to ask them to swap to their ... "other build" ... snicker, snicker.)
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Don't Defenders get +30% damage solo, now? (And 20% on a duo, 10% on a trio, 0% on 4+?)
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
yes Scourge does provide a damage bonus (estimated at around 20% when solo)
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
One empath alone can be tiring, as the limited buffs ensure you will 'heal' fairly often. However, when you get a few Empaths together...
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Yes but most people slot with about 95% damage from enhancements so the +30% damage effectively increases overall damage by 15%. This means that solo Defenders and Corruptors have the same basic damage neglecting Scourge (also Corruptors get more benefit from other damage bonuses such as inspirations of Fulcrum Shift).|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Don't Defenders get +30% damage solo, now? (And 20% on a duo, 10% on a trio, 0% on 4+?)
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Here's the actual math:
Defender: 0.65*(1 + 0.95 + 0.3) = 1.4625
Corruptor: 0.75*(1 + 0.95) = 1.4625
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Are you sure of that 140% defense? I've been playing with the numbers on Mids', and the best I can get without IO sets or external buffs is 120%. I'm fairly sure of the base 150% chance to hit, because after getting my &*%# handed to me the first time I encountered the eyeballs, I checked them out with Surveillance, which showed a to-hit of 150%.
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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Note that even with Elude I was getting hit quite a lot when fighting even-con Rularuu. Far and away more often then I do vs a +2 boss when my def is 30%. I think their to-hit is far higher then you believe. Hence why I don't like going to the Shadow Shard on Madam Enigma. I don't like feeling that my entire defense set is useless.
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Rularuu.Sentry.Resistance: +100% tohit (and 50% base tohit for all critters)|
Originally Posted by Katie V
Are you sure of that 140% defense? I've been playing with the numbers on Mids', and the best I can get without IO sets or external buffs is 120%. I'm fairly sure of the base 150% chance to hit, because after getting my &*%# handed to me the first time I encountered the eyeballs, I checked them out with Surveillance, which showed a to-hit of 150%.
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And don't forget, Optic Blast has -def to target (and a fairly hefty one -- 80% the strength of Radiation Infection's -def)
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Well, all I can say to that is that I wish there were more Empaths like you in the game.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
I have 2 builds, one near enough for saving teams with friends who tend to team in pick n mix pugs and one for teams that I really don't have to worry about and is good/best for soloing.
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Fairly sure, but not 100% positive. I may be thinking before the enhancement scaling changes. I believe the 140% def was before they changed the values of some enhancement types in prep for ED and inventions. I know back in issue six I once calculated what my projected defense would be with elude assuming a /poison mastermind tagged me with the debuffs. And as I recall it ended up being around -5% or so. My original calulations were done around issue 4 or 5. The max def without inventions may be lower now.
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Originally Posted by Katie V
Are you sure of that 140% defense? I've been playing with the numbers on Mids', and the best I can get without IO sets or external buffs is 120%. I'm fairly sure of the base 150% chance to hit, because after getting my &*%# handed to me the first time I encountered the eyeballs, I checked them out with Surveillance, which showed a to-hit of 150%.
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"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Most of the good empaths do not frequent the boards as they are tired of the bashing tossed at the empathy set by the rabid anti healer crowd.
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Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
Well, all I can say to that is that I wish there were more Empaths like you in the game.
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The worst is when people get into the mindset of, "theres an emp on the team I won't die" only to run off on their own and get killed and then they wonk that you didn't heal them.
/gignore @username is the best feature of this game. It's also probably the least used feature.
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Originally Posted by Nights_Dawn
Hazy is right
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Or, goddess forbid... they get say a trick arrow defender on the team, assume all defenders are empaths even though you TOLD them what you are, and do what you just described. Then complain when you not only don't heal them, but don't rez the team till after the battle. And then it's only cause you handed out seven wakies.
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Originally Posted by Hazygreys
The worst is when people get into the mindset of, "theres an emp on the team I won't die" only to run off on their own and get killed and then they wonk that you didn't heal them.
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"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Playing a proactive Emp is tiring. It's not for everyone. I know I really appreciate a good Emp when I'm on a team. A good anything really, but a good emp seems hard to find because it takes practice to be good.
My emp also chose the concealment pool, so I took Grant Invisibility to have another buff. Then I added Mystic Fortune. This is how I play:
I RA either when the group is all gathered together or when I call for them to gather near the melees. Melee toons have no choice but to be in the thick of it. Ranged can come join them. It makes no sense to me to say "Gather for RA" while you're standing away from battle and either leave out the melees or expect them to drag the fight to you (and possibly lose aggro so the mobs come after you.)
Fortitude on:
1. Defenders
2. Controllers
3. Blasters
4. Anyone else
CM proactively on all the squishies. By the time someone types "zzz" they might be dead, and seconds have passed that they're not fighting.
Invis on everyone but the tanks.
Mystic Fortune on everyone who wants it starting at the top of the team list and working down.
Then healing as needed.
I keep my view buff bar open so I can see when any buff drops. It really is tiring, but it's a good feeling to know that you're contributing to the team to the full extend of your ability.
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I'm sure someone else has probably said this, but that scenario is not unique to Empathy. Thermal plays like that too. Kinetics, to a lesser extent, as well. There are probably others too. Granted, Thermal isn't a DEFENDER power set, but being a controller just makes it WORSE as the team is also depending on you to lockdown an entire spawn, or a specific mob, or enemy mezzer (or in the case of malta, all of the above).
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Originally Posted by SPiNE
First time rolling an Empathy Defender in the past 3-4 years and boy is it tiring. Honestly, it feels more straining than any other powersets
...especially during low levels.Have to either CM everyone or pay attention to anyone who got mezzed. Have to keep Fortitude going on several different players. Have to keep healing most of the times. Have to gather the team or wait for an opportunity where everyone is grouped up for both RA auras. This is the most workout I've gotten in a long time. It's fun when I have the energy for it though :] |
I don't even think healing is the major time problem for Emp. Past a certain point, you aren't going to be healing much at all. Fort causes many more problems for me. Once you have 4 people (or even 5 with enough global) in the fort rotation, you have to stop what you are doing every 20-30 seconds to drop a fort on them. Miss your timing and you get a cascading dead period going through your rotation order until you catch back up.
I'd give anything to have Fort work like SB (even if it did work on fewer people), as buffing everyone in order every 2 minutes and being done is easier than spacing it out every 25 seconds.
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I totally agree with this assessment.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
I don't even think healing is the major time problem for Emp. Past a certain point, you aren't going to be healing much at all. Fort causes many more problems for me. Once you have 4 people (or even 5 with enough global) in the fort rotation, you have to stop what you are doing every 20-30 seconds to drop a fort on them. Miss your timing and you get a cascading dead period going through your rotation order until you catch back up.
I'd give anything to have Fort work like SB (even if it did work on fewer people), as buffing everyone in order every 2 minutes and being done is easier than spacing it out every 25 seconds. |
If I am in a situation where I start needing to spam heals, its because something has gone terribly wrong. Tank has bit the dust, group managed to pull 3 spawns instead of 1, etc...
This is not to say that I dont use my heals from time to time, because they do get used often enough that I would not want to live without them. Only that by being proactive on the buffs, I can spend ALOT less time healing and MORE time blasting.
Changing the way buffs are staggered (by changing durations) is definitely a QOL that I would sign up for. However, from what I have been told regarding the DEV's standpoint on whether BUFFs are "proactive" or "reactive", Its not likely to happen.
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