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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Selfish: concerned chiefly or only with yourself and your advantage to the exclusion of others.
They are selfish in that they have chosen an AT that people invite to teams for their support aspects, and then they choose to not utilize those support aspects. Play your toon how you want, build how you want. Don't cry when you get kicked from teams because you thought it would be OK to ask 7 other people to pull your weight for you and they'd rather have some one who has a better team-mindset. Selfishness is when you choose what you want, what you think is fun, over the benefit of the group. |
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Originally Posted by Sam_Sneed
Thank you.
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My point was that if you take your definition of selfish and apply it to the posts you both made earlier in the thread you will see that the selfishness is flowing both ways. The difference is there most likely is no malice on their part.
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I'm sorry but that's just not correct.|
Originally Posted by Aluminum_Dave
My point was that if you take your definition of selfish and apply it to the posts you both made earlier in the thread you will see that the selfishness is flowing both ways. The difference is there most likely is no malice on their part.
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7 other people's desires outweigh the desires of 1. That's what a team is, that's cooperation.
1 person's desires being put forth at the expense of 7 others is selfishness.
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True enough, but my point was you don't need to be a team/build nazi to be able to play the game. You're getting picky to the point of what I feel is taking the fun out of it. Ok, that's what's fun for you, I get it. We have a difference of opinion, I hope you find friends that you can play with regularly on your max settings.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I'd like you go back, and re-read my posts in this thread and quote where I said any team was having trouble on a TF, SF, or any other group situation.
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I will take any seven people with me and we will do a task force. I don't care what builds they bring. We're going to kill stuff and have fun.
Please add @Dechs Kaison to your global ignore list, just so we don't run into each other by accident.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Asking someone who is playing a team oriented AT with several game changing team & self preservation focused abilities to simply make use of them is build Nazism?|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
True enough, but my point was you don't need to be a team/build nazi
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Out of 24 power choices, you think it's totally reasonable and in the name fun to be unable to find room for 2 that will make you more survivable as well as your team - and then expect teams who are most likely inviting you for those abilities to be OK with it?
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Yes.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Out of 24 power choices, you think it's totally reasonable and in the name fun to be unable to find room for 2 that will make you more survivable as well as your team - and then expect teams who are most likely inviting you for those abilities to be OK with it?
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Wait, we are playing a team oriented MMO that prides itself on character diversity and you don't see how excluding people who take advantage of that diversity (either willfully or ignorantly) from groups to satisfy your own idea of how the game should be played is selfish?|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I'm sorry but that's just not correct.
7 other people's desires outweigh the desires of 1. That's what a team is, that's cooperation. 1 person's desires being put forth at the expense of 7 others is selfishness. |
I'm a bit stunned.
I understand that as a team you are working together towards a common goal. The thing is that the goal can be achieved in so many different ways in this game that, with very, very few exceptions, no power or powerset is required for anything. Unless you (non-specific you) set your own selfish rules as to how the people on the team appear/play/build in order to enhance your own fun (i.e. kill speed, reward gathering, etc..).
There's no reason arguing with the unreasonable. I haven't been rude or disrespectful once, and yet just for stating my opinion my poster rating has went from 78 to -139 from this one thread. It's not that I care about my poster rating, I don't, but it shows the level of maturity in this thread. Time to jump ship. I wanted to vent and I did. I'll leave the endless bickering to the professionals. I already know the reality this topic.
Enjoy!
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I'm sorry, but I have to call this one out.|
Originally Posted by Sam_Sneed
There's no reason arguing with the unreasonable.
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You're saying that it's unreasonable to take just any seven players with you, regardless of their power choices, even though they can still accomplish a task and have fun along the way.
That's being unreasonable?
Yes, it is time you jumped ship. Yours is the attitude for the workplace. I'm playing a game.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Ah so you're from the "I will play what I want, when I want, how I want and I don't care how it affects anyone else" style of playing and character building?|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Yes.
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Originally Posted by Aluminum_Dave
I understand that as a team you are working together towards a common goal. The thing is that the goal can be achieved in so many different ways in this game that, with very, very few exceptions, no power or powerset is required for anything.
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I said that I don't want to team with people who are so selfish they refuse to take and use team focused buffs on a team focused AT, and still expect people to welcome them on teams when they are being invited most likely because that AT has those awesome Team buffs.
It really has nothing to do with diversity, or equality, or individuality or freedom or any other soap box issue.
It has to do with demonstrating you are a team player.
I don't care if your Widow took FU over BU or vice versa, I don't care if you took smoke grenades because you think they are useful and fun.
But there is no reason other than stubborn selfishness or complete ignorance to skip TT: Maneuvers and Mind Link on a Widow.
Ignorant players can be educated, stubbornly selfish players who are basically thumbing their nose at reason because it's apparently fun to suck, are hopeless cases.
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No, I'm from the "What right to I have to dictate how someone else spends their $15/month" style of playing.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Ah so you're from the "I will play what I want, when I want, how I want and I don't care how it affects anyone else" style of playing and character building?
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As you'll see from my tank video, I am a bit of a min/maxer.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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First: If I wanted no diversity or indivituality I would play HALO (more than I do)or some game where everyone has the same powers and looks. All those reasons you listed as "Soap Box" issues are a huge percentage of the reasons that we have so many players in this game. Different is good for many people.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I said that I don't want to team with people who are so selfish they refuse to take and use team focused buffs on a team focused AT, and still expect people to welcome them on teams when they are being invited most likely because that AT has those awesome Team buffs. It really has nothing to do with diversity, or equality, or individuality or freedom or any other soap box issue. It has to do with demonstrating you are a team player. I don't care if your Widow took FU over BU or vice versa, I don't care if you took smoke grenades because you think they are useful and fun. But there is no reason other than stubborn selfishness or complete ignorance to skip TT: Maneuvers and Mind Link on a Widow. Ignorant players can be educated, stubbornly selfish players who are basically thumbing their nose at reason because it's apparently fun to suck, are hopeless cases. |
Third: Why is your reason for taking it any better than their reason for not taking it? (this question should be applied to any power not just these two)
For my part I see no downside to taking either of these two powers and would on any widow I made. This is a personal standard though and I can't and won't try to hold other people to it. It doesn't affect anyone negatively if the powers are not taken. It just doesn't make them any better. You do not lose defense by not taking TT: Maneuvers, you just don't gain it. You are no worse off that before you had the teamate.
Your style and mine obviously differ drastically and that's fine. The world will not end because of it but I don't think either of us will change the others mind so the conversation will end.
Take care, play hard, and good BOB ALMIGHTY will you people just have fun!
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That's cool for you when you're by yourself if that's what you like to do. Personally, I have enough experience with CoX to have a general idea of what powers are available to a player. So when I invite that Cold Domination or Pain Domination Corruptor I expect some shields and heals respectively. |
Originally Posted by Aluminum_Dave
It doesn't affect anyone negatively if the powers are not taken. It just doesn't make them any better. You do not lose defense by not taking TT: Maneuvers, you just don't gain it. You are no worse off that before you had the teamate.
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That's where the real issue is here. It comes down to some people defending an individual's right to build as they see fit while others take up arms for a team's expectations. It's really a matter of personal freedom versus social responsibility and we all know that's gonna go on forever no matter what anyone says.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Whatever reason it is, my rule is: Almost any build, any budget, some exclusions.
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I think we've all run with the gamut of players. From fully IO'd super toons to newbies who didn't realize that picking up their mezz protection was more important than grabbing another self heal. What we choose to do with them is up to us; just like what powers they pick and how they play are up to them.
For example, if your AR/Traps Corr wants to stand shoulder to shoulder with my softcapped Night Widow (Just got her to that point today
) I'm not gonna call you a moron for it. I will explain that it's not a safe place for you to be and recommend an alternate strategy. If you, predictably, faceplant repeatedly I'll just leave you tasting the floor. However, if those enemies you just failed so epically against peel away from me and cut down the Dom who was holding the spawn I'll kick you before the fight's over. Once you become detrimental to other members of the team it's my responsibility as the leader of said team to remove you as quickly as possible. It's my right to do so and I won't entertain complaints about it.
Wanna play a Peacebringer? Don't believe the hype. Check out my guide and get the real truth:
PEACEBRINGERS SUCK!!! (Now fully up to date for i21+
)
Mosts groups I see just want to have fun and most of them don't need the entire team to be super sexah revved up speed poppin superheroes for a silly mish of +3s.
Edit: Oh one more thing, for a year I used to lead the teams and so people asked me if I was making one. This was nothing to do with my setups. it was simply because they prefered someone else to make the teams. When I make teams I won't leave it till I have done about 4 missions atleast otherwise I feel I am somewhat cheating people. I am not but I like leaders to hang about for more than 2 missions atleast.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
(QR to OP)
+3/x8 paper missions is soloing material for many level 30 builds, using insps and tactics. One good player + seven random guys with random builds is always enough to steamroll these kind of missions. If it's not, maybe that one good player isn't as good as he think he is.
If your team wipes on paper missions, even +4/x8, as soon as you don't have 2 VEATs babysitting you on top of 2 corrs buffing/debuffing, 2 doms mezzing, and 2 brutes taking aggro, well... A team that falls down as soon as a specific buff isn't there, or in other words a team that relies on a crutch and can't do without it is nothing but a gimped team. Using the weakest link as a scapegoat is all well and fine, but with that attitude it's unlikely you'll improve fast if at all and you'll have to rely forever on whatever crutch you're using - the whole "2 doms 2 corrs 2 brutes 2 VEATs" thing rather than just picking whatever is a fine example of that.
I don't condone skipping TT:M and Mind Link. However, you should stop a second and ask yourself this : what is more likely, you improving your playstyle and builds to the point where you can pick up the slack if other players aren't up to your standards, or all those "bad" players to become good overnight ?
You can stay like you are and play just fine using your rules and have fun, but, using your words, you had to vent, so at some level the current situation has to annoy you. Why not fix it ?
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If he's not shoulder to shoulder with you, he won't get TT:M. =P|
Originally Posted by Timeshadow
That's my policy. I think we've all run with the gamut of players. From fully IO'd super toons to newbies who didn't realize that picking up their mezz protection was more important than grabbing another self heal. What we choose to do with them is up to us; just like what powers they pick and how they play are up to them. For example, if your AR/Traps Corr wants to stand shoulder to shoulder with my softcapped Night Widow (Just got her to that point today ) I'm not gonna call you a moron for it. I will explain that it's not a safe place for you to be and recommend an alternate strategy. If you, predictably, faceplant repeatedly I'll just leave you tasting the floor. However, if those enemies you just failed so epically against peel away from me and cut down the Dom who was holding the spawn I'll kick you before the fight's over. Once you become detrimental to other members of the team it's my responsibility as the leader of said team to remove you as quickly as possible. It's my right to do so and I won't entertain complaints about it. |
For that exemple, yes i wouldn't have problem with you kicking him. (as long as you warned him first) Because it's not just a power he skipped or a different playstyle. He's actually causing problems and actively making it harder on some teamates (the dom).
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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This is the nice way to say it.
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Originally Posted by DrMike2000
I agree that its dissappointing when a VEAT rocks up and doesn't have the defense buffs, but I think your standards are a bit high for PUG-ing.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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My policy is simply "Play your best and don't get other people killed". Beyond that, it's up to you how to best play your character. If you consistently do stupid things that gets the rest of the team killed (aggroing multiple spawns, sending pets running all willy-nilly, splitting up the team because people are trying to save your sorry butt), then you'll be booted. Nine times out of ten, that's a problem with player behavior rather than character build.
If you're able to contribute and not be a detriment whatever your build is, I'm cool with you.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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I love to PUG SFs.
I love being the only one standing after a team wipes for whatever reason.
I also love having a great PUG that cruises through in near record time.
Come to think of it, I really enjoy playing the game.
To be fair, Sam Sneed, you should provide some sort of warning to people who might want in on your teams.
Also, there may some "elite" channels on your server where the entire population knows their business.
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I was done after your first paragraph. As many others already mentioned a team of any type of ATs can complete any of the content as long as they are awake behind the keyboard. I agree with those that say why help educate rather than just be an ****** and kick. |
Originally Posted by Sam_Sneed
I'll probably get negative feedback for this but I need to rant a little.
Every night for the past two weeks I have formed 8 man teams to run paper missions. First in St. Maarten and then in Grandville. I like to form teams with 2 brutes, 2 corruptors, 2 dominators, and 2 VEATs. I'm not claiming that is the best way to teamor anything, it's just how I role. [...] I'm done. |
I always enjoy thinking of new tactics to compliment the team I do have rather than being a AT nazi.
Selfish/team-focussed debate aside, I think any Bane Soldier who doesn't take TT:Manouvers for purely selfish reasons hasn't understood the power.
16% Defence slotted to absolutely everything (including Psi and all the other usual holes)? 1 in 3 of all attacks bounce off for 1 power is pretty awesome.
Adding on the top of 12% Ranged slotted def from CT: Defensive? Sold!
You'd be mad not to take it, even if you didn't give a toss about your teammates or intended to solo exclusively.
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Originally Posted by FireWyvern
If he's not shoulder to shoulder with you, he won't get TT:M. =P
For that exemple, yes i wouldn't have problem with you kicking him. (as long as you warned him first) Because it's not just a power he skipped or a different playstyle. He's actually causing problems and actively making it harder on some teamates (the dom). |
Naw, they don't play up front for TTM, it has plenty of range, a trapper plays up front because that is where they should be.
Dirges
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I don't dictate how people should play, solo or on other people's teams.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
No, I'm from the "What right to I have to dictate how someone else spends their $15/month" style of playing.
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Originally Posted by Aluminum_Dave
First: If I wanted no diversity or indivituality I would play HALO (more than I do)or some game where everyone has the same powers and looks. All those reasons you listed as "Soap Box" issues are a huge percentage of the reasons that we have so many players in this game. Different is good for many people.
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Not taking a power that provides gigantic leap in survivability for yourself as well as your team, doesn't have anything to do with diversity.
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Originally Posted by Aluminum_Dave
It doesn't affect anyone negatively if the powers are not taken. It just doesn't make them any better. You do not lose defense by not taking TT: Maneuvers, you just don't gain it. You are no worse off that before you had the teamate.
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Let me know how many "bubble-less" Force Field defenders you'd like to have on your team, and explain why you'd be better off with that player as opposed to someone who has a proper build.
Please refrain from talking about player skill, as this assumes even skill, and in a case of even skill the player with the better build provides more to the team.
But you and everyone else arguing on your side will probably be happy to invite that Scrapper that decided not to take any of his defensive or mez toggles due to some unfathomable "concept" that requires them to be awful.
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I'd like you go back, and re-read my posts in this thread and quote where I claimed that you dictate how people should play solo or on other teams.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I don't dictate how people should play, solo or on other people's teams.
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I merely refuted your classification of me.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Let me know how many "bubble-less" Force Field defenders you'd like to have on your team, and explain why you'd be better off with that player as opposed to someone who has a proper build.
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I'd be better off with them because we'd still have fun. I could not have fun if they were all people who felt they had the right to mandate how other builds should be made.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
But you and everyone else arguing on your side will probably be happy to invite that Scrapper that decided not to take any of his defensive or mez toggles due to some unfathomable "concept" that requires them to be awful.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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^ This basically. For my Fort it's nice if the fellow VEAT has them but I'm still close to the cap without their help anyway. I'll still open with Psi Tornado, giggling to myself as I do so.|
Originally Posted by DrMike2000
Do you have a search comment saying that people had better have the right powers or they'll be kicked?
 I agree that its dissappointing when a VEAT rocks up and doesn't have the defense buffs, but I think your standards are a bit high for PUG-ing. |
Looking at the OP I'd say your standards are too high, not for thinking VEATs should have to have their Defensive Toggles but for this :
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like to form teams with 2 brutes, 2 corruptors, 2 dominators, and 2 VEATs.* * |
Recently I've played on PuGs with toggleless VEATs, a petless MM, a team with 5 Stalkers (that was fun), a team of 7 MMs, mostly demons (that gave me nightmares that night, mostly because of all the snarling) and teams of 4+ VEATs (aka God Mode). All were good fun in their own way.
Like I said its Paper missions. They're not difficult, regardless of team make-up
My point, is that you can't have it both ways.
You can't be a beautiful, unique snow flake, with a nonsensical build that avoids all of the really useful stuff for your team and then pretend that your individuality is somehow in anyway co-operative.
It's the very height of selfishness.
If someone's "fun" VEAT build concept is so unbelievably important to them that they can't find room for TT: Maneuvers and Mindlink to help themselves and their team, then they are unfortunately totally hopeless.