So what is the deal?

Quite honestly, I empathise with the kicked, inefficient people.

Since the OP has a very clear idea of what he wants on the team, I'm gonna assume he sends tells to people with the right AT rather than just relying on broadcasts.

So here's how I imagine it goes. So the OP sends a tell to a VEAT, asking him to join his team. The VEAT was probably already doing something. Maybe he was looking at the market, maybe he was just soloing. Maybe he was tweaking the MArc he was working on.

But he got a tell asking him to join a team. He thinks "hey, teaming's fun, I should better take this opportunity!" and he drops whatever he was doing. So he accepts the invitation and heads to the OP's zone. Or worse, he was currently half-way through a mission, but he left so he can get invited.

And then he's kicked from the team. Is this a joke or something? Is the leader just some troll who gets a kick out of inviting people just to kick them? He's about to send the leader an angry tell, but before he can finish he gets a tell himself, 'politely' explaining that his build isn't what he was looking for, and that he'd be much better if he took his Tactical Training toggles. Sure, the leader had the best of intentions when he gave that advice, but at this point it's just adding insult to injury. "He asked me to join his team only to tell me I'm not good enough for his team?"

The VEAT dropped whatever he was doing only to be told to go away. At this point I can hardly blame these people for sending the OP angry tells.

'course, that's assuming that this is the OP's modus operandi. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. But since this appears to be a pretty common occurence for the OP, I'm gonna assume that he's being vague about what he expects from people.

Now, before you get the wrong impression, the OP is free to form whatever team he likes. I'm not refuting that. But if he wants VEATs with the TT toggles but keeps running into VEATs without, the obvious solution is to send them a tell asking if they have those toggles. If they yes, great, invite them to the team. If they say no, keep looking. That way, there's not gonna be hard feelings.

See, kicks are like break-ups. There are no nice break-ups and there are no nice kicks. You cannot break up with someone without hurting their feelings, and you cannot kick someone and expect them to be jovial about it. He obviously ran into a lot of VEATs without TT, but instead of learning from this and asking them if they have the powers beforehand, he continues to invite them, and then kick them if they don't, which will always lead to hurt feelings.

For what its worth...

On the 3 or 4 servers I've played on (from very low populations to high) I dont think I've ever seen someone kicked unless it was for unknown AFK, total immaturity, or just blatent team wiping antics...

In all seriousness folks, is this not just a moot point?

Are we not talking about the very minority of PUG's here?

I mean, if we want to mull over the little things and not whats really happening in the majority, I guess we can hear ourselves argue all month long.

So, I guess what I am trying to say is, if you just want to get on your soapbox and hear yourself complain, cool, have it your way. But if you take a step back and look at your experience, I would imagine its a far different one than whats being descibed here by a very small, select, vocal, opinionated few.

But by all means, shout at the wind all you'd like.
I think that was the OP's intent anyway.

Going to have to say I agree with Timeshadow and the original poster on this one, even if not on all of the individual points they make.

It is not about setting a bar and requiring that people have builds that are *this* efficient to join my teams: it is about ensuring that the team is fun, productive and running smoothly.

If you want to play a build that, for whatever reasons, does not take powers that are widely considered to be "essential" to the set, that's your business. When you want to play that build on a team, that becomes everyone on the team's business. A team is as strong as its weakest member. Expecting others to pull your weight for you so that you can have fun is selfish no matter how you spin it, and your "right" to have fun stops the moment you start using it to impose on other people.

Calling this attitude a form of elitism is missing the point entirely. It's not about excluding people that don't have "optimal" builds... it's about ensuring that everyone on the team has the opportunity to have fun and contribute without feeling like they're doing other peoples' work for them.

My two cents.

I agree that challenge is what makes the game interesting.

However, there is a difference between content being challenging and pointlessly annoying or frustrating. Using the same taskforce example from above, we were having a lot of fun... until it got to the point that everyone's job became cleaning up after that one problem individual. Suddenly, it wasn't fun for most of the people in that 8 man group. There were several complaints. People were clearly unhappy.

What one person finds fun may be frustrating for seven other people. That one person may pay their $15 a month and feel entitled to play the game any way they want to, but that does not mean they are entitled to do so at the expense of others.

I agree Kenji, but your example is about aplayers conduct. Not their power selection, as is the orignal issue here. Lets say a purple'd out Min/maxer is doing what you desrcibed, he still gets the boot.

I whole heartedly agree with you.

But booting because they dont have a power that you feel they shoudl from their set...
Bah.

Why doesnt superman just cut everyone in half with his heat vision Every Single Time. That woudl shut them up quicker than trying to reason, stand there and got shot, succumb to thier ultimate weapon that drains you of your power, when instead, he could have just cut the whole room in half, very quickly, making everyone job easier.

Sure, clean up would be horrid, but its easy.

I mean, bad playstyle, yeah, I get that.
Not having the power YOU think I should have...
Seriously?

Thats just like you said:
"What one person finds fun may be frustrating for seven other people. That one person may pay their $15 a month and feel entitled to play the game any way they want to, but that does not mean they are entitled to do so at the expense of others."

... now your $15 a month is interfering with my $15 dollars a month.
No?

I understand where you're coming from and agree that you should be able to decide how you want to play the game, but power choice preference and team performance are not always mutually exclusive. That is why I qualified my statement by providing a clear-cut example:

The problem is, in my limited experience with teaming, "what we're looking for" is a delusion on the part of the one with the star. I have been on teams of solid single ATs. Including a team of all stalkers. They seem to do just fine. Yes, buffing and healing and extra defense are useful, if they're available. But they *aren't needed.* Outside "Master Of" Task Force attempts, there really isn't much in this game that can't be overcome by throwing enough damage at it.

Yes, it *is* possible to build a nearly useless character. I've even teamed with a couple - the most common I've seen are Masterminds who take almost nothing from either set in favor of Pool powers. ("So... Hasten and Tough and Weave and Stamina and the entire Leadership pool... you can summon pets, right?") And "support" type characters who are so busy taking support powers that they can't actually hit anything. "Great. So, we've got 60% defense and 120% resistance to everything. I don't suppose anyone can actually *attack* the enemy?" Funny thing though, all the useless characters I've met have been "team" builds that centered on the idea that someone else would be doing all the damage. But I guess they were pulling their own weight, right?

I have a few points I'd like to make that aren't really addressed to any posters in particular. More of a comprehensive explanation of where I'm coming from.


1. This is not a competitive game. Your team only needs to be good enough to complete the task. You aren't playing against another team of players, where power decisions could become crucial to success. There isn't another team that could finish before you and steal your reward. Your team only needs to be better than Imperious, or Lord Recluse, or whatever, and that doesn't take much. One widow on a team without maneuvers isn't going to be the reason Dra'Gon stomps you.

2. This is just a game. We're here to have fun. Min/maxers like myself have fun by turning the game into a number crunching one where we pull the most potential out of our characters. Not everyone has fun this way. Some people look at available powers and say "That looks cool" or "I want to be able to fly and run fast" or "That power doesn't benefit me, why should I take it" or anything else that results in a sub-optimal build. Some people are daunted by the market and for whatever reason will not touch IOs at all. They cannot pull off the same builds that we can. Choices like this are not going to cripple the team. These people are entitled to their fun the way they want to have it.

3. People can learn. Let's say a player with a sub-optimal build joins a team. Let me propose two scenarios. In one, the player is immediately kicked and told that it was because he didn't build the way the leader liked, which would result in sub-optimal performance. In the second, the player is allowed to stay with the team and sees how the other players perform, and is told that IOs and proper power choices allow this kind of performance.

One of these scenarios is likely to encourage that player to build better and to explore IOs. One of these scenarios will leave the player with a bad taste, a negative connotation of min/maxers, a feeling of exclusion and, in the most extreme, perhaps even lead to a player quitting the game.

4. A Rule Without Exception. The reason I am so adamant about my rule of "Any build, any budget, no exclusions" is because I want this rule to last. As soon as I compromise this rule, even just once, even for the most dire of builds, I have lost it. Every exception makes the next one easier to make, and it's not a road I'm willing to go down. I have not once regretted sticking to this rule. I have not once failed to complete a TF with a full team.

Maybe this only works because I can usually prevent teamwipe scenarios, being that I am a tank IO'd to hell and back. The most difficult challenges become a matter of when we win, never if.