You both bring up a number of valid points. I do however agree with Timeshadow that not everyone is comfortable with spending 6 hours and multiple attempts doing ITF, as an example. When things aren't running smoothly, people have a tendency to start losing interest rapidly. One person gets frustrated and leaves, and it affects everyone else. One person becomes three. Three becomes the entire team. I have been invited to TFs/teams that were slapped together in minutes and fell apart equally quickly after the first wipe on more than one occasion.
I don't expect people to have IO'd builds. I don't even expect everyone I group with to have every one of their "unskippable" powers. These are things I cannot control, but they do have a direct impact on the performance of the group. As Dechs pointed out, you can try to lead by example and turn a few people around to your build/IO philosophy, but the people you get through to will be the minority.
What I can control are things like the group's basic composition (do we have enough support to do this comfortably? Enough damage to do it expediently?) and the overall tone of the run. As such, I do not think it is unreasonable for me to try and give my team an advantage if it is in my power to do so. If that means choosing between a defender that has no primary powers and one that took most of his primary powers, I'm probably going to choose the latter. There is no guarantee they will contribute more to the team than the person with no primary powers, but they are more likely to than not, and that's usually all I have to go on.
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I've never spent six hours on a TF. Even Dr. Q was finished in under four.|
Originally Posted by Kenji_Naginata
I do however agree with Timeshadow that not everyone is comfortable with spending 6 hours and multiple attempts doing ITF, as an example. When things aren't running smoothly, people have a tendency to start losing interest rapidly.
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Joking aside, I definitely see where you're coming from. If you'll pay close attention, you'll notice I've never failed to complete a TF with a full team. Sometimes tough enemies are hard to beat, but that's why I never leave home without an HVAS anymore. There are only two scenarios I remember not finishing. One was an STF with six people (no support) that couldn't beat Ghost Widow. The other was a team of four that had enough trouble with the computer to know that Rommy and his Nictusesesi (never sure about the plural of Nictus) were our of our league.
The full disclosure is that I play on Virtue and I form my TFs from the global channels. I've found that people who grasp the concept of global channels more often than not understand how to build a character well (I've been surprised, of course), but in addition to that I have a large number of friends by now that I know play well. The common case is I have four "DKTF regulars" with me who can complete the TF on their own. Anyone else is gravy.
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The character is a Brute, not a Tanker. In all honesty, I can't stand Tankers - trying to solo one feels somewhere between glacial and immovably slow.
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Originally Posted by Kenji_Naginata
If that is what's fun to us, then we are no more delusional than you are for choosing to roll a fire tanker with no fire sword attacks because they don't fit your character concept.
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You should try a Fire/Fire Tanker. Or a Fire/Ice they both deal sexy damage for a Tanker.
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Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
The character is a Brute, not a Tanker. In all honesty, I can't stand Tankers - trying to solo one feels somewhere between glacial and immovably slow.
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Ok, time to watch my rep go in the tank. I'm in the minority here to a point. I would kick somoene for not having ceartain powers at higher levels.
Examples are:
Any bubbler without bubbles.
A kin without FS. No SB is ok in my book but it would be nice to have.
Any scrapper, tank, brute or stalker that did not take mez protection.
Any MM without pets.
Any Defender with only one attack.
Any VEAT that did not take TT:Manuvers.
Now with that being said, let me qualify my position a bit. Bubblers without bubbles I would ask them if they have a second build better suited for teams, if not, bye bye after the mission.
In addition, I would not kick a newer player with only a few vet badges for those reasons. I would try to educate them on better options. However if they have 3 years + of vet badges, to me this tells me they either purchased the account from someone else, are borrowing the account from somone else, or they do not know how to play the game even with 3 years of practice. And I just don't want to have to deal with any of those types of people. Even if you have never played a certain AT or played very little, after 3+ years of being on teams with others, you should be able to pick up what is needed to be successful.
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Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
Ok, time to watch my rep go in the tank. I'm in the minority here to a point. I would kick somoene for not having ceartain powers at higher levels.
Examples are: Any bubbler without bubbles. A kin without FS. No SB is ok in my book but it would be nice to have. Any scrapper, tank, brute or stalker that did not take mez protection. Any MM without pets. Any Defender with only one attack. Any VEAT that did not take TT:Manuvers. Now with that being said, let me qualify my position a bit. Bubblers without bubbles I would ask them if they have a second build better suited for teams, if not, bye bye after the mission. In addition, I would not kick a newer player with only a few vet badges for those reasons. I would try to educate them on better options. However if they have 3 years + of vet badges, to me this tells me they either purchased the account from someone else, are borrowing the account from somone else, or they do not know how to play the game even with 3 years of practice. And I just don't want to have to deal with any of those types of people. Even if you have never played a certain AT or played very little, after 3+ years of being on teams with others, you should be able to pick up what is needed to be successful. |
I agree with this completely.
Unfortunately, you stand a good chance of now being labeled a build nazi as I was.
This is because people think it's ridiculous for you to expect players to come to the table with a build intended for teaming, and a team focused approach to playing when they want to join a team.
On a side note, I'd be much happier if veteran players would send you a tell that their build has skipped X, knowing it's an important skill - I'd even be more apt to invite them since they were upfront with me.
I find that in the majority of the cases, it simply doesn't happen.
Not letting the team know beforehand is deceptive, and selfish.
Basically from my perspective, they want on a team to reap the rewards of teaming (faster XP, merits, etc.) but were unwilling to build for it, as well as unwilling to be upfront about the build decisions they made skipping powers widely considered essential. (Obviously if this is a new player, this isn't the case, I'm much more lenient with new players.)
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I agree with this completely.
Unfortunately, you stand a good chance of now being labeled a build nazi as I was. This is because people think it's ridiculous for you to expect players to come to the table with a build intended for teaming, and a team focused approach to playing when they want to join a team. On a side note, I'd be much happier if veteran players would send you a tell that their build has skipped X, knowing it's an important skill - I'd even be more apt to invite them since they were upfront with me. I find that in the majority of the cases, it simply doesn't happen. Not letting the team know beforehand is deceptive, and selfish. Basically from my perspective, they want on a team to reap the rewards of teaming (faster XP, merits, etc.) but were unwilling to build for it, as well as unwilling to be upfront about the build decisions they made skipping powers widely considered essential. (Obviously if this is a new player, this isn't the case, I'm much more lenient with new players.) |
While I respect the opinion, it always is hard for me to enforce.
1. At what level do I expect people to have these "team" oriented powers? To be honest TT: Manuevers doesnt help me level solo at 6 or 8 or 10 as much as another attack or movement power might. Defense is largely ineffectual until you get DOs at the very least, and if someone made the case for SOs I wouldnt argue
2. Whats the difference between a well-played aggressive anticipatory build with poor teaming choices and a poorly played team oriented build in terms of xp? Id rather have the former before the latter.
3. If we as a team are having success, how much is in spite this solo-oriented build and how much is because of?
4. How do I know the next guy will be better?
If I can answer those questions I may be okay with kicking someone who builds a certain way. Im pretty sure I cant answer those questions effectively.
At the end of the day if the guys an ****** Ill kick him, if he's not then he stays.
True, but if you are lvl 40 and don't have TT manuvers yet, you have issues. You are either ignorant or stupid. The former can be fixed but you just cant fix stupid.
And what if that guy who doesnt have TT:M contributes in other ways? Say he can rip down a pack of 6 by himself with build up : venom grenade : frag grenade : heavy burst... ?
But since he isnt giving YOU a bonus, he isnt good? He isnt contributing (even though he IS), or at least not YOUR way, so again, he's no good?
Wheres the logic there?
That kinda sounds... stupid.
Like ya said, cant fix stupid....
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Yeah, I think I'll make a soldier who just gets the TT powers, adds on leadership powers, a few travel powers, and maybe the medicine pool. Never attack, but hey, I've got the essential powers.|
Originally Posted by Bru_Tal
And what if that guy who doesnt have TT:M contributes in other ways? Say he can rip down a pack of 6 by himself with build up : venom grenade : frag grenade : heavy burst... ?
But since he isnt giving YOU a bonus, he isnt good? He isnt contributing (even though he IS), or at least not YOUR way, so again, he's no good? Wheres the logic there? That kinda sounds... stupid. Like ya said, cant fix stupid.... |
EDIT: Please note my sarcasm.
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The essentials according to you, yeah.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Yeah, I think I'll make a soldier who just gets the TT powers, adds on leadership powers, a few travel powers, and maybe the medicine pool. Never attack, but hey, I've got the essential powers.
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Sounds like this guy would be able to stay on your team then, huh?
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The difference is that this is a dumb, stacked example specifically fabricated to make your point seem like it make sense.|
Originally Posted by Frogfather
2. Whats the difference between a well-played aggressive anticipatory build with poor teaming choices and a poorly played team oriented build in terms of xp?
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Don't worry, you're not the only one in the thread who keeps perpetrating this myth of the 'awesomely played' no maneuvers widow vs. the poorly played well built widow.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bru_Tal
And what if that guy who doesnt have TT:M contributes in other ways? Say he can rip down a pack of 6 by himself with build up : venom grenade : frag grenade : heavy burst... ?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bru_Tal
But since he isnt giving YOU a bonus, he isnt good? He isnt contributing (even though he IS), or at least not YOUR way, so again, he's no good?
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How is not helping yourself out with a huge freaking defense bonus not good for you solo?
Here's a little run down, in case people aren't aware of the actual numbers.
The Widow version of TT: Manuvers adds more DEF for less endurance cost than Weave does for Scrappers & Brutes - and an equal amount as it would for the Widow.
On top of that it grants this defense to the entire team.
Wait it gets better.
If you happen to have other VEATs, it stacks.
The Soldier version grants double that.
So you have Weave or better +Def without needing Boxing or Tough, you can take it at level 10, costs you less endurance than weave and provides that defense to your entire team as well.
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Odds are they won't survive the aggro that generates without a Brute or MM to distract the foes. It'd be a helluva lot easier to just take and slot the power. Forget the team, just consider that it helps you cut loose in relative safety.|
Originally Posted by Bru_Tal
And what if that guy who doesnt have TT:M contributes in other ways? Say he can rip down a pack of 6 by himself with build up : venom grenade : frag grenade : heavy burst... ?
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Let's just be honest here. When it gets right down to it how many of us would actually build a VEAT without TT: M? And I don't mean considering IOs to perma Mind Link or otherwise softcap without it. Just a plain ol' SO'd VEAT?
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What constitutes an "important skill" can be pretty subjective.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
On a side note, I'd be much happier if veteran players would send you a tell that their build has skipped X, knowing it's an important skill - I'd even be more apt to invite them since they were upfront with me.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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That would be the first power in your secondary, and one of the two first ones in your primary.|
Originally Posted by Sam_Sneed
The game was designed a certain way, and there are certain powers in each set that are not suppose to be skipped.
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Everything else, the player has a choice about.
Don't like it, too bad. If I see someone skipping a power they may not understand (or even catch it by what they say,) I'll send a polite tell. "Hey, did you know X power does XYZ? Might help you. Throw it on your second build, see how it works for you/PM me, I'll show you on mine/etc." But kick? No. Only if somone's being completely incompetent, a leech, or build nazi ("You don't have this, you suck!") will any kicking (or leaving, if I'm not the leader) be done.
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You know, I actually wish the game was designed so that there really were no "must have" powers in any set. That's a pipe dream though. The fact is there are some powers that will make you more or less effective if you take them. But I agree with you, you can't force people to take powers they don't want. Also circumstances for certain builds may lead to skipping powers. I can see skipping Maneuvers on a Widow or Fort, not so much on a Huntsman, Bane, or Crab. Your insanity on that opinion my vary. I'm also up late with insomnia and I hope this post makes sense in the morning.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
That would be the first power in your secondary, and one of the two first ones in your primary.
Everything else, the player has a choice about. Don't like it, too bad. If I see someone skipping a power they may not understand (or even catch it by what they say,) I'll send a polite tell. "Hey, did you know X power does XYZ? Might help you. Throw it on your second build, see how it works for you/PM me, I'll show you on mine/etc." But kick? No. Only if somone's being completely incompetent, a leech, or build nazi ("You don't have this, you suck!") will any kicking (or leaving, if I'm not the leader) be done. |
My level 50 Dominators:
Madame Mindbender 50 Mind/Energy
Fly Agaric 50 Plant/Thorn
Nate Nitro 50 Fire/Psi
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I am not worried too much about them giving me a bonus. If they are plowing through mobs then great. However on a full team vs +3 mobs you will be facing alot more than just 6 mobs. Unless a brute already has aggro on those mobs you will faceplant in a hurry without some extra defense. |
Originally Posted by Bru_Tal
And what if that guy who doesnt have TT:M contributes in other ways? Say he can rip down a pack of 6 by himself with build up : venom grenade : frag grenade : heavy burst... ?
But since he isnt giving YOU a bonus, he isnt good? He isnt contributing (even though he IS), or at least not YOUR way, so again, he's no good? Wheres the logic there? That kinda sounds... stupid. Like ya said, cant fix stupid.... |
If you were helping the team and plowing through everything and staying alive then I would never even bother looking at your build. If I notice that you are dying frequently then I will take a look. If you could have taken powers 20 levels earlier that would prevent your constant death then you are either ignorant or stupid. If you are ignorant, then I will attempt to educate you on the value of added defense. If you have a 48month vet badge, bye bye. I am in customer service for an online company. I let my 13 year old son play around on the website and he has figured out how to do most anything that would need to be done on the website. I deal with the customers on the phone that are not smart enough to do the same. I get paid to put up with stupid. I am not going to spend my free time doing the same.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
What constitutes an "important skill" can be pretty subjective.
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Only to people who have no idea what they are talking about.
Have to disagree with you on that one. Some say oppressive gloom is great for /Dark scrappers. I had it and didn't like it and never missed it. On the same maps with the same mobs with the same sized spawns, my health bar went down faster with it on than with it off. Could be because I had a high defense build and normally would fight several mobs at once. Mobs were still not hitting me either way but I was taking damage from them being stunned as well.
Now there are some powers that just plain should not be skipped but you will never get a 100% agreement on what those powers are.
Ok, I understand the importance of having it, I myself have it, and for most reading this thread, in the SOA forums, I am sure we all know what it does and how it stacks. I am not denying that it helps. I am not saying that it shouold be skipped, but to kick someone from the team for NOT having it seems like an awful far stretch of what little power you have over others in the game.
I also think that we're starting to beat a dead horse here.
Some of you stick your guns about "they must have this" and give examples.
Others stick to thier guns about free choice and respecting the player to make good choices that they feel are good, not what you think should be good.
I dont think theres even a debate on the effectiveness of TT: M, just the attitude that one would be kicked for not having it.
So, the convincing can stop, I was convinced when I first researched VEATS. I understand its potential for solo and team play. I get it. I just dont get the attitude of powers over player... Gimp build on a great player shouldnt get him kicked. Great build on a poor player should...
It all goes back to the player, not the powers for me.
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How many powers can be considered "important" in a set?
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Quote:
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"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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Fair enough...but I would ask, why is this arbitrary equally skilled players such a stickler for you? All things being equal obviously I would rather have the team buffs than not, but youve structured the question in such a way to make the answer moot as well. Youre taking a nebulous idea and eschewing anything that does not make it black and white to make your point. In a vacuum I agree with you, but on principle I just cant make this all encompassing a statement
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
The difference is that this is a dumb, stacked example specifically fabricated to make your point seem like it make sense.
Don't worry, you're not the only one in the thread who keeps perpetrating this myth of the 'awesomely played' no maneuvers widow vs. the poorly played well built widow. |
Deus,
How do you feel about the control auras on a Dark Armor tank? Seeing as they provide protection to the team in the form of control/debuff and taunt and provide solid mitigation to the tank itself, at least one of the two should be essential, right?
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Some sets have more important powers than others, so it depends on the set.|
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
How many powers can be considered "important" in a set?
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I know you want to find some way to prove that considering TT: Maneuvers as important is subjective, but it simply isn't.
At some point a player has to accept that some powers are simply large and away better choices than others.
If you want to work out a widow build that does not take either Mind Link nor TT: Maneuvers and explain why you think it's a better build for not having those - I'll be happy to read it.
Be prepared to explain why adding to your own personal survival capabilities, and the survival capabilities of your team mates isn't important.
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Originally Posted by Frogfather
Fair enough...but I would ask, why is this arbitrary equally skilled players such a stickler for you?
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Otherwise, I'd be free to use an opposing assumption to yours stating that the player with the better build is most probably a better player overall as they have a better understand of game mechanics.
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Originally Posted by Frogfather
All things being equal obviously I would rather have the team buffs than not,
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Then you're a rational player.
You can try to help FireWyvern in developing a Widow build that is simply much better off, or has the capability to be played better due to the fact that it does not have Mind Link or TT: Maneuvers.
We're not even going to touch Crabs, I was going to make a statement about it, but I'll just use an excerpt from Lobster's Guide to Crabbing from the guides here in the SoA forum.
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Originally Posted by Lobster
1.10: Tactical Training: Maneuvers (TT:M)
In my opinion, this IS the defining power of the Crabs. The sheer awesomeness that 3 Crabs can bring to a team by capping everyones defenses is, well, awesome. It is a toggle defense VERSUS EVERYTHING power that applies to yourself and any teammate within 60ft (a much larger radius than the Force Field bubble toggle). Slotted, it is slightly stronger than an unslotted Super Reflexes toggle. If you've made it to 50 on a villain and don't realize how powerful that is, I suggest playing a defense based character to 50, then coming back to your Crab. It (and the other two TT powers) are VERY cheap to run. All 3 together cost less than the Mastermind version of Dispersion Bubble and just a little bit more than the defender version). So, by itself, for about 40% of the cost of Defender Dispersion Bubble, you can provide the SAME defense over 140% larger area. The larger area is a great boon in teams when your teammates are actually free to fan out a bit, and you don't have to stay right on top of them, or scramble around to try and keep everyone covered. True, it does NOT provide ANY mez protection for the team, but that's hardly a gripe. Simple summary: Slotted, it's like running all 3 SR toggles (unslotted) for your entire team. If you don't take this, don't expect to be welcomed on to teams. You should take this at level 10, every time, no excuses. |
After that you can step in.
It gets... interesting... when the IO'd defender/scrapper/controller/whatever goes off on his own through half the map. It's even better when the team breaks into three or four small groups rampaging throughout a map and reconvening at the AV. These are the things that IOs let us do.
IOs do not let us complete TFs. They let us complete them extraordinarily so.
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