GR on massively: For the greater good
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2010-07-01 02:33 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Well, I've already said that Bruce Wayne choosing to become Batman is a selfish way of acting out his own emotional issues. That's one thing.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Batman could just stop being Batman.
He could of become a policeman, officer Wayne of the GCPD. He could use the vast resources of Wayne tech to build asylums and jails that can't be escaped from. He funded the Watchtower after all in several continuitys. But instead, he dresses up as a bat and goes around kicking criminals in the face, despite a mass murderer telling him that he'll keep on killing while he does it. Why because some one has to be Batman? No because Bruce Wayne enjoys it, and when you get down to it he considers himself more important than any other person in the world, just because he lost his parents. |
But as for "I'll keep killing until you stop," that's still not Batman's responsibility. Again, it's like saying that the object of a stalker's obsession is responsible for what the stalker does. If they'd just gone out on the date and loved the stalker and married them and let the stalker control their life, then their cat would still be alive. It's all the person's fault, see?
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It's not quite the same thing, because the Joker has told Batman why he's doing it.|
Originally Posted by Starjammer
Well, I've already said that Bruce Wayne choosing to become Batman is a selfish way of acting out his own emotional issues. That's one thing.
But as for "I'll keep killing until you stop," that's still not Batman's responsibility. Again, it's like saying that the object of a stalker's obsession is responsible for what the stalker does. If they'd just gone out on the date and loved the stalker and married them and let the stalker control their life, then their cat would still be alive. It's all the person's fault, see? |
In your situation it would be like your stalker telling you "Every time you wear a pony tail, I'll kill people" and you then saying "Well **** that I like wearing a pony tail".
You could wear your hair a different way, Batman could help people another way, he chooses to be Batman, people die because of it, every kill the Joker has made since telling Batman that he'll kill because of him have been Batman's responsibility.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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A stalker's target knows why the stalker is doing what they're doing. Doesn't give the stalker the right to control the target's actions in even the slightest way. Doesn't make the stalker's actions the target's responsibility.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
It's not quite the same thing, because the Joker has told Batman why he's doing it.
In your situation it would be like your stalker telling you "Every time you wear a pony tail, I'll kill people" and you then saying "Well **** that I like wearing a pony tail". You could wear your hair a different way, Batman could help people another way, he chooses to be Batman, people die because of it, every kill the Joker has made since telling Batman that he'll kill because of him have been Batman's responsibility. |
But let's turn it around: Let's say (and I'm not really saying this, forumites) that I'm tired of this argument and you had better say you are wrong and I'm right, or I'll go kill somebody.
Now you know. I've warned you. What say you? Are you willing to take responsibility for another person's death because you can't admit you're wrong?
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I would but then I'm not an egotistical monster, who believes that's he the only important person in the world and that my vengeance filled crusade excuses causing the very tragedy I use to justify my actions, in the lives of countless others.
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Originally Posted by Starjammer
A stalker's target knows why the stalker is doing what they're doing. Doesn't give the stalker the right to control the target's actions in even the slightest way. Doesn't make the stalker's actions the target's responsibility.
But let's turn it around: Let's say (and I'm not really saying this, forumites) that I'm tired of this argument and you had better say you are wrong and I'm right, or I'll go kill somebody. Now you know. I've warned you. What say you? Are you willing to take responsibility for another person's death because you can't admit you're wrong? |
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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As soon as it's the side you take...
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
And at what point does the greater good become the greater evil?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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And what about killing people who oppose the dictatorship?
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Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
Intent. Killing for fun = evil. Killing to save hundreds or thousands from those that do kill for fun = good.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Well, "speaking out against Tyrant" seems to be s serious crime in Praetoria |
Originally Posted by SkarmoryThePG
Killed not without a reason, I presume.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Thank you for making me glad I haven't been able to afford comics for a couple of years, because that's just flat out stupid, IMHO.
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CactusBrawler keeps me happy: Batman 'dies' during the current DC run, Joker becomes Saxon Hale, a fairly nice gravedigger and possibly a crime fighter. |
Dec out.
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You do realize you're saying that it becomes your responsibility when someone uses extortion on you, don't you?|
CactusBrawler matches crime for crime: It's not quite the same thing, because the Joker has told Batman why he's doing it. In your situation it would be like your stalker telling you "Every time you wear a pony tail, I'll kill people" and you then saying "Well **** that I like wearing a pony tail". You could wear your hair a different way, Batman could help people another way, he chooses to be Batman, people die because of it, every kill the Joker has made since telling Batman that he'll kill because of him have been Batman's responsibility. |
/unsigned
Dec out.
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That's irrelevant. The whole, "What If?" scenario denotes that.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But the actual basic situation is invalid - it's not that it's implausible - it's simply impossible.
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Biggest Troll on the forums? I'll give you a hint:
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No one can take out Mr. J
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Originally Posted by Agonus
Gotham still looks to Batman to put the Joker away.
When was Bruce ever deputized? Batman's sworn to protect Gotham City. Bruce and the entire Bat Family have to know full well at this point that after they stop whatever scheme the Joker is up to, he'll get put in Arkham. Then he gets out again. Then he kills X people to get Batman's attention. Then Batman stops him, again, and the whole process starts over again. Merely throwing the Joker in a revolving door prison just stalls the Joker. It doesn't fix ANYTHING. That's part of why I hate the Joker's depiction in modern comics, he has WAAAY too high a body count for a schmuck with no powers. I don't buy that he hasn't pissed off -someone- by now who's more than willing to kill him. |
You heard it here first, folks. NovaFactor is in reality Harely Quinn. 
Dec out.
Well, I loved that Massively thing... I love when writers take up the mantle of their chosen theme and write roleplaying. I am almost dying to see what they will say when they take the role of the Resistance... I hope the same author would do that, so we can see how versatile is his/her skills.
For the Hitler discussion... If I had access to a time machine, I would try to change radically his life, trying to make him a person totally different. If that failled, I would then resort to mine his influence, changing his weight on the world. If even then it failled, then I would go to more direct and grievious acts. But I would always try for the thing that appeals to my heart first.
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This, pretty much. I even started the Supreme Society RPVG around the whole superhumans taking over the world concept from Squadron Supreme.|
Originally Posted by Ms. Mesmer
It's probably even closer to Mark Gruenwald's Squadron Supreme limited series. Building off of the history of an alternate Earth that had been visited by heroes from the main Marvel Earth, which had no less than three incidents where the planet was taken over (at least one of which involved a limited nuclear exchange, if memory serves) in the very recent past. The titular Justice League analogues decide to take charge and create a Utopia, using whatever means are at their disposal. It's a great read, if you haven't already been exposed to it.
Strangely enough, given the article that inspired this thread, the Batman analogue resigns from the group in protest over the lengths that they are willing to go to in the construction of their Utopia. |
I haven't read all the background on Praetorian Cole or pre-JMS Hyperion, but from what I know the two do seem to have a lot in common.
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
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I thought it was bad writing there too. |
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
anyone remember magog in kingdom come? this convo reminds me of that.
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Can't fathom why DC has decided to push the guy again. They should have left Magog as a take that against bad 90's characters.
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
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So, if some said they were going to kill 20 people a day for every day you used the internet, had fun, smiled, and were just generally happy.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
It's not quite the same thing, because the Joker has told Batman why he's doing it.
In your situation it would be like your stalker telling you "Every time you wear a pony tail, I'll kill people" and you then saying "Well **** that I like wearing a pony tail". You could wear your hair a different way, Batman could help people another way, he chooses to be Batman, people die because of it, every kill the Joker has made since telling Batman that he'll kill because of him have been Batman's responsibility. |
You'd let yourself be miserable?
Doubtful.
Batman is neither responsible for Joker, or accountable for the murders Joker commits.
Just because Batman is Joker's fixation, is no fault of Batmans.
And even if Batman killed Joker, everyone would change their tune, start calling Batman a killer and want him brought in for killing.
If Joker fixated on Commissioner Gordon, should Gordon give up his carreer, possibly never have another job, because Joker has fixated on him?
There's a reason people don't give into terrorists.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Yes either that or kill you, as I said I'm not going to hold the world to my own flawed moral code, and decide that said code is worth more than everyone elses life.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
So, if some said they were going to kill 20 people a day for every day you used the internet, had fun, smiled, and were just generally happy.
You'd let yourself be miserable? Doubtful. Batman is neither responsible for Joker, or accountable for the murders Joker commits. Just because Batman is Joker's fixation, is no fault of Batmans. And even if Batman killed Joker, everyone would change their tune, start calling Batman a killer and want him brought in for killing. If Joker fixated on Commissioner Gordon, should Gordon give up his carreer, possibly never have another job, because Joker has fixated on him? There's a reason people don't give into terrorists. |
The state has its hands tied in the Joker's case, since he's clinically insane (at least the state says so) and Batman refuses to do so, in fact actively goes out of his way to keep the Joker alive.
Difference is we kill terrorists, Batman in this case is not giving into terrorists causing them to kill innocents in reprisal, and then preventing anyone else from killing said terrorists.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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If you kill a terroritst, you get put on trial. Whether you get found guilty or not guilty, is up to the jury.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Yes either that or kill you, as I said I'm not going to hold the world to my own flawed moral code, and decide that said code is worth more than everyone elses life.
The state has its hands tied in the Joker's case, since he's clinically insane (at least the state says so) and Batman refuses to do so, in fact actively goes out of his way to keep the Joker alive. Difference is we kill terrorists, Batman in this case is not giving into terrorists causing them to kill innocents in reprisal, and then preventing anyone else from killing said terrorists. |
12 people who will could just as easily be "Kill him" one minute and "You're a killer" the next.
You keep trying to put the blame on Batman, when a cop could of killed him by now as well.
*Joker is handcuffed being led away*
*Cop leading him away, pulls his weapon, shoots Joker in the head*
*Problem solved*
*Joker is handcuffed being led away*
*Crowd is gathered*
*Someone in the crowd pulls out a gun and shoots and kills the Joker*
With your view. It would be everyone's fault. No one wants to be the one to just outright kill him. So he keeps killing everyone. Anyone could of killed him by now. No one has wanted to pull the trigger and murder.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Last I knew, save for Gordon, Batman's already on the wrong side of the law due to that whole vigilante thing. They're already after him.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
...
And even if Batman killed Joker, everyone would change their tune, start calling Batman a killer and want him brought in for killing. |
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Originally Posted by BrandX
If Joker fixated on Commissioner Gordon, should Gordon give up his carreer, possibly never have another job, because Joker has fixated on him?
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Originally Posted by BrandX
There's a reason people don't give into terrorists.
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Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
The Massively article and this thread are making mountains out of molehills. Praetoria as described on the official site isn't some complex ethical question; it's just another dictatorship using the same facile justifications they always do. And the whole Batman/Joker argument is just silly since the situation is entirely artificial. The Joker isn't executed or permanently imprisoned because DC wants to keep selling comic books with him in it. Reading an ethical argument into that is just silly.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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That does depend a lot on the realness of the threat to Praetoria, I think.|
Originally Posted by Venture
The Massively article and this thread are making mountains out of molehills. Praetoria as described on the official site isn't some complex ethical question; it's just another dictatorship using the same facile justifications they always do.
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If Tyrant is facing a genuine threat, then that makes his evil actions more complex than if he's just using a fake threat to help keep himself in power.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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It's been said in a few places that the vast majority of candidates for the superhuman division are "sent overseas", but since any friends or relatives who inquire into their fates disappear as well it's clear they've been greased. If there was a legitimate threat the state wouldn't be throwing away resources like that.
| If Tyrant is facing a genuine threat, then that makes his evil actions more complex than if he's just using a fake threat to help keep himself in power. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Well, I'm not in beta, so this is all guess work. Part of me holds out strong hope that you can make heroic and villainous choices whether you are a Loyalist or Rebellion in Praetoria. Your choices should decide your morality, not which side you happen to be with.
At least, that would be the more interesting choice, given how Paragon and the Rogue Isles are set up. And I can see there being wriggle room for it happening in the dev statements I've seen so far. But I'm not holding out any hopes, just in case.
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He could of become a policeman, officer Wayne of the GCPD.
He could use the vast resources of Wayne tech to build asylums and jails that can't be escaped from. He funded the Watchtower after all in several continuitys.
But instead, he dresses up as a bat and goes around kicking criminals in the face, despite a mass murderer telling him that he'll keep on killing while he does it.
Why because some one has to be Batman? No because Bruce Wayne enjoys it, and when you get down to it he considers himself more important than any other person in the world, just because he lost his parents.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.