Quote:
I think it doesn't matter. Let's just look at Oppressive Gloom.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
That's a different case, as Tankers are not specifically control oriented entirely (it does encompass a part of their role though).
|
For 0.07 endurance per second and a negligible self damage, you can render minions helpless, and enable boss stuns if the tanker has any other stun power. This kind of mitigation will prolong the life of the tanker, allowing him to better serve his purpose on the team: control aggro. The stun duration is less than the taunt duration, so all mobs will wander back. There are no obvious downsides to this power, so by all semblance of logic, it's a no-brainer. Any Dark Armor tank without Oppressive Gloom is gimping themselves.
Except you can build an effective Dark Armor tank without Oppressive Gloom. I offer proof of that with all four blueside Mo* badges, and I just recently posted a screenshot of my Dark Armor tank holding the aggro of four AVs in addition to Reichsman.
The reason I bring all this up is because you can build an effective Widow without TT:maneuvers. You can build an effective anything without anything. You won't know it until you see what the player is capable of. Missing a power you deem essential does not mean the player or the character is an invalid waste of space on your team.
All I'm asking is that you give these people a chance.
Find out if they have built and can play an effective character before kicking them off the team. Don't just assume.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Instead I'll ask you if it's important to take RttC on a WP Tanker or whether you feel that power is skippable - because that's how important TT: Maneuvers and ML are (and I'm pretty sure you recognize them as such, you just want to play this game that it isn't for some reason).
|
There's not enough information present. The absence of any one power does not invalidate a build.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Otherwise, I'd be free to use an opposing assumption to yours stating that the player with the better build is most probably a better player overall as they have a better understand of game mechanics. Then you're a rational player. |
Im just going to have to say I disagree with you and bow out. Not that the power isnt vital to the character or a good to great one, but that it invalidates a characters team-contribution if he doesnt have it. Im saying the former and yer saying the later and I dont think you see that...in fact I think virtually everyone is saying the former but you.
Best of luck
Frog
Quote:
I'm not sure what you think you're proving, I just said I don't think you need either of those powers.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Except you can build an effective Dark Armor tank without Oppressive Gloom. I offer proof of that with all four blueside Mo* badges, and I just recently posted a screenshot of my Dark Armor tank holding the aggro of four AVs in addition to Reichsman.
|
Let me guess, you built for Defenses. You know, the stuff that Maneuvers and Mind Link provide to the whole team.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
The reason I bring all this up is because you can build an effective Widow without TT:maneuvers.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Frogfather
but that it invalidates a characters team-contribution if he doesnt have it.
|
Can you contribute without it? Yes.
Can you contribute as much? Clearly not.
I'll ask again, since no one seems to want to build it or address it- what could be so important that out of 24 power choices you can't set 2 aside for TT: M & ML on a Widow Build?
Quote:
You seem to think that a power with minimal cost and immense team benefit is essential. I provided a similar power with similar teamwide benefits. Instead of increased defense, every minion is doing zero damage while stunned. By your line of logic, the powers is essential.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I'm not sure what you think you're proving, I just said I don't think you need either of those powers.
|
I'm proving that the essential power is not needed.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Let me guess, you built for Defenses. You know, the stuff that Maneuvers and Mind Link provide to the whole team.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I'll ask again, since no one seems to want to build it or address it- what could be so important that out of 24 power choices you can't set 2 aside for TT: M & ML on a Widow Build?
|
If I build a widow with TT:Maneuvers, Leadership:Maneuvers, Mind Link, and all the other teambuff powers you deem essential but no attacks, will I still be welcome on your team?
Is my widow's purpose to provide support to the team? Taking that to the extreme, I get every power I can that helps a team. Medicine pool and every leadership toggle I can. I keep stimulant up on everyone all the time. Now I can't sustain enough endurance or have time to attack. Forget whether I've taken the attacks or not. I built a character with your essential powers, I must be better than the guy who skipped TT:Maneuvers in favor of a build he made that can solo AVs.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
I'm sorry but now you're just being purposefully obtuse.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I'll ask again, since you don't seem to want to address it.
If I build a widow with TT:Maneuvers, Leadership:Maneuvers, Mind Link, and all the other teambuff powers you deem essential but no attacks, will I still be welcome on your team? |
Attacks are obviously essential, but keep up the the good fallacy.
I know this might be news to you, since you're busy with your spreadsheets wondering if RttC is important or not, but you can actually take like 6 or 7 attacks, fully slot them AND manage to not only fit maneuvers and ML into your build, but a variety of other powers as well!
I know these things, because I have a widow that managed to pull off this amazing feat.
Did you know we get 24 powers? It's awesome!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Is my widow's purpose to provide support to the team? Taking that to the extreme, I get every power I can that helps a team. Medicine pool and every leadership toggle I can. I keep stimulant up on everyone all the time. Now I can't sustain enough endurance or have time to attack. Forget whether I've taken the attacks or not. I built a character with your essential powers, I must be better than the guy who skipped TT:Maneuvers in favor of a build he made that can solo AVs.
|
Since it's based on nonsense, I'm just going to ignore it.
Let me know when you can come up with something that actually has substance.
Quote:
Your argument is that a widow without TT:Maneuvers is useless. Useless to a point of deserving to be kicked immediately, no questions asked. How about you provide some substance to back up this claim?|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Let me know when you can come up with something that actually has substance.
|
I'm merely arguing that the absence of a single power does not invalidate a player's contribution to a team.
Stop arguing that they should be able to fit the power in with the 24 choices available. That's irrelevant. It's not a matter of not finding room so much as simply not having a desire to pick it. For whatever reason the player does not pick the power. I'll say it again, the reason is not relevant.
The exclusion of one power is not a reason enough to dismiss a player's ability to contribute to a team.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Widow have only 3 out of 7 support powers.
Nightwidow have 5 out of 13. If you count vengeance...but since someone else as to die. it's 50-50 selfish/team power.
Fortunata have 5 out ofr 12. If you count vengeance.
Soldiers have 3 out of 8.
Crab have 3 out of 12.
Bane have 3 out of 12.
That's not what i'd call "support" secondary. It's a mix of self-defense and support. Just like dom's assault set are a mix of melee and ranged attacks, or an invuln is a mix of resistance and defense.
It's not my place to make an effective build that doesn't have TT:M. I'd take it. But i believe someone could, if that's what he wanted for his character. Just like i skipped the "important" power on some character.
Since you mentionned RTTC with WP, i'm pretty sure you think the same of invincibility for Invuln? I skipped it, for two years. For my playstyle, it wasn't needed. I can still do insane damage and i've soloed bunch of AVs without any insps or temps. Does that mean i'm not usefull for a team? I'm doing exactly what any scrapper without a taunt aura would do.
Seems "gimped builds" have a lot more to do with expectation then what someone actually brings to the team. If you say a brute's role is to tank (not merely take alpha), it's not clearly what the community believe. Half people say they are like scrapper, the other half like tanker.
But since i declared in big cap letter that i'm not a tank in my search comment, i guess i'd be okay with your upfront policy. =P
(Now that i have invincibility, my character is actually weaker in 1 vs 1. On the other hand, i might be able to solo more then one AV at once. Wich is the only reason i took it. =p)
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
[W]hat could be so important that out of 24 power choices you can't set 2 aside for TT: M & ML on a Widow Build?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Nice strawman attack.
|
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
You're correct, and I probably overstated the support focus.|
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
That's not what i'd call "support" secondary. It's a mix of self-defense and support. Just like dom's assault set are a mix of melee and ranged attacks, or an invuln is a mix of resistance and defense.
|
The fact that TT: M & ML increase your own survivability is what has m baffled on why anyone would want to justify skipping it.
It's fundamentally a very powerful, and endurance efficient way to protect yourself - it also happens to do the same for the rest of the team which is what makes it so amazing.
Quote:
True, but the same can also be said for invincibility and i didn't need to for a very long while. Or with AS, but i've seen a stalker without it that contributed more then anyone else on the team (and a lot more then all the stalkers that just AS-hide-AS-hide) So i'm sure someone could have a reason to skip it.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
You're correct, and I probably overstated the support focus.
The fact that TT: M & ML increase your own survivability is what has m baffled on why anyone would want to justify skipping it. It's fundamentally a very powerful, and endurance efficient way to protect yourself - it also happens to do the same for the rest of the team which is what makes it so amazing. |
Actually, it's a lot more for TT:M then ML that i aggree. ML, until you can use hami-o have a pretty crappy recharge. So it's very situationnal and i prefer powers that you can use a lot. Until 47, i could easily see someone skipping ML.
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
Quote:
Some people have different priorities of importance, thus it's inherently subjective which abilities are "important". And they may prove to be a competent enough player even if their priorities differ from yours.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Some sets have more important powers than others, so it depends on the set.
|
Quote:
| If you want to work out a widow build that does not take either Mind Link nor TT: Maneuvers and explain why you think it's a better build for not having those - I'll be happy to read it. |
One perfectly valid reason could be "it's a better build because it doesn't have the power to make dancing purple shield icons swirl about".
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Don't need HOs for mind link. IOs will work as well to enhance recharge. Just need seperate sets of Def/Recharge and you are set.
Quote:
Nice to know, if i ever make a widow. |
Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
Don't need HOs for mind link. IOs will work as well to enhance recharge. Just need seperate sets of Def/Recharge and you are set.
|
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
Quote:
Okay I will offer my opinion.|
Originally Posted by Sam_Sneed
So over the last two weeks, I'd say roughly 90% of the Widows I have invited have not had Tactical Maneuvers or Mind Link. WTH? Is this a new fad or something. I just don't get it. It's not like it only buffs your team. As a widow those two powers provide you with most of your defense also. I just don't get it.
|
First off, Night Widows DON'T NEED Mind Link. That is your first mistake. Yes Mind Link gives a super good buff to the player and their teammates, but you can build the character to not require the use of Mind Link.
On my Night Widow I have Mind Link, but I rarely use it because I am already soft capped from just my normal powers. A Night Widow not taking Tactical Maneuvers is just weird, but not taking Mink Link isn't that odd.
I never skip it, but I could understand someone that did skip it if they built their character right.
Quote:
| When I invite a Kin, I expect SB. When I invite a Mastermind, I expect pets. When I invite a VEAT, I expect team defense buffs. If your going to make some jacked up build, you have every right to, but atleast put it in your search comments that you have skipped your most essential powers. I'm tired of being labeled the jerk because I kick these people from my team, but unless you have a good team with all good players, a Widow with no defense buffs is a liability. |
When I form my teams I do not go for a mix, I basically tell people to bring what they want and then I proceed to lay waste to whatever is in my Night Widows path. From time to time I will remember to call out Mind Link to buff people, but 95% of the time we are moving along so fast that it really doesn't matter if they have it or not.
Personally I would label you a jerk for kicking someone because you do not approve of their build, and it is also very petty. Rather than kick them because they can't give you the buffs you want, why not just build you character better to make up the gap. I understand that buffs help, but think about the days before VEAT came around. There were plenty of teams where no one had Leadership etc and things still progressed just fine.
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Novella
Okay I will offer my opinion.
First off, Night Widows DON'T NEED Mind Link. That is your first mistake. Yes Mind Link gives a super good buff to the player and their teammates, but you can build the character to not require the use of Mind Link. On my Night Widow I have Mind Link, but I rarely use it because I am... |
You rarely use it because you probably don't realize it's the superior power.
If you have enough recharge slotted + global recharge to where ML is perma - it grants more Defense to both you and your team, precious PSI resistance and +5% to hit (unslotted).
It does all that, for less endurance cost overall than TT: Maneuvers.
So you might want to reconsider before telling other people they are making a mistake.
I guess the OP was expecting an orange (would have made him sweet) but got a lemon (made him sour), perhaps he should have had a good look before taking a bite.
Quote:
If you have to put stipulations on it, it can't be such a clear cut superior power. Recharge is expensive to build for.
|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
If you have enough recharge slotted + global recharge to where ML is perma - it grants more Defense to both you and your team, precious PSI resistance and +5% to hit (unslotted).
|
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
I inserted numbers to clarify some important points.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
1. You rarely use it because you probably don't realize it's the superior power. 2. If you have enough recharge slotted + global recharge to where ML is perma - it grants more Defense to both you and your team, precious PSI resistance and +5% to hit (unslotted). It does all that, for less endurance cost overall than TT: Maneuvers. 3. So you might want to reconsider before telling other people they are making a mistake. |
1. You say I may rarely use it, and as such I would not realize how hip and swinging a power it is. Maybe I just play as a psuedo blaster, and view killing as fast as possible as being more important to me than a few seconds of survival. I just happen to like the cape, or the hat, or (gasp) prefer to RP, or enjoy redside more.
2. Hi! I have barely enough money to slot with generic IOs, after purchasing salvage. I have a few sets. I simply do not have the time, or patience, to go off and waste my life in Market PVP. I am an extreme casual player. Do not remind me of the glory I might have if I spent more time uping regen this, or recharge that. Let me be happy enjoying myself with far sub-par slotting, I am having fun, I will never have this perma ML you speak of, so it would be great if you simply left this out of the argument.
3. Before you state that other people are making a mistake, you might want to reconsider what mistakes you are making.
-------
Hew in drag baby
Quote:
It's actually cheaper to frankenslot with a couple of Def/Rech IOs than replace SOs every few levels. They're pitifully cheap on the markets because Defense/Recharge isn't a desirable combo most of the time. As long as you go for Yellow ones rather than Orange the Salvage required is fairly cheap too.|
Originally Posted by OneFrigidWitch
2. Hi! I have barely enough money to slot with generic IOs, after purchasing salvage. I have a few sets. I simply do not have the time, or patience, to go off and waste my life in Market PVP. I am an extreme casual player. Do not remind me of the glory I might have if I spent more time uping regen this, or recharge that. Let me be happy enjoying myself with far sub-par slotting, I am having fun, I will never have this perma ML you speak of, so it would be great if you simply left this out of the argument.
|
People claiming you need to "Market PvP" to get something like Def/Recharge IOs at 25 or 30 are simply incorrect. They're vendor trash to most people and priced accordingly.
Quote:
Carnifax... you misread. I had mentioned slotting with Generic _IO_s. Definitely not SOs. Thats all. |
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
It's actually cheaper to frankenslot with a couple of Def/Rech IOs than replace SOs every few levels. They're pitifully cheap on the markets because Defense/Recharge isn't a desirable combo most of the time. As long as you go for Yellow ones rather than Orange the Salvage required is fairly cheap too.
People claiming you need to "Market PvP" to get something like Def/Recharge IOs at 25 or 30 are simply incorrect. They're vendor trash to most people and priced accordingly. |
I don't think anyone uses SOs anymore.... I don't even know why they exist to be frank.
-------
Hew in drag baby
Quote:
Well you would be very wrong on your assumption. I am very well aware of the awesomeness of Mind Link, but as I said before it is not a power that one HAS to use. MY Night Widow has 85% global recharge from IOs and Mind Link is perma, but I am too busy mowing down enemies to be worried about constantly buffing my teammates who are also mowing down things.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
You rarely use it because you probably don't realize it's the superior power. If you have enough recharge slotted + global recharge to where ML is perma - it grants more Defense to both you and your team, precious PSI resistance and +5% to hit (unslotted). It does all that, for less endurance cost overall than TT: Maneuvers. So you might want to reconsider before telling other people they are making a mistake. |
The psi resistance is a nice benefit, but not needed if you aren't fighting things that use psi attacks. Even when fighting Arachnos and their psi damage the Dominators take them out of the fight and I kill them or teammates kill them before they even become a factor. Additionally the added 5% to-hit is useless to be since I am already loaded with mucho accuracy and other buffs from teammates.
I stand by my initial post. I have nothing that needs to be reconsidered because the way I play has worked perfectly for myself and my teammates all this time and if it isn't broke then I see not point in fixing anything.
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
Something not being broken doesn't mean it cannot be improved.
Using Mind Link (especially if you've got enough recharge for it to be perma) would be a big improvement.
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Quote:
Of course everything can be improved, but the way I play and the performance I get from my Night Widow without needing to use Mind Link all the time is optimal. There is no need for me to stop every now and then to use Mind Link when I can just keep going non-stop and defeat enemies without being defeated and progress missions with my teammates.|
Originally Posted by Silas
Something not being broken doesn't mean it cannot be improved.
Using Mind Link (especially if you've got enough recharge for it to be perma) would be a big improvement. |
Sure using Mind Link all the time would be nice since it would add more defense, but when you are already above 50% the only thing it is really doing is giving to-hit which doesn't really help me since I have load of to-hit and accuracy already and add some psi resistance when I am not fighting many psi enemies.
I do use Mind Link, but there are many times where I just honestly forget to click it because it doesn't hinder my build or my teams to forget to use it. All I am saying is that people need to stop thinking that Night Widows NEED to use Mind Link as if it will be the end of the world if they don't. I am proof that you can have an elite build and not depend on Mind Link for survival.
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
How do you feel about the control auras on a Dark Armor tank? Seeing as they provide protection to the team in the form of control/debuff and taunt and provide solid mitigation to the tank itself, at least one of the two should be essential, right?
They are also difficult to run for a build that isn't prepared for it, and not effective vs. everything (read: cimerorans).
They also do not provide the same kind of teamwide protection, with the ease of use of TT: Maneuvers or Mind Link.
(Dark) Tankers also have other options to "control" mobs - specifically leveraging their taunt aura, using the Taunt power if they have it, and Gauntlet.
We're talking about support powers, on a set of ATs that have support as part of their focus.
And we're talking about powers that were specifically revamped from the pool powers to be better, and more effective and part of the overall design and impact of VEATs.
Tankers are not specifically support in terms of providing buffs/debuffs - and no one expects that from them when they join a team.
Instead I'll ask you if it's important to take RttC on a WP Tanker or whether you feel that power is skippable - because that's how important TT: Maneuvers and ML are (and I'm pretty sure you recognize them as such, you just want to play this game that it isn't for some reason).