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Completely broken. You want to make every attack in the entire set as powerful as the most powerful attacks in the set are right now? This is also completely ignoring the fact that the set would have terrible performance without massive amounts of recharge because you're making every single attack have a minimum base recharge of 6 seconds. Thunder Kick may be a bad attack at the top tier of play, but it's the attack you use when you're leveling because it recharges quickly so that you can actually saturate your attack string.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Thoughts?
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By providing every attack in the set with a flat 15% chance to crit, you're also making the entire set even more powerful than you would be by increasing the base damage (which would already threaten to break the set further). You would be providing turning the new "weakest" attacks in the set (Crane Kick, CAK, and Cobra Strike) with a DPA of 76.3. The weakest attacks would be given the DPAs of the best attacks in a number of other sets. Even worse, you're making the secondary effects of every attack in the entire set stronger than the comparative secondary effects in every other set: CAK is providing more immobilization than MG, Dragon's Tail would provide the secondary effects of both Whirling Hands and it's own secondary effect simultaneously, the chances on Cobra Strike and Crane Kick are better than the secondary effects of their comparative powers, and, to top it all off, you're giving every attack in the set the additional secondary effect of "more critting" (yes, a higher crit chance is the "given" secondary effect of Storm Kick).
You would generate a horribly broken powerset by instituting those changes: better secondary effects, more damage, and no real weakness. Those would never get through even the most preliminary forms of balance analysis.
If you want some simple numbers to demonstrate this, try this theoretical attack string: Storm>Thunder>Cobra>Storm>Thunder>CAK. You would only need SOs in order to run it (Storm and Thunder require 60% +rech while Cobra and CAK require 80%). You would be able to achieve a base DPS (no enhancements, no procs) of 89.5 with a 55% chance to keep a boss perma-stunned, 100% chance to keep him immobilized (stun + immob = held), and knocked on the ground roughly 10% of the time. That's 60% mitigation while doing as much damage as possible. For comparison's sake, MG>Smite>Siphon>Smite achieves only 75 base DPS while requiring 235% +rech and maintaining only 40% mitigation (roughly 20% -tohit) and Inc>GFS>Cremate achieves only 83.1 DPS while maintaining no mitigation.
An SO attack string with that build would be able of solidly outperforming the top tier attack strings of the two best ST performing in the game across all points of comparison. No, I'm sorry, that's just not gonna happen.
For Eagle's Claw, what if they used sleight of hand to up DPS without increasing damage, either by adding a bleed effect or a resistance debuff?
I'd like to see Eagle's Claw changed so it was worth hitting and Cobra Strike changed so it did competitive damage. Then I'd have lot's of options to make an attack chain. I get that the set isn't an AoE and I can live with that.
Changing Storm Kick to an AoE would move it to a different damage table and basically destroy the one good attack MA gets.
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lol, pretty much.| So is Storm Kick our Psychic Wail? Our one awesome power in a set of "good enoughs"? |
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| 240 damage means that you would likely have a 20-25 second recharge time and an endurance cost of roughly 18-20. |
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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Like I said...not the numbers person.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Completely broken. You want to make every attack in the entire set as powerful as the most powerful attacks in the set are right now? This is also completely ignoring the fact that the set would have terrible performance without massive amounts of recharge because you're making every single attack have a minimum base recharge of 6 seconds. Thunder Kick may be a bad attack at the top tier of play, but it's the attack you use when you're leveling because it recharges quickly so that you can actually saturate your attack string.
By providing every attack in the set with a flat 15% chance to crit, you're also making the entire set even more powerful than you would be by increasing the base damage (which would already threaten to break the set further). You would be providing turning the new "weakest" attacks in the set (Crane Kick, CAK, and Cobra Strike) with a DPA of 76.3. The weakest attacks would be given the DPAs of the best attacks in a number of other sets. Even worse, you're making the secondary effects of every attack in the entire set stronger than the comparative secondary effects in every other set: CAK is providing more immobilization than MG, Dragon's Tail would provide the secondary effects of both Whirling Hands and it's own secondary effect simultaneously, the chances on Cobra Strike and Crane Kick are better than the secondary effects of their comparative powers, and, to top it all off, you're giving every attack in the set the additional secondary effect of "more critting" (yes, a higher crit chance is the "given" secondary effect of Storm Kick). You would generate a horribly broken powerset by instituting those changes: better secondary effects, more damage, and no real weakness. Those would never get through even the most preliminary forms of balance analysis. If you want some simple numbers to demonstrate this, try this theoretical attack string: Storm>Thunder>Cobra>Storm>Thunder>CAK. You would only need SOs in order to run it (Storm and Thunder require 60% +rech while Cobra and CAK require 80%). You would be able to achieve a base DPS (no enhancements, no procs) of 89.5 with a 55% chance to keep a boss perma-stunned, 100% chance to keep him immobilized (stun + immob = held), and knocked on the ground roughly 10% of the time. That's 60% mitigation while doing as much damage as possible. For comparison's sake, MG>Smite>Siphon>Smite achieves only 75 base DPS while requiring 235% +rech and maintaining only 40% mitigation (roughly 20% -tohit) and Inc>GFS>Cremate achieves only 83.1 DPS while maintaining no mitigation. An SO attack string with that build would be able of solidly outperforming the top tier attack strings of the two best ST performing in the game across all points of comparison. No, I'm sorry, that's just not gonna happen. |
So, it was a bad idea. So change it up...
Get rid of the 15% chance to crit. Eh, I liked it the idea because it increased a single target oriented sets damage without directly increasing the damage.
Take my suggestion and lower Thunder's chance to stun back to it's original, with a 10% chance of knockdown on Storm.
I don't see the problem in making the tier 1 & 2 almost identical because "it hurts the lower level attack chain". Not every player goes the "Build for a respec path" in fact, I would guess most players don't. I know I've seen more starting MA scrappers skip Thunderkick than take it.
In fact, wasn't building for the whole game, not building around respecs, how it started? Not to mention, not everyone has access to the respecs TO play the build for respec playstyle.
I have access to Respecs, and I know I don't level my toons with the thought of "Okay...I'll build my toon this way level 1-20, respec into this, then that build to 20-41, then respec into my final build." Hell, I find that to be the stupidest way to do it, because respecs are such valuable things. That's why they're going for over 200million influence.
People are already skipping Cobra Strike, with everyone suggesting "Up it's damage". So, why not turn it into the Stun equivalent to Crane Kick's knockback (which some people complain about)? As for having a better chance of effecr than comparitive attacks, I have to ask...do you know chance of knockback on Crane Kick as it is on live?
60% [As you said: the chances on Cobra Strike and Crane Kick are better than the secondary effects of their comparative powers] in Crane Kick is how it is on LIVE. So, when I made the suggestion for Cobra Strike to become the stun equivalent to Crane Kick, I gave it the same 60% chance to trigger. Right now as it is, it's a 100% chance to trigger and no damage.
So, let's lower the chances for those status effects. Before my idea was being able to try to stack the effect of stun, or have more knock-effects. So, lower the chance of the effects.
CAK, just leave is as it is on LIVE now then. Let it's Immobilize and -Fly/-Spd effects be it's draw.
Dragon's Tail. Well, it has a 75% chance for .67 knockdown on LIVE now. My suggestion lowered the chance to 30%, then added a 30% chance of stun. So at best, I would think that would mean a 60% chance to effect a target AT BEST (and I highly doubt it's 60%, my guess is about 45%), while currently on live it has a 75% chance. So, I saw that as taking a hit there. Admittedly I increased it's radius to 10ft. But the damage stayed the same.
Saying that it would now have the effect of DT as is on live and Whirling Hands, I think is a non issue. Currently it has a 75% chance for knockdown now. WH has a 30% chance for stun now. So we combine the effects? That should be a non-issue. Not to mention everyone agrees WH sucks as it is.
EC, lose the chance for knockdown.
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So, lets see...this would I guess put someone at the...
Storm - Thunder - Cobra - Storm - Thunder - Crane - Repeat
Storm Kick and Thunder Kick would have to recharge in 2.904 seconds (1.056 animation time for Storm and Thunder, and 1.848 animation time for Cobra and Crane)...at 99.08% recharge enhancement (that's 3 Lvl 50 Generic RCH IOs) in both Storm and Thunder, that still puts it at 3.01 second recharge for them. So, they'd still need to take off .106 seconds for Storm and Thunder to be fluid in this chain...which 1 LotG: +RCH would do!
Now mind you, I haven't seen many builds that have 99.08% RCH enhancement in an attack...sooo...lets assume they have 60% (without hurting damage) They'd need what...another 46% Global Recharge?
Now, one could then just take Hasten. But then the chain wouldn't be non stop, because Hasten isn't perma that easily. So, they'd likely grab up the remaining 46% through set bonuses.
Now, Crane Kick and Cobra (if made to be like I suggested)...would be able to get the needed RCH for that chain, with 64.9% RCH.
That 7.92 Second Attack String would be 67.78 DPS.
And while it would require less RCH to obtain, than the two you mentioned, it also requires an additional power, and thusly more slot investment.
The mitigation was lowered, and well, it's a single target oriented set. Why not let it obtain it's optimal single target DPS chain easier?
Not to mention, everyone gripes about Smashing being so heavily resisted, and still no way to slot a -resist proc into the set.
...
How's that? Mind you, I'm just throwing out ideas here.
So with this revision, lowered the mitigation values, and lowered the DPS.
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The best ideas I have seen to fix MA yet. It never made sense that my Storm Kick was traveling through the bodies of 5 people, but only damaging one.|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
As i've said a million times on the subject a while ago, what they need to do, is turn Storm Kick into a melee cone, and turn Crane Kick, into a mini cone like that of headsplitter/golden dragonfly, which makes far too much sense that it shocks me it doesn't work this way already. For such a powerful kick, it makes complete sense that the force of the kick would travel through multiple opponents and knock them back as well. As does the melee cone on storm kick make sense too.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
The solution, as I see it, is to simply reduce the animation time on EC. Shave off half of a second by skipping some frames (especially during the "I'm hovering in midair, getting ready to kick you!" phase), and you'll bring the DPA from 59.2 to 73.1 (164/2.244). It would still be the "worst damage" of the tier 9s within its group, but it gets a pass on that by having a ridiculously awesome tier 2 power.
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Quote:
Any fix that makes Storm Kick even better isn't really going to be balanced. It's already the best attack in the set. It doesn't really need to be made better.
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Originally Posted by Necrotron_RO
The best ideas I have seen to fix MA yet. It never made sense that my Storm Kick was traveling through the bodies of 5 people, but only damaging one.
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Well when they do, what I had also originally suggested, and make CaK the "new storm kick" by reducing its animation time, to just a very quick kick to the shins, upping its DPA, then the cone of storm kick would be more balanced (reducing its crit chance of course and possibly porting it to CaK)
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Originally Posted by Umbral
Any fix that makes Storm Kick even better isn't really going to be balanced. It's already the best attack in the set. It doesn't really need to be made better.
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So your solution is less "buff Storm Kick" as it is "turn CAK into Storm Kick and weaken Storm Kick so that it becomes Shadow Maul"?|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
Well when they do, what I had also originally suggested, and make CaK the "new storm kick" by reducing its animation time, to just a very quick kick to the shins, upping its DPA, then the cone of storm kick would be more balanced (reducing its crit chance of course and possibly porting it to CaK)
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CAK is already a good enough power. It provides a good, useful secondary effect and deals a respectable amount of damage. CAK isn't a problem power (and if it were buffed up to the extent you seem to want it to be, it would be quite possibly bordering on overpowered by having higher crit chance, high DPA and immobilization). Storm Kick is in a gray area. Eagles Claw is definitely sub par. The simply solution is, honestly, to just fix Eagles Claw rather than trying to reinvent the entire set.
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I play my Martial Artist a lot. MA gets the job done, but is clearly lagging behind other sets, even single target based sets. I think what Umbral says there is the best solution. The fact that not using eagles claw is usually the best route in any given fight should speak to that. I think making the animation time on Eagles Claw shorter would do wonders to even out the set. Wouldn't that also make Thunder Kick and cobra strike marginally more useful for stunning? I would really love to see Eagles Claw turned into a small cone, but I'm not so sure I could perfectly justify that.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
The simply solution is, honestly, to just fix Eagles Claw rather than trying to reinvent the entire set.
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I find the rest of the set pretty good, but skipped Eagle's Claw on my scrapper, purely because of the animation time.
I'm currently using it on my Stalker with the alternate animation, and it still needs help because it takes too long. The stun is nice, but when it takes 3 seconds to deliver I find I prefer to open with Cobra Strike on dangerous leiutenants just to be sure of a quick reliable stun, despite the lack of damage.
At 3 seconds it also eats too much of Build Up time.
Eagle's Claw needs love, and Cobra Strike needs something as well. It could be buffed as a control, but I think making it do decent DPA is more in the line of other melee damage sets and gives this set some attack chain options.
I'd like to see a unified secondary effect but that would be gravy.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
I remember the days when Crane Kick, Crippling Axe Kick, and Cobra Strike had such long anticipation animations (ex: pulling back so you can go forward.) Oh, and Storm Kick was the Chun Li kick. 
What could probably be removed is the backflip in the Eagle's Claw animation.
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Lots of good stuff here:
1. I like the mini-cone crane kick idea
2. EC should be tweaked - all of you are doing a good enough job hashing it out. Please continue. I had the idea of a reverse MG damage application so that it functions as a delayed death touch (or on a 3...2...1...*BAM* countdown, but with much faster animation up front like old ET), but most dont like the mechanics.
3. Yes, I remember the old stick-it-in-yo-face *bappity-bappity-bap* kick.
4. Cobra Strike could get a lesser version of clobber? (dont ask me numbers).
5. Add a Power Boost like effect to Focus Chi - adds to the effectiveness of the secondary effects. The build-up would be the same durration, but make the effects part last... idk... 15sec? Adding a mag (like to EC and CS) of stun and 33% duration to stun/slows (CAK). Just throwing numbers out there. Of course, Crane Kick may suffer from increased KB = bad... Oh, well. I tried.
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CAK is the power I have the least reservation about changing in the MA set. Its DPA is only average, it has a history of having the least support for its animation of any MA attack, and its secondary effects are at best quixotic. A single target minion immobilize (with a chance for LT immobilize) is relatively low compared to almost every other secondary effect in existence, and CAK creates the additional illusion that MA has two additional secondary effects where it only has maybe 1.5: by packaging movement slow in a power with immobilize it makes the whole less than the sum of its parts - because slowing something you've immobilized is less than interesting.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
CAK is already a good enough power. It provides a good, useful secondary effect and deals a respectable amount of damage.
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When I finally get MA looked at, you'll know it when CAK is significantly altered.
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Strangely, despite the sorted history it's one of the few things that are working in the set for me. In actual game play CAK doesn't interrupt my fun, fits into my best attack chain, and is actually useful against some annoying situations like those stupid CoT mages that keep running away. While I wouldn't exactly complain about a revamp to the power, it's low on my list of things I'd like to see fixed in MA.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
When I finally get MA looked at, you'll know it when CAK is significantly altered.
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Also, if you take away the Immobilize or -Fly you are taking away a semi-decent PvP tool. I would like seeing a -Jump in addition to the -Fly in the power though.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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The problem is not the immobilize per se. The problem is putting the immobilize and the movement slow in the same power. If I were to take the stun from TK and the stun from Eagle's Claw and put them both into Cobra strike, so Cobra strike had three chances to stun the same target and those stuns didn't stack the "set" would have the same number of secondary effects, but they would be less effective. The same thing is happening to CAK.|
Originally Posted by Moonlighter
Strangely, despite the sorted history it's one of the few things that are working in the set for me. In actual game play CAK doesn't interrupt my fun, fits into my best attack chain, and is actually useful against some annoying situations like those stupid CoT mages that keep running away. While I wouldn't exactly complain about a revamp to the power, it's low on my list of things I'd like to see fixed in MA.
Also, if you take away the Immobilize or -Fly you are taking away a semi-decent PvP tool. I would like seeing a -Jump in addition to the -Fly in the power though. |
Now, if every MA attack slowed, and CAK was the special attack that also immobilized, that would be different. Dark Melee has this property where Touch of Fear has both a very strong -tohit and a fear. Stacking -tohit on a target that is feared is less beneficial than the sum of the two effects, because a target that is feared is not attacking (or at least not attacking as much). But its clear Touch of Fear didn't pay extra for that effect: Dark Melee wasn't given a limited amount of Tohit debuff and "wasted" some of it on ToF: it was basically given an unlimited amount of tohit debuff to put into all the attacks in any way the designer saw fit.
But MA's secondary effects are very clearly limited. It was granted only a limited amount of individual effects, including slow and immobilize. Putting them both into the same power only makes sense if the two effects were meant to be packaged as a singular "super effect" - the effect of "immobilize, or at least slow if not immobilized." But that means in the grand scheme of things it should really count as one effect simulated by two game mechanical effects.
Either way, either its one atomic effect which means the rest of the set is free to have additional immobilize and/or slow, or its two effects being counted too highly, in which case MA is still weak on secondary effects. Either way, CAK is one of the best, if not provably the best target for set tampering. The cottage rule would prevent me from removing the immobilize anyway. It would not prevent me from making the immobilize a guaranteed mag 3, or adding other effects to the power.
Also, in PvP its like a 50% chance for a two and a half second mag 2 immobilize. Its better than nothing, but its also not an especially interesting PvP effect.
For a variety of reasons I can't discuss, I've basically taken every idea I've ever had for buffing MA and set them on fire. But I've started rethinking the entire process from scratch based on the current state of the game and the latest greatest game engine mechanics. After Going Rogue launches, I'm going to take a brand new approach to reconceptualizing the design of MA.
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Okay...here's a new set of ideas.
If I'm not mistaken, people want MA to become a better single target set, as that's what it pretty much is. On the same note, in my opinion, single target DPS is only really important on EB Rank+ enemies.
Thunder Kick - Leave as is (early chain filler, that can be respeced out of).
Storm Kick - Leave as is (best DPA attack doesn't need anything to change that).
Cobra Strike - Leave as is (Though, I still think turning this into a Crane Kick Clone, but with a chance to stun over a chance to knockback is the way to go. They have the same animation time so should beable to equal out. Just my thought on how to get more people to take it. However, that isn't my thoughts on how to increase the sets DPS).
Focus Chi - Leave as is.
Crane Kick - Leave as is.
Warriors Challenge - Leave as is.
Crippling Axe Kick - Don't change anything! Add a 150% -Regen, 10-20 second duration, doesn't stack from the same caster.
Dragon's Tail - Leave as is OR possibly increase Radius to 10ft.
Eagle's Claw - Shave off some of that hangtime, as suggested per Umbral (and maybe others) to increase it's DPA.
There...the DPS of the set was just increased, without changing the damage values of the set. It makes Eagle's Claw (if I remember Umbral's number calculation right) just a bit better than Cran Kick in DPA.
So...likely one's best DPS chain would be:
Crippling Axe Kick - Storm Kick - Eagle's Claw - Storm Kick - Repeat.
Still middle of the road in actual DPS, but made up for on the hard targets with the -Regen.
How's that?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
That seems like a lot of -Regen for a Scrapper of all ATs to have. -250% I think is something like what the Envenomed Dagger temp does. But I think -500% is in the realm of what Lingering Radiation does. The only melee AT I can think of that does any -Regen are Widows, and that's something like -25%. Not really sure if -Regen is a good way to go about changing things.
I'd be fine with just lessening the hang time from EC. It always bugged me. Reducing the animation time sounds like an easier way to allow EC to have DPS in the realm of other set's Tier 9s. Not sure about the rest of the set.
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I was sure Umbral could figure out a better number for the idea, than I could...probably a good idea to go with -150% That's what those who slot up Drain Psyche can do...so I'll edit the post for that...|
Originally Posted by Goshnova
That seems like a lot of -Regen for a Scrapper of all ATs to have. -250% I think is something like what the Envenomed Dagger temp does. But I think -500% is in the realm of what Lingering Radiation does. The only melee AT I can think of that does any -Regen are Widows, and that's something like -25%. Not really sure if -Regen is a good way to go about changing things.
I'd be fine with just lessening the hang time from EC. It always bugged me. Reducing the animation time sounds like an easier way to allow EC to have DPS in the realm of other set's Tier 9s. Not sure about the rest of the set. |
I was just thinking of having it be high enough to be effective on the hard targets, and not resisted so much it's not worth it.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Well I wasn't strict on the crit chance exactly, just meaning transfer the lost DPA into CaK, so storm kick could become a cone.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
So your solution is less "buff Storm Kick" as it is "turn CAK into Storm Kick and weaken Storm Kick so that it becomes Shadow Maul"?
CAK is already a good enough power. It provides a good, useful secondary effect and deals a respectable amount of damage. CAK isn't a problem power (and if it were buffed up to the extent you seem to want it to be, it would be quite possibly bordering on overpowered by having higher crit chance, high DPA and immobilization). Storm Kick is in a gray area. Eagles Claw is definitely sub par. The simply solution is, honestly, to just fix Eagles Claw rather than trying to reinvent the entire set. |
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No it can't, because the cool factor is the only reason to still play the set. What could be removed is all the pauses in the Eagle's Claw animation. It would do better DPS and be more fluid so it would look better.|
Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
What could probably be removed is the backflip in the Eagle's Claw animation.
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Also, it could have a chance of knockdown. If I'm using a guy's head as a springboard, there's a good chance he's going to fall down. And when he does, it looks really cool.
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I doubt we'll ever get some kind of native -regen on a Scrapper simply because I doubt they'll ever give the AV killing AT (and, yes, I would label Scrappers as the "AV killing AT" because it's almost impossible to take a powerset pairing that can't be made to solo AVs well, with the exception of Spines/*). 150% -regen would turn into 22.5% -regen for a level 50 Scrapper on a level 50 AV, which equates to roughly 21.2 additional DPS for as long as the power lasts (assuming a Storm>CAK>Storm>Crane attack string, that's 117.5 extra "damage" for every iteration of the attack string).|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I was sure Umbral could figure out a better number for the idea, than I could...probably a good idea to go with -150%
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The problem with adding any kind of -regen to a set is that it is completely useless against all but an exceptionally small number of entities in game (AVs, GMs, and some players in PvP). Adding -regen is pretty much specifically stating that you want the set to be better against those targets than anything without it and that the power should be better than any other option you could possibly have on the table.
Personally, I wouldn't add any -regen to CAK, but that's mostly because I'm not entirely sure I see how a kick to the shin is going to make something heal slower. Lingering Radiation and Benumb provide -regen because they are literally stopping the ability to heal. Drain Psyche provides -regen because you're pulling it out of your target. Crippling Axe Kick is, quite literally, kicking a guy in the shin.
If Scrappers were to get any -regen, I would go about doing so by adding it in an APP, but that wouldn't fit with Castle's method of simply providing useless ancillary powers to Scrappers, so I doubt that will ever happen. Barring that, I'd go for a proc that provided -regen, but, once again, that would require providing something more useful for Scrappers than Defenders or Controllers, so I doubt that will happen either.
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How does it not act as one "super effect"? As I see it, CAK is a well designed power because it specifically accomplishes the two things set out for it: it deals damage and it either stops or inhibits the ability of the target to get away from you. It's not like CAK actually pays more for having a "second" secondary effect even though it largely amounts to one. As a power, it's perfectly well balanced, conceptually and mechanically.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
But MA's secondary effects are very clearly limited. It was granted only a limited amount of individual effects, including slow and immobilize. Putting them both into the same power only makes sense if the two effects were meant to be packaged as a singular "super effect" - the effect of "immobilize, or at least slow if not immobilized." But that means in the grand scheme of things it should really count as one effect simulated by two game mechanical effects.
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There isn't even a problem with CAK not working well with the other powers in the set. The presence of a single immobilization effect in one of your primary attacks doesn't somehow decrease the effectiveness of your stuns or knockback powers. If anything, it's good design because it's both a reasonably controllable effect (1 shot immob a minion, 50% chance to immob an LT, 2 shot immob a boss; if the target isn't immob'd, at least it's slowed down somewhat) and it doesn't face the issue of redundancy (because you don't have 6 attacks in the set that all immobilize, making anything past the second largely useless). If the design of the set is to have a large number of powers that each have secondary effects that are useful but not identical (i.e. swiss army secondary effects), CAK should be a model of how the powers in the set should be designed, not the power that should be changed first.
The problem only exists if you assume that the set is supposed to have a specific number of secondary effects present that that's all, which I don't think is true at all (you would need a dev to come in and outright tell me that they're limiting the number of different secondary effects and that they will only be present a certain number of times, because, otherwise, that's just unbelievable that the devs would shoot themselves in the foot like that). If you assume that the set is supposed to be designed around having a diverse number of secondary effects that, while not being directly synergistic, are intended to be used simultaneously, then there is no problem with CAK because the presence of an immob and a slow in the same power have no bearing upon the presence or magnitude of similar effects in any other power.
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Well, to answer some of this. Yes, adding -Regen to anything, is really saying "this perticular ability is only for the hard targets" (ie...EB Rank or Higher).|
Originally Posted by Umbral
I doubt we'll ever get some kind of native -regen on a Scrapper simply because I doubt they'll ever give the AV killing AT (and, yes, I would label Scrappers as the "AV killing AT" because it's almost impossible to take a powerset pairing that can't be made to solo AVs well, with the exception of Spines/*). 150% -regen would turn into 22.5% -regen for a level 50 Scrapper on a level 50 AV, which equates to roughly 21.2 additional DPS for as long as the power lasts (assuming a Storm>CAK>Storm>Crane attack string, that's 117.5 extra "damage" for every iteration of the attack string).
The problem with adding any kind of -regen to a set is that it is completely useless against all but an exceptionally small number of entities in game (AVs, GMs, and some players in PvP). Adding -regen is pretty much specifically stating that you want the set to be better against those targets than anything without it and that the power should be better than any other option you could possibly have on the table. Personally, I wouldn't add any -regen to CAK, but that's mostly because I'm not entirely sure I see how a kick to the shin is going to make something heal slower. Lingering Radiation and Benumb provide -regen because they are literally stopping the ability to heal. Drain Psyche provides -regen because you're pulling it out of your target. Crippling Axe Kick is, quite literally, kicking a guy in the shin. If Scrappers were to get any -regen, I would go about doing so by adding it in an APP, but that wouldn't fit with Castle's method of simply providing useless ancillary powers to Scrappers, so I doubt that will ever happen. Barring that, I'd go for a proc that provided -regen, but, once again, that would require providing something more useful for Scrappers than Defenders or Controllers, so I doubt that will happen either. |
However, getting high DPS, is really about the hard targets. No one needs high single target DPS for the every day spawns.
Now, Martial Arts is already a Single Target driven set. So, I'm not sure it's to much of a stretch to say that's what they want this set to be (you want the set to be better against those targets than anything without it and that the power should be better than any other option you could possibly have on the table.).
As for the reasoning behind the -Regen (which had an alter punch animation)...the martial artist is hitting a nerve point, stopping the flow of chi, causing a disruption in the tagrets regen.
Also, adding the -regen effect, only effects the HARD targets that make up very little of the game, but gives MA the distinction of being the ST DPS set, without really breaking the game.
Seeing as how I've found it pretty easy to come by Envenomed Daggers (which is still one of the reasons I don't see 250% -regen being a game breaker), putting in the -regen into an effect for a set didn't seem to far off the "OMG OPed" book (which you didn't say this time, after one of my suggestions >_>)
Add in more, that it doesn't help you do more damage to the game's regular content of Minions, LTs, and Bosses, to eat through the levels faster (and for those who stick to EBs, beat on them a bit faster).
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I should point out that I already won this argument with Castle years ago. And it shouldn't be "unbelievable" - its obvious that the devs are concerned about the amount of mez and other secondary effects that are placed individually into specific powers. Contrawise, and in defiance of reasonable balance, they are not - or rather historically have not - been concerned about pervasive secondary effects. The net effect of Dark Melee's tohit debuffs is *huge* but the thought never crossed anyone's mind to eliminate it from some of the powers for balance purposes. A similar situation occurs with the swords and defense debuff for the most part.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
The problem only exists if you assume that the set is supposed to have a specific number of secondary effects present that that's all, which I don't think is true at all (you would need a dev to come in and outright tell me that they're limiting the number of different secondary effects and that they will only be present a certain number of times, because, otherwise, that's just unbelievable that the devs would shoot themselves in the foot like that). If you assume that the set is supposed to be designed around having a diverse number of secondary effects that, while not being directly synergistic, are intended to be used simultaneously, then there is no problem with CAK because the presence of an immob and a slow in the same power have no bearing upon the presence or magnitude of similar effects in any other power.
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But when the devs put secondary effects individually into individual powers, they have historically been, and continue to be, much more cautious. Dark Melee's secondary effects besides tohit debuff are obviously hand-crafted. MA's original design also reflects this: TK had a mag 1 stun, cobra had the mag 3, and eagle's claw had its own chance for mag 3, CAK had the immobilize/slow, and dragon's tail and crane kick had the knockback. Storm Kick was a cone and didn't have a secondary effect.
CAK was a special power: it was intended to be a "tween" power that was in between a true mez-carrier (i.e. Cobra) and a genuine mid-tier attack. Its original damage was 1.0 scale, and it had a 2.0 cast time. Its DPA was one of the worst in the entire game's existence, but it wasn't intended to be an attack, it was intended to be a mez that also did damage. The devs were valuing that immobilize/slow combo *very* highly.
The players weren't, though, and when CAK was revamped its damage was bumped to its current value in I6. That was basically an acknowledgement from the devs that the immob/slow in CAK *wasn't* all that fantastic: certainly not enough to make the attack a weak attack (even though the devs historically did not factor in cast time or DPA, by their own reckoning the power was weak due to its low damage for its tier).
But MA was and is conceptually intended to be the best secondary effect scrapper primary (Dark Melee, the *true* secondary effect king, was always intended to be the utility king). I'm tired of explaining that one, so just ask Castle yourself if you don't believe me. The devs clearly considered CAK to be a valuable secondary effect power at the beginning of time, and a requirement to fulfill MA's secondary effect prowess which was also necessary at the time. When the devs acknowledged that CAK's secondary effect was not, in fact, very powerful, they in effect proved the point that CAK's secondary effect was underpowered. That could be corrected by leaving CAK alone and buffing all of the other powers to compensate, but CAK is not, and has never fulfilled its obvious original intent to be a strong secondary effect bolster for the powerset.
I can't quite prove that the devs overvalued the combination of immob/slow relative to each separately *because* of a belief in synergy that didn't exist, but I can prove all of the above, and within that context this is a reasonable assumption to make, and almost certainly true.
Also: a lot of people including some of the devs originally thought CAK debuffed recharge. Why? Because its combat spam said it did, so most players assumed it did. There weren't many ways for a player to verify that one way or the other for a long time after release, and even the devs wouldn't know unless they looked specifically at the power spreadsheets. And honestly there wasn't a lot of checking back then relative to now**. I was actually *told* by a red name back then that one of CAK's strengths that made it worth taking was its recharge debuff. Proving that CAK didn't debuff recharge was one of the very first non-defense mechanical tests I engineered in-game actually. The fact that anyone had to prove it at all should say something.
** The very first "numbers" debate I ever got into on the forums was with a poster that insisted that all blaster snipes took the same amount of time to fire. Proving that they didn't is what caused me to invent the demorecord timing system I still use today. But what's worth noting here is that I actually communicated to various red names my belief that this poster's numbers were wrong, and had two separate red names *confirm* his numbers, before I unambiguously disproved them. Prior to about I4, getting accurate information about the game even from the devs themselves was, sad to say, comparable to asking a magic 8 ball.
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Here's some thoughts...
Thunder Kick (Increase DMG to match Storm Kick)
-End Cost: 7
-Recharge: 6s
-Secondary Effect: 20% Chance for Mag 2 Stun
Storm Kick
-End Cost: 7
-Recharge: 6s
-Secondary Effect: 20% Chance for .67 Mag Knockdown
Cobra Strike (Increase DMG to match Crane Kick)
-End Cost: 10.2
-Recharge: 10s
-Secondary Effect: 60% Chance for Mag 3 Stun
Crane Kick
-End Cost: 10.2
-Recharge: 10s
-Secondary Effect: 60% Chance for Mag 3 Knockback
Crippline Axe Kick (Slight increase in DMG to give it just a bit better DPA than Crane Kick)
-End Cost: (Increased to new number as per the math formula)
-Recharge: (Increased to new number as per the math formula)
-Secondary Effect: Mag 4 Immobilize, -FLY, -SPD
Dragon's Tail (This assumes it's END+RCH=DMG or whatever the formula is, is correct)
-End Cost: 13.5
-Recharge: 14s
-Radius: 10ft
-Secondary Effect: 30% chance of .67 Mag Knockdown AND 30% chance of Mag 2 Stun
Eagle's Claw (Increase DMG reflect new End Cost and Recharge)
-End Cost: 15.2
-Recharge: 16s
-Secondary Effect: 100% chance of Mag 3 Stun AND 100% chance of .67 Mag Knockdown
ALL ATTACKS: Flat 15% Crit Chance, doesn't matter what the enemies rank, it's a 15% Chance to Crit.
Notes:
This allows the user to either...
1) Vary up the status effects
2) Concentrate on one set of status effects
3) Grab them all and use accordingly!
Crippling Axe Kick make this the oddball, but slightly better DPA heavy hitter. What it will do is ground that pesky target!
Dragon's Tail, the goal was to keep a 60% chance of a status effect happening, but splitting it off into a possible Stun or a possible Knockdown that will basically mesh with any route taken. The numbers may need to go up. My first thought was just to do a 50% chance for either happening. This can also have the effect of stunning AND knocking down the same target.
Eagle's Claw, I have no idea if this increases it's DPA enough to make worthwhile use out of. But what it does do, is give a promised mag 3 Stun, promised Knockdown (resistance varing), a bigger burst attack. I took the End Cost/Recharge of Total Focus, subtracted EC's End Cost/Recharge, devided the remaining number by half, and then added it back onto EC's original End Cost/Recharge.
What I don't know, is seeing as how AWESOME Storm Kick is now, is if having Thunder Kick being just as awesome, would make a OPed monster out of Martial Arts (this I would have to leave to the number crunchers), and is the only part that worried me about this suggestion.
Turning Cobra Strike into a Stun version of Crane Kick (they have the same animation time), seemed like a good idea for those who don't want the knockback.
This is why I also suggested putting CAK into a bit better DPA than Crane Kick (and thusly the proposed Cobra Strike). Because as it stands now, CK and CAK share the same DPArcanatime (1.848s). If they make it just slightly better than CK and the new CS, then they'd likely take CAK, and pick one or the other between CK and CS (mind you, this is me thinking of going along the lines of the current best DPS chain of SK - CAK - SK - CK - Repeat).
And with EC's new numbers, I would hope it may be worth throwing into the chain when it's recharged, but maybe not to big of a difference to worry about all the recharge needed to get it there ALL the time for the high DPS strings.
the 15% Chance on all attacks, should help VS all the Smashing Resistance Mobs. Where as the Blades get -Def to slot a -Resist Proc, Martial Arts gets an increased chance to crit.
Thoughts?
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