Quote:
If you are saying that the DPS performance of scrapper primaries is irrelevant to balance then I obviously disagree and I have to wonder why, of you feel that way, you'd bother posting in a MA balance thread at all. If you feel like you have the moral high ground by not worrying about the specific DPS numbers then great but why are you even reading this thread then?|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
This thread brings to mind something that has occurred to me before, but I'm not sure if I've voiced.
Knowing the numbers and being able to crunch them is a good thing. But, when you start simply discarding entire powersets as worthless because their DPS doesn't meet an arbitrary amount, that's taking it a little too far. I hate to tell you this, but DPS is NOT the only thing that is important. Sure, high DPS sets tend to perform better when doing things like soloing AVs, but when you're just smacking minions and LTs around, who cares if you're not running the most efficient attack chain? I like fiddling around with the numbers myself on occasion (though I don't take it to the spreadsheet extremes that some do), but at the end of the day the only thing that's REALLY important is the answer to this question: Is this set fun to play? And if you're one of those people that only has fun playing whatever the highest performing set is this week, I don't know what to tell you. (This post wasn't directed at anyone in particular, just felt like sharing my thoughts on the matter) |
Plus, no one in this thread has harped on the set's overall damage chain so I am not sure where this is coming from. The points that have been brought up:
~ Eagle's Claw isn't worth using
~ Cobra Strike isn't worth using
~ Crippling Axe Kick has poor secondary effects which could be fixed
~ Overall the set has poor AoE with nothing to compensate
~ Overall the set has poor mitigation with nothing to compensate
~ Overall the set has poor utility with nothing to compensate
The latest discussion was whether Crippling Axe Kick would be a good starting point to fixing the set.
The only time DPA was discussed was in regards to EC not being worth it and the fact that the set has nothing to compensate for it's lack of AoE including single target damage.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
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Quote:
For MA, this is actually important. Its why I do not advocate radically speeding up Eagle's Claw (BaB actually surprised me by finding frames to shave off that didn't significantly alter the visual look of the power). Doing so would significantly improve the damage of the set, but at the cost of altering one of the signature powers of the set: a lot of people probably take and use the power just because they like the way it looks (honestly, that's why I have it). |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
This thread brings to mind something that has occurred to me before, but I'm not sure if I've voiced.
Knowing the numbers and being able to crunch them is a good thing. But, when you start simply discarding entire powersets as worthless because their DPS doesn't meet an arbitrary amount, that's taking it a little too far. I hate to tell you this, but DPS is NOT the only thing that is important. Sure, high DPS sets tend to perform better when doing things like soloing AVs, but when you're just smacking minions and LTs around, who cares if you're not running the most efficient attack chain? I like fiddling around with the numbers myself on occasion (though I don't take it to the spreadsheet extremes that some do), but at the end of the day the only thing that's REALLY important is the answer to this question: Is this set fun to play? And if you're one of those people that only has fun playing whatever the highest performing set is this week, I don't know what to tell you. (This post wasn't directed at anyone in particular, just felt like sharing my thoughts on the matter) |
But contrawise, when you are trying to make improvements to a set where you *want* to honor all of these other constraints, it makes it all the more critical that the numbers you *do* tweak are very carefully chosen and altered to generate the results you want. So there is still a very good reason to understand how the set performs numerically, separate from how it performs mechanically.
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Quote:
Just to be clear, my focus on CAK has to do with what it says about how the secondary effects are constructed in MA. Its a good starting point because separate from the fact that MA is clearly lacking overall, its a good question to ask whether CAK represents what MA should be delivering with all of its attacks, or if its too low, or if (although I think this is basically impossible) it is actually too high. Its hard to have that conversation objectively about, say, Crane Kick. CAK is interesting enough to be non-trivial (TK is trivial to discuss) without being so complicated that the discussion is guaranteed to get bogged down in details (CK).|
Originally Posted by Moonlighter
The latest discussion was whether Crippling Axe Kick would be a good starting point to fixing the set.
|
Its simultaneously also one of the better candidates for buffing. Its DPA is low enough that there are no balance problems with considering it a strong candidate for high order foe effects (unlike Storm Kick which already has very high DPA) and its in the right spot in the powerset progression (unlocked at 18) to have a meaningful effect on the powerset relatively early in its career (unlike buffing Eagle's Claw, which would only have an effect on the set post 32).
But that doesn't mean CAK is turning into Power Build Up or anything. That would be silly. Being a good starting point doesn't mean its a good candidate for becoming the most powerful power in the set or anything. There's just a lot of latitude in the power to get creative, especially if its immobilize/slow isn't tampered with as part of the change.
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So the idea is: MA as it currently stands is balanced around strong secondary effects. Additionally the secondary effects are not strong enough to stand up against the effects found in the other sets. This means that either MA needs stronger secondary effects, or a new area that it can be balanced around. Am I getting that right?
Along that vein, and with me always having some kind of idea for something. How about this:
Cobra Strike - Same duration, Mag 4. Possibly with a chance for mag 2 maybe not.
Focus Chi - Add a +special effect to turn it into a power build up
Crane Kick - Change the Knockback to Knockup
Crippling Axe Kick - Get rid of the slow, make it a mini cone 20 degree arc, no range increase, Increase immob mag to 3 with a chance for 1.
Eagles Claw - Increase the chance to critical to at least 20% so that it really does have "an exceptionally good critical hit capability, better than other Martial Arts attacks,"
Other than that, I couldn't think of anything to improve MA while keeping the current theme, but there are tons of people more creative than I am.
GL all and have fun 
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Quote:
Its my idea, and I think it represents the current state of the powerset as the devs see it, but its not everyone's idea.|
Originally Posted by William_Valence
So the idea is: MA as it currently stands is balanced around strong secondary effects. Additionally the secondary effects are not strong enough to stand up against the effects found in the other sets. This means that either MA needs stronger secondary effects, or a new area that it can be balanced around. Am I getting that right?
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Quote:
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Along that vein, and with me always having some kind of idea for something. How about this: Cobra Strike - Same duration, Mag 4. Possibly with a chance for mag 2 maybe not. |
Quote:
| Focus Chi - Add a +special effect to turn it into a power build up |
Quote:
|
Crane Kick - Change the Knockback to Knockup Crippling Axe Kick - Get rid of the slow, make it a mini cone 20 degree arc, no range increase, Increase immob mag to 3 with a chance for 1. |
Quote:
| Eagles Claw - Increase the chance to critical to at least 20% so that it really does have "an exceptionally good critical hit capability, better than other Martial Arts attacks," |
Overall, though, I'm thinking a lot less "minor tweak" and a lot less conventional. I think in keeping with MA always being the unofficial "don't hate me because I'm beautiful" powerset, any change to the set now should follow MA's *unofficial* design concept: flair.
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From my somewhat limited experience with MA, I would say a good fix for MA would be lowering the animation time of Eagle's Claw, which others have said.
And also adding a Parry like damage to Cobra Strike.
And if that isn't going to happen, maybe go back to MA having an inherent 10% accuracy buff instead of 5%. Or maybe adding a 3% defense inherent or something to the set.
What if, instead of a cone, Crippling Axe Kick was a 5' radius targetted AoE? The final bit of the animation certainly could be seen to pulse damage outwards from the point of impact, ala Foot Stomp.
Also, instead of just fiddling with the crit chance, how about if Eagle's Claw went up in base damage to bring the DPS to acceptable levels given the long animation. I'm thinking KO Blow or Seismic Smash levels, here.
I'd also like to see it tried that, instead of doing a damage boost, Focus Chi gave a ToHit bonus and then added additional base Energy damage to your attacks, the way Enchantment of Serafina does with Psychic damage.
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Quote:
I think most people agree with you Claws.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
This thread brings to mind something that has occurred to me before, but I'm not sure if I've voiced.
Knowing the numbers and being able to crunch them is a good thing. But, when you start simply discarding entire powersets as worthless because their DPS doesn't meet an arbitrary amount, that's taking it a little too far. I hate to tell you this, but DPS is NOT the only thing that is important. Sure, high DPS sets tend to perform better when doing things like soloing AVs, but when you're just smacking minions and LTs around, who cares if you're not running the most efficient attack chain? I like fiddling around with the numbers myself on occasion (though I don't take it to the spreadsheet extremes that some do), but at the end of the day the only thing that's REALLY important is the answer to this question: Is this set fun to play? And if you're one of those people that only has fun playing whatever the highest performing set is this week, I don't know what to tell you. (This post wasn't directed at anyone in particular, just felt like sharing my thoughts on the matter) |
Out side of extremely hard targets, the only toon of mine that used a steady attack string was my Dual Blades Scrappers, and that was more an effect of the combo system than anything else.
I think the DPS is getting brought up, because other sets match or exceed MA (matching = give or take a few notches in DPS), while surpassing MA in the AOE and secondary effects.
Let's assume MA has a varied list of effects. The problem is, they're not considered reliable and/or useful.
For the stun effect, one has to use Thunderkick, which is neither a good at it or reliable, cobra strike, which needs to stack with something else to be of any use, and Eagle's Claw, which is some of the worst DPA.
The closest thing to CAK is Impale. CAK has the better DPA (60 vs 52) but Imaple has Mag 3 vs CAK's mag 2 Immobilze, and Impale give -RCH.
And the knock around effects...on CK it's KB (which I personally don't want to see changed or removed...it matches with the animation) which to some is an annoyance, not reliable, and Dragon Tail's KD isn't reliable.
Truthfully, for my playstyle when it comes to scrappers...mez effects I can take or leave. They're not that big of a deal. Knock-effects, I love. -Def is only good for slotting the -Resist proc.
DM's Heal = GREAT!
BS's/Kat's +DEF = GREAT (if not softcapped)!
And even with those two things, they come in second to FUN COOL ANIMATIONS! At least, Martial Arts has them beat there
However, Dual Blades, has just as cool animations (imo), beats Martial Arts in DPS (not by much, they're basically in the same area...this is according to the DPS calculations per Bill, and I don't think it used the -Resist effect), AOE, better knockaround...though Martial Arts does have the better burst (so MA tends to beat DB in PvP).
I think that's what people are getting at in this thread. Not that MA is the worst set. Not even that it's perticularly gimped as far as damage goes.
It's that it just doesn't have anything that really sets it apart, when all sets pretty much bring the damage and it's effects aren't as useful or available as often to be useful as others.
The problem arises, when everyone has different ideas on what to do to set it apart, give it it's niche over others. Some want more secondary effects, some would prefere more damage, some want added AOE...ect...ect...
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
It was discussed long ago that its an urban legend that MA ever had a 10% accuracy buff. It always had a 5% accuracy buff going back as far as Castle checked. The 10% number was a player guess that took on a life of its own but never confirmed through testing or dev confirmation.
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Originally Posted by BlackAdam
From my somewhat limited experience with MA, I would say a good fix for MA would be lowering the animation time of Eagle's Claw, which others have said.
And also adding a Parry like damage to Cobra Strike. And if that isn't going to happen, maybe go back to MA having an inherent 10% accuracy buff instead of 5%. Or maybe adding a 3% defense inherent or something to the set. |
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Quote:
The more I think about adding better criticals to Martial Arts, the less I'm liking it.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Adding critical chance gives a way to increase the damage of EC without tampering with its recharge. But I think in general I like the idea (not originally mine, but I've repeated it a lot) of EC having a chance to do knockdown to complement its stun. Knockdown would work against bosses better than the mag 3 stun, MA's stuns are almost *designed* not to stack with each other anyway which makes stacking to affect bosses for any significant length of time usually impractical for MA. The animation also seems to suggest the effect so the effect isn't inconsistent with the visual appearance of the power (at least the standard animation of it).
Overall, though, I'm thinking a lot less "minor tweak" and a lot less conventional. I think in keeping with MA always being the unofficial "don't hate me because I'm beautiful" powerset, any change to the set now should follow MA's *unofficial* design concept: flair. |
I know I've suggested it recently to, but it's dawned on me. That fixes it for Scrappers and Stalkers, but not for when it gets ported to Tankers and Brutes.
Increasing EC's DPA either through a cut in animation or an increase in Recharge/END Cost/DMG...works for me. Giving EC, Total Focus Recharge/End Cost, I would think would mean giving it the same DMG, but better DPA, as EC is roughly .8 seconds faster than TF.
I like this idea, just because I hate to see people leave a tier 9 attack out. That just seems wrong.
Continuing to think on it, I'm really liking the idea of adding -Regen to CAK or CS or both.
Besides increasing the DPS of the set, which would only matter on hard targets, it adds a useful teaming function. Won't help clear missions as fast as those with lots of AOE, but taking down those harder targets at the end of the later arcs and tf/sf becomes faster.
Testing would have to be done on how much though, as I think it would have to be enough use and not be resisted so much as to not be wasted.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
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Quote:
If the damage extended outward, we'd have the AoE factor issue again. If it was just the secondary effects - immobilize and slow - then AoE factor would not likely be a problem, but honestly that would require a design exception and I personally would not want to waste a lifeline on that request.|
Originally Posted by MagicFlyingHippy
What if, instead of a cone, Crippling Axe Kick was a 5' radius targetted AoE? The final bit of the animation certainly could be seen to pulse damage outwards from the point of impact, ala Foot Stomp.
|
Quote:
| Also, instead of just fiddling with the crit chance, how about if Eagle's Claw went up in base damage to bring the DPS to acceptable levels given the long animation. I'm thinking KO Blow or Seismic Smash levels, here. |
There was actually a brief period of time when it was, but that was when TK was broken with too high a damage number, and every other scrapper primary had much less single target damage than they do now. The speed ups that BaB put into the melee sets, while welcome, made it much more difficult to make MA the undisputed single target king without getting too far out of hand.
Quote:
| I'd also like to see it tried that, instead of doing a damage boost, Focus Chi gave a ToHit bonus and then added additional base Energy damage to your attacks, the way Enchantment of Serafina does with Psychic damage. |
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Hmmm...another though...going along the route of "King of Secondary Effects"..."Jack of all Secondary Effects, Master of None" if they're willing to break the cottage rule for this...
Thunder Kick - Chance for Stun becomes Chance for Confuse (all things considered, it looks like a head shot, sooo...you smack them hard enough they hit blindly at others ina daze...low duration)
Storm Kick - This is the HIGH DPA attack
Cobra Strike - Up the damage a bit (trollers do more damage with their straight mez range attacks)...Mag 3 Stun + -Regen (I've just come to think this is a good way to up MA's over all DPS without upping MAs over all DPS to much...if 150% is to much...and knowing Poison Dart's 25% is to low...75-100% maybe?) though, maybe no -Regen at all. Still, I like the idea. Sets so Single Target focused should be some of the best ST DPS.
Crane Kick - Leave as is!
Crippling Axe Kick -Mag 2 Immobilize with a Chance for an additional Mag 1.
Dragon's Tail - Increase Radius to 10ft
Eagle's Claw - Two ways to fix the DPA of this attack...Up the damage (and thus RCH/END) or shave off some the animation. Either will work. I'm thinking up the damage to be like Total Focus (but with better DPA due to shorter animation), mainly because some people like the hang time effect of EC. Replace the Stun with a Hold effect!
A wide array of mez effects Confuse, Stun, Knockback, Immobilize, Knockdown, Hold! None of which will specifically effect a boss, outside of additional help through other powers or IOs!
So grab that Immbolize and or Hold from the epics and start stacking! Go Dark Armor and add more stun! Ect...ect...
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Thunder Kick (update proposal)
- +7.152s Stun (mag 1) (30% chance) PvE only
- +7.152s Stun (mag 1) (30% chance) PvE only
- +2.384s Stun (mag 1) (30% chance) If target is a player
Suppressed when Held, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Sleep, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Stunned, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Immobilized, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Terrorized, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive) - +2.384s Stun (mag 1) (30% chance) If target is a player
Suppressed when Held, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Sleep, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Stunned, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Immobilized, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Terrorized, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
All other effects and stats remain unchanged.
-----
Cobra Strike (update proposal)
- Self:
- DEF (Melee, Smashing) +15% for 10s
- Target:
- +0.67 Knockback PvE only
- +0.67 Knockback If target is a player
Suppressed when Knocked, for 10 seconds (WhenInactive)
All other effects and stats remain unchanged.
Power updated to accept Defense Buff and Knockback enhancements and IO Sets.
-----
Crippling Axe Kick (update proposal)
- +11.92s Immobilize (mag 3) PvE only
- +11.92s Immobilize (mag 1) (50% chance) PvE only
- +2.384s Immobilize (mag 3) (50% chance) If target is a player
Suppressed when Held, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Sleep, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Stunned, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Immobilized, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Terrorized, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive) - +0.67 Knockback (60% chance) PvE only
- +0.67 Knockback (60% chance) If target is a player
Suppressed when Knocked, for 10 seconds (WhenInactive)
All other effects and stats remain unchanged.
Power updated to accept Knockback enhancements and IO Sets.
-----
Eagles Claw (update proposal)
- +7.152s Stun (mag 3) PvE only
- +7.152s Stun (mag 1) (15% chance) PvE only
- +2.384s Stun (mag 3) If target is a player
Suppressed when Held, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Sleep, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Stunned, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Immobilized, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Terrorized, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive) - +2.384s Stun (mag 1) (15% chance) If target is a player
Suppressed when Held, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Sleep, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Stunned, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Immobilized, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Terrorized, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive) - +0.67 Knockback PvE only
- +0.67 Knockback If target is a player
Suppressed when Knocked, for 10 seconds (WhenInactive)
All other effects and stats remain unchanged.
Power updated to accept Knockback enhancements and IO Sets.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
I am in complete agreement with Arcanaville on this one.
The damage of the set is just fine but to improve on the secondary effects would be the way to go IMO.
Thunder Kick should be higher chance to stun. 1 shot minion, combined with Cobra should stun Lts and Bosses.
Storm Kick is fine as is, maybe add a small chance to Knockdown.
Crane Kick is fine as is, but changed to Knockdown or Knockup, at least 60% chance.
CAK, should be 100% Immob chance, with a 60% chance to stun Minions and Lts.
Dragon's Tail could stand a higher knockdown chance but seems fine.
EC should be knockdown plus the crit. (I would also like to see the Animation reduced a tad)
Taunt, Focus Chi are fine
So this would give a very consistent Knockdown/Knock-up feel to the set and the ability to double stack stun IF you take Cobra Strike plus either Thunder Kick, CAK or EC (which some min-maxers currently do not take TK or EC).
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Quote:
Really, I can't agree with turning Crane Kick into a knockdown or knockup. Look at the animation...it's knockback.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
I am in complete agreement with Arcanaville on this one.
The damage of the set is just fine but to improve on the secondary effects would be the way to go IMO. Thunder Kick should be higher chance to stun. 1 shot minion, combined with Cobra should stun Lts and Bosses. Storm Kick is fine as is, maybe add a small chance to Knockdown. Crane Kick is fine as is, but changed to Knockdown or Knockup, at least 60% chance. CAK, should be 100% Immob chance, with a 60% chance to stun Minions and Lts. Dragon's Tail could stand a higher knockdown chance but seems fine. EC should be knockdown plus the crit. (I would also like to see the Animation reduced a tad) Taunt, Focus Chi are fine So this would give a very consistent Knockdown/Knock-up feel to the set and the ability to double stack stun IF you take Cobra Strike plus either Thunder Kick, CAK or EC (which some min-maxers currently do not take TK or EC). |
That change seems more along the lines of "I don't want to possibly chase a target" than trying to help the set. The knockback is fine.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Can I ask a question regarding Crippling Axe Kick?
What good does an Immobilize - especially one that needs to be done at melee range - do for a melee character?!
This serves NO purpose. It can't reliably effect anything but minions, doesn't prevent the KB from Crane Kick... the victim is still there, capable of attacking you.
The only use an immobilize would have would be to prevent runners... no, wait - anything we'd want to stop running would laugh off the Mag 2/Mag 3 Immobilize this attack can grant.
Well, maybe good for retreating... oh, silly me. A Scrapper, retreat? Even on the off chance there exists such an animal as a Scrapper with the self preservation to run away when things get hot... a single target immobilize that can only reliably snare a minion is equally useless for a strategic withdrawal.
Heck, the slow is pretty much the same! It's not a -recharge, so it doesn't really give... any mitigation at all.
So really... what purpose do the Immobilize and the Slow in CAK serve? Can anyone explain why these are effects that are useful to the Scrapper using them?
Martial Arts is a great concept, and I really, REALLY wanted to like it. But as it is, it is just - tedious. The single target focus limits my abilities while soloing, and my value to the group while teaming. The "All Over" secondary effects mean that they rarely make any kind of difference. Overall, I've got to agree with Moonlighter. This set seemed to trade off AoE potential, Mitigation potential, and any real utility... for flashy animations. And looking good just doesn't cut it.
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
Quote:
Outside of PvP, very little. Worse, its almost impossible to know that it ever had an effect, because there's no way to know if your target would have moved if you hadn't immobilized it, and the immobilize doesn't have an obvious visible sign that it even took effect.|
Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
Can I ask a question regarding Crippling Axe Kick?
What good does an Immobilize - especially one that needs to be done at melee range - do for a melee character?! |
Ranged immobilize makes sense for runners. Melee immobilize has some benefit, but as I said a single target melee immobilize that is only mag 2 by default is probably the lowest possible foe effect that can still be called a foe effect. It would be interesting if it was in a PBAoE - it would then paralyze potentially a whole bunch of minions. If it was ranged it would be interesting: it would then be Impale. If it affected mag 3 or 4 it would be, well not exactly interesting but not exactly trivial either (bosses are less likely to run usually anyway). Single target melee ranged mag 2 immobilize is trying to make the worlds weakest mez and succeeding in spades.
I suppose 10% chance for single target melee ranged mag 2 immobilize would be weaker, but I think even Geko had to draw the line somewhere.
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If MA does get adjusted, I'd personally just like a competitive activation time with Eagles Claw, though the buffs of the secondary effects would also be nice, any adjustment to MA that doesn't also involve the reduction of EC's activation time will be very disappointing.
Quote:
Yep, thats kinda the point. I love watching things fly across a room, or flop over the edge of a balcony. It still makes me grin from ear to ear, but there are times that I wonder how chasing the thing that I just kicked is helping me defeat a spawn, or if its actually exposing me to more potential damage. Often I find myself using Crane kick as an opener to thin a herd and then switch to another target while its getting up. That or aiming my target at a wall so I dont have to run so far. This whole menagerie of function would go away by changing it to knockdown/up. I will admit that it would cheapen the "fun factor" a tad.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Really, I can't agree with turning Crane Kick into a knockdown or knockup. Look at the animation...it's knockback.
That change seems more along the lines of "I don't want to possibly chase a target" than trying to help the set. The knockback is fine. |
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Quote:
What if it was a short duration -speed and -recharge, resistable only by critter innate resistances (like AVs). This would have a similar impact but actually be melee useful.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Outside of PvP, very little. Worse, its almost impossible to know that it ever had an effect, because there's no way to know if your target would have moved if you hadn't immobilized it, and the immobilize doesn't have an obvious visible sign that it even took effect.
Ranged immobilize makes sense for runners. Melee immobilize has some benefit, but as I said a single target melee immobilize that is only mag 2 by default is probably the lowest possible foe effect that can still be called a foe effect. It would be interesting if it was in a PBAoE - it would then paralyze potentially a whole bunch of minions. If it was ranged it would be interesting: it would then be Impale. If it affected mag 3 or 4 it would be, well not exactly interesting but not exactly trivial either (bosses are less likely to run usually anyway). Single target melee ranged mag 2 immobilize is trying to make the worlds weakest mez and succeeding in spades. I suppose 10% chance for single target melee ranged mag 2 immobilize would be weaker, but I think even Geko had to draw the line somewhere. |
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Any -Recharge effect in CAK would need to be ... large ... in order to be even noticeable simply due to the fact that there's nothing else in MA for CAK to synergize with. And because it would have to be a "large" amount of -Recharge, because it's a lonely single target attack with nothing else to back it up or stack with, you wind up with a situation where you're either needing to make allowance for it to stack onto itself ... or ... the effect does not stack from same caster.
If the -Recharge *is* stackable with itself, that basically makes it something where it takes a "wind up" of a repeated attack chain before the -Recharge stack gets deep enough to be "worthwhile" as a means of slowing down ... well ... anything really. On top of that, the -Recharge would need to have a long enough duration (which is NOT increased by Enhancements, btw) so as to be able to self-stack. Which then means you'd need to be fighting targets which could survive a full cycle of attack chains (or few). That means that LTs and Minions are "too wimpy" for CAK to really hit them enough times to slow them down (before they faceplant from sheer damage input). That essentially "reserves" the full -Recharge stackable value for Bosses, EBs and AVs.
If the -Recharge is *not* stackable with itself, then it needs to be "hefty" in order to justify its existence (beyond token joke). Something on the order of -40 or -50 Recharge, if it's meant to be a credible source of damage mitigation and worthy of the "Crippling" in the name of the power. This gives a lot more design leeway, since you don't have to worry about self-stacking.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
Quote:
Considering that Crane Kick, which is arguably the best "special attack" currently in the set (not counting Cobra Strike, since its damage is a joke), can reduce a critters incoming damage by 50% (assuming you dont go chasing after it and wait for it to run back), I dont see a problem with a stacking 50% -speed and -rech on CAK. Wouldn't you reach the "floor" after 2 successful hits ? After that it doesnt really matter how often you hit, all you are doing is refreshing the effect. Even at maximum recharge, would someone deliberately spam this attack at the risk of lower dps? How much could it really affect something like an AV ?|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
Any -Recharge effect in CAK would need to be ... large ... in order to be even noticeable simply due to the fact that there's nothing else in MA for CAK to synergize with. And because it would have to be a "large" amount of -Recharge, because it's a lonely single target attack with nothing else to back it up or stack with, you wind up with a situation where you're either needing to make allowance for it to stack onto itself ... or ... the effect does not stack from same caster.
If the -Recharge *is* stackable with itself, that basically makes it something where it takes a "wind up" of a repeated attack chain before the -Recharge stack gets deep enough to be "worthwhile" as a means of slowing down ... well ... anything really. On top of that, the -Recharge would need to have a long enough duration (which is NOT increased by Enhancements, btw) so as to be able to self-stack. Which then means you'd need to be fighting targets which could survive a full cycle of attack chains (or few). That means that LTs and Minions are "too wimpy" for CAK to really hit them enough times to slow them down (before they faceplant from sheer damage input). That essentially "reserves" the full -Recharge stackable value for Bosses, EBs and AVs. If the -Recharge is *not* stackable with itself, then it needs to be "hefty" in order to justify its existence (beyond token joke). Something on the order of -40 or -50 Recharge, if it's meant to be a credible source of damage mitigation and worthy of the "Crippling" in the name of the power. This gives a lot more design leeway, since you don't have to worry about self-stacking. |
These are all questions I am too tired to find the answers to really.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Quote:
Enchantment of Seraphina doesn't provide all of your attacks with additional psychic damage. It provides you with a global damage bonus to psychic damage (see here). It is, however, possible for a power to do this, though it requires that it be a specific list of powers and not just "all powers". Considering that it would likely apply only to the MA attacks and no others, it wouldn't be altogether that hard to do.|
Originally Posted by MagicFlyingHippy
I'd also like to see it tried that, instead of doing a damage boost, Focus Chi gave a ToHit bonus and then added additional base Energy damage to your attacks, the way Enchantment of Serafina does with Psychic damage.
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Now, the question, as I see it, is whether Focus Chi should actually do such a thing. Personally, I don't really think it needs to be anything different than Build Up with a possible buff or addition of specific secondary effects to all MA powers while it is active. If we're discussing changes to Focus Chi, I would suggest that Focus Chi either increase the chance for the chance based secondary effects (which we know is possible thanks to Dual Pistols) or add additional magnitude of the very same effects if those powers are guaranteed. Assuming that the powers remain the same (which I doubt they would), imagine if Cobra Strike and Eagles Claw could actually provide mag 4 stun if you used them while Focus Chi was active or if the knockdown in Dragon's Tail was guaranteed under the same condition. This would easily allow Castle to circumvent the headache of dealing with Power Build Up effect but still allow Focus Chi to provide specific, meaningful improvements to the secondary effects while it is active. It would also allow players to get some immediate and controllable use out of those less used and less like secondary effects without treading upon the toes of Controllers and Dominators.
Concerning the desire to maintain the "flair" of MA while simultaneously tackling the issue of improving performance, I really would have to wonder if players that like EC would suddenly start hating it if the attack didn't have the pause in the air. Removing half of a second from the animation time would still leave the animation with plenty of time to look devastating (Golden Dragonfly is even faster and yet it still manages the hangtime and visual effect without completely rendering the attack useless) while being the simplest way to improve performance for that power in question.
Now, if I were to be forced to come up with a suggestion for what to do with the powers in the set, I wouldn't touch the damage or recharge values: as I see it, those are fine. The only problematic damage power is Eagles Claw and that's largely because the animation is too long relative to its dam/rech/end. (all of these values assume the targets are enemies)
Thunder Kick: Split the current stun chance into a 10% chance for mag 1 stun and 100% chance of mag 1 stun with the same duration as is current (the mag 1 effect would not stack with itself). This would prevent the power from being able to stun minions while still allowing it to provide some stacking capability with other stun powers within the set. While Focus Chi is active, the 10% chance increases to 100% so that the power provides a 100% chance for a mag 2 stun.
Storm Kick: Leave it alone. It's already awesome enough. Focus Chi provides no additional benefit beyond the basic +dam.
Cobra Strike: Leave the 100% chance for mag 3 stun alone and add a guaranteed 11.25% -tohit debuff to the power. If you stun the target they're not attacking. If you don't manage to stun the target, you've addled them enough that they're not going to be able to hit you as easily (yes, I realize that it's the same amount of -tohit that ToF is bringing; I'm allowing for the "full" quantity even though Cobra Strike deals damage because MA doesn't have much other -tohit to stack with it). While Focus Chi is active, the power provides another mag 1 stun and 5.625% more -tohit.
Focus Chi: It stay the same, with one exception. It alters all of the powers in the listed ways (whether by altering proc chances in the same way as Swap Ammo does or provide additional benefits as an activated mode like the Kheldian Forms, Targetting Drone, and all of the Dual Blades attacks).
Crane Kick: Lower the chance for knockback down to 40% while adding a 7.5% defense debuff and 40% chance for a flat mag 4 knockup (doesn't use the sliding scale, just uses melee ones), logic being that you're either knocking them off of their feet and it's now easier to hit them while they're down or you've hit them hard enough that they've lost some of their footing so they're still easier to hit. The knockback and knockdown combine to provide a 64% chance to knock the target. Additional benefit in that it would allow MA to bring an AH proc to bear. While Focus Chi is active, the chance for knockback and knockup increases to 100% and the power provides another 7.5% -def. Having both knockback and knockup in this power may seem a bit strange until you check out...
Crippling Axe Kick: Leave it be except that the power also provides 10000% +res(knockback). Yes, immobilization isn't really all that useful (well, unless you want to prevent a target from running, something that I actually found quite useful about MG regardless of whether other players have found it menacing), but the ability to stop a target from being flung away from you is useful to melee. The power doesn't provide resistance to knockup however, so you'll still get to toss the guy to the ground with (new) Crane Kick and other KU powers. While Focus Chi is active, the power provides another mag 1 immobilize, another dose of -spd, and a 40% -rech debuff.
Dragon's Tail: Change it from knockback to knockup and increase the mag to 4 (melee ones). Increase the radius to 10' as well. While Focus Chi is active, the chance increases to 100%.
Eagles Claw: Decrease the animation time by .5 seconds. Reduce the single target damage down to 1.78 scale (from 2.28) and have the power provide an additional .5 scale to all enemies within 7' (a la [Electrical Melee.Thunderstrike]). The critical damage only applies to the first target and is equal to the full damage of the power (i.e. 2.28 damage scale). When Focus Chi is active, the power provides an additional 1 mag of stun.
Overall changes:
The most obvious should be that the set gets a bit more AoE damage. Dragon's Tail gets a larger range and Eagles Claw starts dealing damage to nearby enemies, making both powers substantially nicer. The ST damage goes up a bit by adding the ability to slot an AH proc as well as improving the DPA on Eagles Claw (which, even if it's not a stellar choice for an ST attack chain due to the comparatively long animation time, is still an excellent choice for additional AoE utility). The secondary effects become substantially more cohesive and capable of stacking without allowing for an untoward benefit that would make the set more powerful than it should be. You also have the ability to prevent your target from getting bounced away from you with your own attack while still getting a fair deal of mitigation from knock effects. Focus Chi also gets the "better secondary effects" benefit without making Castle pull out his hair with Power Build Up, and, since Castle could control the explicit contribution of each and every one of the additional secondary effect mechanisms of Focus Chi, it would be substantially easier to balance. It would also have the added benefit of actually providing the set with a useful Power Build Up type effect that would allow for instantaneous lockdown of bosses while the power is active, without forcing power cycling to accomplish it.
Look, I play "fun for me" over "uber" sets all the time. Look at my sig. It doesn't mean that I don't think those sets should be brought up to par with the rest.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World