GR on massively: For the greater good
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2010-07-01 02:33 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Part of me wishes GG would read that. The rest of me just knows she'd respond with a one liner and that damned wink.
For my part, I agree with the article. In The Dark Knight Returns, it seems to finally dawn on Batman '"how many innocents I've murdered - by letting you live", in reference to the Joker.
Whats harder? To let a psychopathic murderer life because you are 'better than that', to stroke your own ego and think yourself civilised? Or to shoulder that burden of blood on your hands but no one elses, and to make sure he never harms another person?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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LOL, that's all you need to know--you've got it figured out. |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
The rest of me just knows she'd respond with a one liner and that damned wink.
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Interesting article and I happen to agree to an extent.
Yet, do we really want our heroes to be murderers?
Yes, Batman would probably do us all a favour by killing The Joker, and would probably save many innocent lives in the process. But does that mean we need to round up and kill all convicted murderers, or criminals and execute them?
Does it matter if we kill off all Skulls, Hellions, Trolls etc in the name of the greater good? The author seems to think it is a price worth paying for a safe and civilised society, yet its not as simple as that. Are Hellions really "evil" or simply misguided and misunderstood youths? Are Trolls really beyond redemption? I seem to remember a pleasant one in The Hollows.
The author states that wiping out the "bad eggs" of society would be better for humanity as a whole, but this is dangerous talk. Its interesting to see how close to the line people can get to before they realise they've just jumped over it.
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Theres a difference between giving people second and even thrid chances, and paying out of the taxpayers money to keep a multi-serial-killer in a cell thats more like a 5 star hotel room.|
Originally Posted by Peacemoon
Interesting article and I happen to agree to an extent.
Yet, do we really want our heroes to be murderers? Yes, Batman would probably do us all a favour by killing The Joker, and would probably save many innocent lives in the process. But does that mean we need to round up and kill all convicted murderers, or criminals and execute them? Does it matter if we kill off all Skulls, Hellions, Trolls etc in the name of the greater good? The author seems to think it is a price worth paying for a safe and civilised society, yet its not as simple as that. Are Hellions really "evil" or simply misguided and misunderstood youths? Are Trolls really beyond redemption? I seem to remember a pleasant one in The Hollows. The author states that wiping out the "bad eggs" of society would be better for humanity as a whole, but this is dangerous talk. Its interesting to see how close to the line people can get to before they realise they've just jumped over it. |
In the words of a wise man;
"Some people just want to watch the world burn."
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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There's another thread on this article in which you are proven correct. |
Techbot Alpha should get the news: Part of me wishes GG would read that. The rest of me just knows she'd respond with a one liner and that damned wink. |
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For my part, I agree with the article. In The Dark Knight Returns, it seems to finally dawn on Batman '"how many innocents I've murdered - by letting you live", in reference to the Joker. Whats harder? To let a psychopathic murderer life because you are 'better than that', to stroke your own ego and think yourself civilised? Or to shoulder that burden of blood on your hands but no one elses, and to make sure he never harms another person? |
Dec out.
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Your wish is granted >.> Yesterday. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=227981|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Part of me wishes GG would read that. The rest of me just knows she'd respond with a one liner and that damned wink.
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-Rachel-
*edit* Beat by 2 minutes. XD
Ffff, now I have to think even harder about which side my Praetorian hero is on - because her powers are inherently a "band-aid" rather than the great preventative measure that the Praetorian archvillains* use theirs as. As a forcefielder, she's extraordinarily well-suited to, say, rescuing people from a burning building, or thwarting a knife in the dark... but she isn't, and never was, the Superman/Batman sort who goes and whales on the baddies. And since the only situations in which she might be useful are those that are perpetrated by the Resistance... I have no idea what her backstory is anymore.
*word used because that's what they con as, no other reason
Interesting article. /em thumbsup
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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I fear I would not feel guilty or wrong about it.
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Originally Posted by Decorum
There's another thread on this article in which you are proven correct.
That's always been ambiguous to me. I'm pretty sure I'd snap his neck like a twig and feel guilty and wrong about it the rest of my life. But I'd still do it. |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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that is the issue though, batman is not at fault for letting the joker walk so often. functioning society requires competent capacity to hold criminals, arkam is a mess, but it is the fault of the people, not batman. if batman is supposed to be the executioner of the people because they are too stupid to correctly shackle a man who has no super powers, then it would be an interesting social commentary, but its not the idea of batman. besides, consider commissioner gordon in a killing joke, he specifically requests that batman does the right thing, even after being put through the worst the joker had, civilization held on.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Theres a difference between giving people second and even thrid chances, and paying out of the taxpayers money to keep a multi-serial-killer in a cell thats more like a 5 star hotel room.
In the words of a wise man; "Some people just want to watch the world burn." |
and as for my character versus the joker? he'd knock him out like anyone else and then admonish the police to "pay some freaking attention with this one". man cannot blame the fickleness of the gods for his misfortune when it is borne of his own stupidity.
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This may ring true the first time. The third? ...the fifty first? At a certain point as the body count grows, the hero has to learn. In that situation, having the guy arrested and walking away is no longer the same, as you KNOW the record. Since it's legal to use deadly force to save the life of a human, Bats would be supported by the authorities in offing joker as he tried to kill someone.
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
that is the issue though, batman is not at fault for letting the joker walk so often. functioning society requires competent capacity to hold criminals, arkam is a mess, but it is the fault of the people, not batman. if batman is supposed to be the executioner of the people because they are too stupid to correctly shackle a man who has no super powers, then it would be an interesting social commentary, but its not the idea of batman. besides, consider commissioner gordon in a killing joke, he specifically requests that batman does the right thing, even after being put through the worst the joker had, civilization held on.
and as for my character versus the joker? he'd knock him out like anyone else and then admonish the police to "pay some freaking attention with this one". man cannot blame the fickleness of the gods for his misfortune when it is borne of his own stupidity. |
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me too sir, me too!
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Damnit.
I'm a Loyalist now. |
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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still not buying it. I agree that the third of fourth time somebody should have learned, that was the police and gotham justice system, not bats. bats acts as a deputized police officer, he is authorized to apprehend the criminal, not try him, and not to execute a sentence on him. He is not responsible for a role that he does not take.and you should check the limitations of deadly force, they are a great deal more nuanced than how you present it here. clearly the joker presented numerous times when bats could have used that justification reactively to an attack, but once he neutralizes the threat,justifiable deadly force goes bye bye.
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Originally Posted by Seldom
This may ring true the first time. The third? ...the fifty first? At a certain point as the body count grows, the hero has to learn. In that situation, having the guy arrested and walking away is no longer the same, as you KNOW the record. Since it's legal to use deadly force to save the life of a human, Bats would be supported by the authorities in offing joker as he tried to kill someone.
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Gotham still looks to Batman to put the Joker away.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
still not buying it. I agree that the third of fourth time somebody should have learned, that was the police and gotham justice system, not bats.
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
bats acts as a deputized police officer, he is authorized to apprehend the criminal, not try him, and not to execute a sentence on him.
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
He is not responsible for a role that he does not take.and you should check the limitations of deadly force, they are a great deal more nuanced than how you present it here. clearly the joker presented numerous times when bats could have used that justification reactively to an attack, but once he neutralizes the threat,justifiable deadly force goes bye bye.
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Then he gets out again.
Then he kills X people to get Batman's attention.
Then Batman stops him, again, and the whole process starts over again.
Merely throwing the Joker in a revolving door prison just stalls the Joker. It doesn't fix ANYTHING. That's part of why I hate the Joker's depiction in modern comics, he has WAAAY too high a body count for a schmuck with no powers. I don't buy that he hasn't pissed off -someone- by now who's more than willing to kill him.
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
The greater good
I can see a rather large problem with some of this - Tyrant is not repressing Jokers - he's repressing everyone.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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The Death Star was also for the greater good - it was the thing that was going to bring pece to the galaxy |
Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
The greater good
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Of course he has. And they try. And they die.|
Originally Posted by Agonus
Gotham still looks to Batman to put the Joker away.
When was Bruce ever deputized? Batman's sworn to protect Gotham City. Bruce and the entire Bat Family have to know full well at this point that after they stop whatever scheme the Joker is up to, he'll get put in Arkham. Then he gets out again. Then he kills X people to get Batman's attention. Then Batman stops him, again, and the whole process starts over again. Merely throwing the Joker in a revolving door prison just stalls the Joker. It doesn't fix ANYTHING. That's part of why I hate the Joker's depiction in modern comics, he has WAAAY too high a body count for a schmuck with no powers. I don't buy that he hasn't pissed off -someone- by now who's more than willing to kill him. |
It isn't just that he is a complete madman, but he also seems to be on a par with Batman for out thinking his opposition.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
The Batman vs Joker example isn't really a very good one, as the Joker is simply too popular for the writers to kill off, so they're stuck in a cycle of having to have Batman win most of the time, as it's a superhero comic, while also needing to have the Joker on the lose because readers like that situation - so Batman is going to keep on arresting the Joker and the Joker is going to keep on escaping over and over and over again - because that's what the readers want - Batman winning and the Joker on the lose.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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The ends justify the means. |
Originally Posted by EU_Damz
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Originally Posted by SwellGuy
Of course he has. And they try. And they die.
It isn't just that he is a complete madman, but he also seems to be on a par with Batman for out thinking his opposition. |
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
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Only to a villain |
Originally Posted by Agonus
The ends justify the means.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I haven't been reading comics lately but I can only judge the Joker by the original use of him in the comics which was captured quite well in the Dark Knight and his use in the 70s and 80s.|
Originally Posted by Agonus
The ends justify the means.
I think you have it a little backwards. It's supposed to be Joker's unpredictability that makes him so dangerous and hard to catch. Still, if it comes down to it, Black Adam, or Deathstroke, or freaking Catman, or just some random officer or gang member with a gun should be able to take out the Joker. |
That Joker was smart and deadly and always ready with a means to kill someone he wanted dead. Now granted since it is a written fiction they can always set it up that way too so it gets a bit hard to do a what if on these guys. But I have to think in the Dark Knight his little gimicks like switching the hostages and his gang in the tower and pre-planning getting caught to kill the squealer is more than just being unpredictable.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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If by villain you mean... how did that article put it... someone willing to shoulder the burden for the greater good, than yeah, sure!
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Only to a villain
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Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
http://www.massively.com/2010/06/30/...-greater-good/
Theres the link and i think its a good read
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