Do you have a search comment saying that people had better have the right powers or they'll be kicked? 
I agree that its dissappointing when a VEAT rocks up and doesn't have the defense buffs, but I think your standards are a bit high for PUG-ing.
Most essential powers is extremely subjective. If you expect people to put in there search comments everything they skipped, i hope you're doing the same.
If you want people to warn you they skipped something, then you better be warning people that you might kick them if there builds is not to your liking. Something like:
"team LFM, around lvl X, will kick sub-optimal builds"
I don't do build-nazism. I'll always let someone show me how he plays before judging if i want to team with him or not. And that will never be influenced by "what buffs i'm not getting" from him.
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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I don't do this. |
Originally Posted by Sam_Sneed
Every night for the past two weeks I have formed 8 man teams to run paper missions. First in St. Martial and then in Grandville. I like to form teams with 2 brutes, 2 corruptors, 2 dominators, and 2 VEATs. I'm not claiming that is the best way to teamor anything, it's just how I role.
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This game is not that hard. I get 7 other players and about 95% of the time you'll just roll through anything assuming they pay attention. The ones that afk too much, can't follow the simplest of instructions ("kill that") get kicked and new ones recruited in their place.
I don't care in the slightest of what your powers are. I don't care in the slightest that you have an optimal build or you don't. If I see you trying then, you stay on. You'll get kicked only if you don't make even a modicum of effort or unless you're total putz. Putzes are rare...I think I may have kicked less than 10 players in close to 6 years of play.
This comes up pretty regularly whenever a new wave of players get access to EATs. They're not familiar with what powers are essential and which ones can be skipped without doing detriment/upsetting anyone. It's part of the reason I was opposed to such a drastic lowering of the level requirement (Though we saw the same thing in I12 when VEATs were first released).
Only thing you can do is try to educate them. And keep in mind it's not just VEAT players. I ran into a level 50 Dark Armor Brute the other night who only had Dark Embrace (The first shield) for protection, both Oppressive Gloom AND Cloak of Fear, Aid Self, and two travel power pools (Leaping and Speed. He even took Whirlwind). Not everyone bothers to really learn much about the games they play. They just wanna smash stuff.
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I guess I've been playing for so long I take some things for granted and consider some things common sense when they might not be.
All I know is past lvl 35 my teams roll thru +3s at lightning speed. If your a liability cause you skip your best powers, I gotta let you go for the sake of the team. Otherwise we start having team wipes and the team falls apart and nobody is happy. Call me a Nazi or whatever, but atleast my teams are fast, furious, and fun! Every night I log on, I start getting tells asking me if I have a team going yet? If I was such a jerk and my teams didn't rock...that wouldn't happen. I guess I'll just keep my standards high and that means some folks will name call.
BTW FireWyvern, a passive power that gives you and your entire team about 6% defense to everything when fully slotted, with no endurance cost IS an essential power. It's really not subjective. If you skip it you are gimping your self and your teammates.
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Make sure you let these people know how awesome they COULD be. Let them know that what they can do now with a jacked up build, could be amplified "x" amount if they even put in half an effort. Then let them know how great the team could be, and how much easier the game could be for them. Start out with questions like, "do you know this power gives you/us all this amount of protection?" If you don't want to do that, then at least say, "Sorry, I thought you had mind link. We really need that." and kick them. That's like a tank that doesn't know you want them to go first if you have a team of blasters. Sometimes people just have to be told and they will try to fix things, if they don't know. Sometimes, they did it on purpose and you can say, "Man, you are gonna miss out on some rocking teams if you don't have pets or "x" power. |
Originally Posted by Sam_Sneed
I guess I've been playing for so long I take some things for granted and consider some things common sense when they might not be....
...BTW FireWyvern, a passive power that gives you and your entire team about 6% defense to everything when fully slotted, with no endurance cost IS an essential power. It's really not subjective. If you skip it you are gimping your self and your teammates. |
I'm pretty experienced and I still didn't think of the benefit of tough on my willpower tank until I got to higher levels. That little resistance goes a long way when you have hitpoints flowing in to back it up. Little things like that people don't consider. They may look at it and think that 6% is not a lot of defense for a toggle. But 6% on top of 20-30 is a ton. They may have endurance issues because they just want to max out damage or have 3 accuracies in something. Give them just half a chance so you can help make them better so, someone else does not get stuck with them and PuGs in general will slowly get better.
Of course this is all my opinion, and if your team works without them, it's your right as leader to do as you may.
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No it's really not subjective.|
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
Most essential powers is extremely subjective. If you expect people to put in there search comments everything they skipped, i hope you're doing the same.
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The tactical training powers available to VEATs form the core of what those classes can provide to the team as well as providing their own personal survival, increased damage and ability to hit.
If you've skipped those powers on a VEAT, you either have no idea about game mechanics or have willingly chosen to not provide yourself or your team with a MASSIVE survivability and performance increase.
I understand fully Sam, BUT veats are new to many so it's going to be commonplace for players to not realize how awesome certain powers are. Also no matter how mean one can be if you are willing to lead a team, people will ask for you. I'm not trying to poke fun at yah, I'm just saying it's rare that a person would step forward to lead a team...so expect people to want to team even if you are Hitler himself lol.
Also like others have stated let them know as well...I know it sounds silly but even I didn't know about Howling Twilight until someone had to pull me to the side lol.
I will also pretend I didn't see the comment about Kin and SB lol. :P
Wow, what is this, city of stuckups?
Listen all you dismayed viewers of this thread.
I will run a group, (excluding OP and that one other guy), with you, no matter how bad you suck. If you suck exceedingly bad, and are just trying to have fun, Ill put the SRSLY at whatever level is necessary for us to have a good time. If you die a lot, Ill be sure to bring wakies for you, since your own inventory is probably full of greens or who knows what. If you do paltry damage, Ill bring the smash. If you lack the +def yo, Ill bring my own SoA and rock leadership enough for at least a small army (assumably armed with at least sticks... 
).
I think this must have must have is beyond stupid. Took forcebolt? Please use it! It's fun and I dont mind chasing down your targets. Took whirlwind? Lemme get something with range enough to hit everything.
You heard it here first. Hew leads and Hew could care less what you rock.
-------
Hew in drag baby
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Obviously I'm not FireWyvern, but this stood out to me. You are complaining about widows, but I'm not sure you know what power you are talking about. I can only assume by the "you and your entire team" part and the amount of defense you mentioned, you are talking about Tactical Training: Maneuvers. Unfortunately, it *does* have an endurance cost. That doesn't mean I'm suggesting that everyone skip it, but it's not passive, it's a toggle, and it does have a cost, though that cost is lower than the pool power version. It cost 0.21 end/sec, and when fully slotted gives closer to 8% defense to everyone. A standard end redux will lower the price to 0.15 end/sec, which is pretty decent as far as defensive toggles go.|
Originally Posted by Sam_Sneed
BTW FireWyvern, a passive power that gives you and your entire team about 6% defense to everything when fully slotted, with no endurance cost IS an essential power. It's really not subjective. If you skip it you are gimping your self and your teammates.
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However, a player who is new to VEATs won't know that. They may not take the time to compare the info with the pool version, so they may be assuming it has closer to twice that cost. (Pool power has base 0.39 cost, single end redux puts that at 0.28, which is somewhat hefty. Pool version also only gets up to 5.5% defense for widows, same as defenders but still low). So if they don't know the set like you expect them to, and don't take the time to look up the info, they may be assuming it's a direct port and not worth the cost. As for Mind Link, the game info says it's recharge can't be reduced. Most forum goers and experienced players know that it can be via global recharge and multi-aspect IOs, but if they haven't bothered to look at the difference between normal Maneuvers and VEAT Maneuvers, it stands to reason that they wouldn't know about ML either, and would think it's not that good a power, or at least situational.
Not everyone knows as much about the game as you do. And while vet badges is generally a good measure of experience, it doesn't always mean they know what's generally considered good or not. My best friend, the guy who got me playing this game in the first place, has been in since beta and has 1 level 50 character. He often asks me for advice about powers/slotting and such. For him, perfecting builds isn't important. His one 50 is a Stone tank that (last I knew) had Rooted, EE, Stone Skin, Mud Pots, and Granite. No Rock Armor, no Crystal Armor, no Minerals. He didn't take them because the look of them didn't mesh with the character's concept. He could still tank just fine, but not against higher challenge levels. The important part is he enjoyed the character enough to grind it to 50, despite having a sub-optimal build.
Rather than /kick indiscriminately, why don't you take the opportunity to give them advice? Maybe they don't know that TT:M is almost twice as good as the pool version. Maybe they don't know just how good ML can be, for rather low prices, especially when combined with TT:M. If they refuse to listen, then kick them, but even then I'd only do so if they were actually hurting the team, as opposed to being less helpful than you expect. Being snobby doesn't help anyone.
Oi, I feel bad now..I should of known this thread was going to come to this :<
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Wait... since when they changed TT:Maneuvers to be an auto power? Last i checked, it's still a toggle and it cost 0,21end/s. =P|
Originally Posted by Sam_Sneed
I guess I've been playing for so long I take some things for granted and consider some things common sense when they might not be.
All I know is past lvl 35 my teams roll thru +3s at lightning speed. If your a liability cause you skip your best powers, I gotta let you go for the sake of the team. Otherwise we start having team wipes and the team falls apart and nobody is happy. Call me a Nazi or whatever, but atleast my teams are fast, furious, and fun! Every night I log on, I start getting tells asking me if I have a team going yet? If I was such a jerk and my teams didn't rock...that wouldn't happen. I guess I'll just keep my standards high and that means some folks will name call. BTW FireWyvern, a passive power that gives you and your entire team about 6% defense to everything when fully slotted, with no endurance cost IS an essential power. It's really not subjective. If you skip it you are gimping your self and your teammates. |
No matter how much of a jerk someone can be, a lot of people won't mind putting up with it, if it's not directed against them.
If you have team wipes because one person skipped a few powers, i'd say there's a problem with your team. On the teams i am, 2-3 people can go afk when it's a full team and we'll still be rolling. A little slower sure, but at a very decent speed.
The problem with assuming what the "core powers" are and what should never be skipped is that not everyone think the same. A good number of people don't care if the emp do nothing be rocking the aura. That's clearly a liability for me. Some people are okay with a corr being a buffbot, but i'm expecting to see damage, that's his primary after all. Some people are okay with a tanker that just survives and have only his tier1 attack. That's clearly a liability for me, since a brute can survive while doing insane damage. I've also seen a stalker without AS and placate (before the stalker buffs even) that was better then all the other player in the team. And they were all decent players that had good experience. Not crazy min-maxer, but they were good enough to do SFs and the like.
For exemple, you mentionned Kin and SB. For me, FS and the heal are more then enough. Most of my character tries to be end sufficient without insps, so with a few insps once in a while, i'm good. And the recharge won't change much to my attack chain. Sure i might be able to get 5-10 DPS more.... but FS gives a lot better then that.
P.S. My VEAT took TT:M. =P But i've seen all kind of "core" powers skipped for good reasons, some by me. That rarely stopped the character from being very usefull if the player was knowledgeable.
edit: And i support what OneFrigidWitch said! I won't change character, but i'll do my best with the one i feel like playing and i don't mind sub-optimal builds or players, if they are trying.
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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Don't get me wrong, I do all those things. I explain to them in PMs that they are skipping powers that severely limit thier effectivness and contribution to the team, and if I kick them I explain nicely why I have to. It doesn't matter in most cases. They get offended and resort to name calling like many folks on this forum.
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Originally Posted by Live_Wyre
Make sure you let these people know how awesome they COULD be. Let them know that what they can do now with a jacked up build, could be amplified "x" amount if they even put in half an effort. Then let them know how great the team could be, and how much easier the game could be for them. Start out with questions like, "do you know this power gives you/us all this amount of protection?" If you don't want to do that, then at least say, "Sorry, I thought you had mind link. We really need that." and kick them. That's like a tank that doesn't know you want them to go first if you have a team of blasters. Sometimes people just have to be told and they will try to fix things, if they don't know. Sometimes, they did it on purpose and you can say, "Man, you are gonna miss out on some rocking teams if you don't have pets or "x" power.
I'm pretty experienced and I still didn't think of the benefit of tough on my willpower tank until I got to higher levels. That little resistance goes a long way when you have hitpoints flowing in to back it up. Little things like that people don't consider. They may look at it and think that 6% is not a lot of defense for a toggle. But 6% on top of 20-30 is a ton. They may have endurance issues because they just want to max out damage or have 3 accuracies in something. Give them just half a chance so you can help make them better so, someone else does not get stuck with them and PuGs in general will slowly get better. Of course this is all my opinion, and if your team works without them, it's your right as leader to do as you may. |
Oh and I stand corrected. Tactival Training does cost a small amount of endurance and is not a passive power. I just came back from a year break and had a lapse in memory. That's my bad. Doesn't change anything, just wanted to clear that up.
It's funny I'm getting negative feedback and being called a snob by people acting very snobish. The game was designed a certain way, and there are certain powers in each set that are not suppose to be skipped. If you want to skip them, there is nothing wrong with that, but it is what it is. Don't come down on me for not wanting you on my team.
I have a petless mastermind that I play for fun. It is a gimp build, I know it and I like it. I solo with it and play with friends, but I never use it on Pug teams because I think it's rude to do so. When I get invites I quickly explain I am a petelss MM. I think it is proper team edicate.
If you don't agree with me that's fine, but please drop all the high and mighty better than thou garbage. Don't hate on me for calling a pig a pig.
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Sadly, the label may be appropriate. Players can pick and choose any powers they wish. They are not there to please you, they are playing to please themselves. |
Originally Posted by Sam_Sneed
When I invite a Kin, I expect SB. When I invite a Mastermind, I expect pets. When I invite a VEAT, I expect team defense buffs. If your going to make some jacked up build, you have every right to, but atleast put it in your search comments that you have skipped your most essential powers. I'm tired of being labeled the jerk because I kick these people from my team, but unless you have a good team with all good players, a Widow with no defense buffs is a liability.
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And kicking them without even trying first?
To be blunt, this game is easily fun enough as it is (too many people play x4, x5, x6, x7, or x8 solo at all level ranges enough to prove that). It is just silly to be worried about what crutches team mates bring to you.
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Originally Posted by Negate
I will also pretend I didn't see the comment about Kin and SB lol. :P
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
No it's really not subjective.
The tactical training powers available to VEATs form the core of what those classes can provide to the team as well as providing their own personal survival, increased damage and ability to hit. If you've skipped those powers on a VEAT, you either have no idea about game mechanics or have willingly chosen to not provide yourself or your team with a MASSIVE survivability and performance increase. |
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Originally Posted by Sam_Sneed
Don't get me wrong, I do all those things. I explain to them in PMs that they are skipping powers that severely limit thier effectivness and contribution to the team, and if I kick them I explain nicely why I have to. It doesn't matter in most cases. They get offended and resort to name calling like many folks on this forum.
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City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
If you don't think it's fun to play with the difficulty set at x8 or +4, that is fine and I can understand that. However, if you join a team with a build that you have willingly gimped and see we are fighting +3s and +4s....is it not common sense to show yourslef the door? Occaisionally I join a high level team to early and with DOs slotted I can't hit anyhting. When this happens I leave and find a new team because I know I'm gimping the team. I don't see a difference other than I am unwillingly stuck with DOs cause my level, and these Widows are willingly gimping themsleves. Either way it seems like common courtesy to leave if your hurting the team.
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Originally Posted by Chyll
Yep, don't understand or willingly. There may be an opportunity to educate a new VEAT player, or not. In either case, it shouldn't matter.
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If they have willingly and purposefully not taken those powers for whatever reasons, they have no place on my team.
Because I want team-minded, co-operative players on my team. Not selfish people who think it's OK to eschew team benefit for their own personal whims and expect others to pull extra weight for their poorly designed character.
Because that's what it boils down to.
If you're planning to team, plan your character's build accordingly.
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If you're playing a game, expect people to have fun. If they don't chose powers for whatever reason, it's probably to make the game more fun. I don't question fun.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
If you're planning to team, plan your character's build accordingly.
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Maybe this is because I only run TFs, and only on +0. Maybe it's because I mostly play characters that are self sufficient against 8 man spawns. Maybe it's because any group of 8 characters with half a brain between them can accomplish virtually any task in this game. Maybe it's because I respect other people's desire to have fun.
Whatever reason it is, my rule is: Any build, any budget, no exclusions.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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You have every right not to team with any person you don't want to but laying all the blame on them for it is just flat out wrong.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
If they have willingly and purposefully not taken those powers for whatever reasons, they have no place on my team.
Because I want team-minded, co-operative players on my team. Not selfish people who think it's OK to eschew team benefit for their own personal whims and expect others to pull extra weight for their poorly designed character. Because that's what it boils down to. If you're planning to team, plan your character's build accordingly. |
YOU want them to build a toon YOUR way and play the toon how YOU want it and THEY are selfish?!
A person can be team-minded, co-operative, a help to the team, and escape the cookie cutter all at the same time. That is the beauty of almost all of the powerset combos we have. You don't have to be just like the guy next to you.
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Originally Posted by Aluminum_Dave
YOU want them to build a toon YOUR way and play the toon how YOU want it and THEY are selfish?!
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That's almost signature worthy.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
Quote:
Selfish: concerned chiefly or only with yourself and your advantage to the exclusion of others.|
Originally Posted by Aluminum_Dave
YOU want them to build a toon YOUR way and play the toon how YOU want it and THEY are selfish?!
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They are selfish in that they have chosen an AT that people invite to teams for their support aspects, and then they choose to not utilize those support aspects.
Play your toon how you want, build how you want.
Don't cry when you get kicked from teams because you thought it would be OK to ask 7 other people to pull your weight for you and they'd rather have some one who has a better team-mindset.
Selfishness is when you choose what you want, what you think is fun, over the benefit of the group.
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Thank you.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Selfish: concerned chiefly or only with yourself and your advantage to the exclusion of others.
They are selfish in that they have chosen an AT that people invite to teams for their support aspects, and then they choose to not utilize those support aspects. Play your toon how you want, build how you want. Don't cry when you get kicked from teams because you thought it would be OK to ask 7 other people to pull your weight for you and they'd rather have some one who has a better team-mindset. Selfishness is when you choose what you want, what you think is fun, over the benefit of the group. |
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If the group is having trouble with a task/strike force set for +0, then there are larger problems with the group than the player who skipped whatever power you deem necessary.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Selfishness is when you choose what you want, what you think is fun, over the benefit of the group.
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If you want to only run +4/x8 with no trouble, kick what you deem to be sub-par builds, and advertise as such, I have no problems with that. You play your way, I'll play mine.
I'll steamroll ITFs and LGTFs and Renault SFs and Sara Moore TFs with my friends, the AR/Ice/pyre blaster throwing bonfire on every spawn, the widow without teambuffs, the /kin without SB, the /EA scrapperlocking stalker, the PB who slotted for knockback, and even the petless MM. And we will have a blast.
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Originally Posted by spineless, ignorant neg rep
Your post.. god i seriously hope i will never see you in my teams, as even if exaggerating.. your builds obviously suck goat testicles so no wonder you can only play with your friends. >.<
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I'll probably get negative feedback for this but I need to rant a little.
Every night for the past two weeks I have formed 8 man teams to run paper missions. First in St. Martial and then in Grandville. I like to form teams with 2 brutes, 2 corruptors, 2 dominators, and 2 VEATs. I'm not claiming that is the best way to teamor anything, it's just how I role.
When forming a pug team, you don't always get the most talented players. Having two or even three VEATs on the team gives you a cushion since the defensive buffs five the entire team such good defense to all.
So over the last two weeks, I'd say roughly 90% of the Widows I have invited have not had Tactical Maneuvers or Mind Link. WTH? Is this a new fad or something. I just don't get it. It's not like it only buffs your team. As a widow those two powers provide you with most of your defense also. I just don't get it.
When I invite a Kin, I expect SB. When I invite a Mastermind, I expect pets. When I invite a VEAT, I expect team defense buffs. If your going to make some jacked up build, you have every right to, but atleast put it in your search comments that you have skipped your most essential powers. I'm tired of being labeled the jerk because I kick these people from my team, but unless you have a good team with all good players, a Widow with no defense buffs is a liability.
I'm done.