Change the icons of Dual and Single Origin Enhancements
By
A Man In Black,
Posted on: 2010-06-25 13:09 in Suggestions and Ideas
Here's my thoughts on the situation. I didn't read every post, but I think I got the gist of it.
How can you tell apart DOs/SOs?
1) The color: Especially for the grey colors, this isn't a very good solution. I know I personally have trouble finding recharge reductions in stores.
2) The name: This only works if you've been playing long enough to memorize what they are, the names are flavor and confusing.
3) The tooltip text: This is currently bugged.
4) The information: this is two extra steps that shouldn't have to be needed. You may say it's a simple two steps (right click, then left click "info") but it is still two more steps.
5) The icon: This works for DOs and generic IOs, but not DOs/SOs, they only have a handful of different icons which are shared between many enhancements.
So, which is the best solution to correct this problem? I would say Icons or names.
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You didn't miss very much.|
Originally Posted by Bubbawheat
I didn't read every post
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This would not be a change that affects me, but since it appears to make things easier for others, I have no objections to it.
Current main:
Schrodinger's Gun, Dual Pistols/Mental Blaster, Virtue
Avatar: Becky Miyamoto from Pani Poni Dash. Roulette roulette~
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I think you're confusing "easier" with "less cumbersome". The game (under the proposed change) doesn't buy the SOs for you. It doesn't slot them for you. All it does is make it slightly easier to tell the difference between the multitudes of similar DOs/SOs.|
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
i think what people fail to see is that, while a QoL issue of some sorts, if the game keeps getting easier no one will want to play it.
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| if you make them all the same icon, you will now have to rely on the border around the enhancements to tell you if it is a to/do/so/io. wanna know how many people will ***** about that? |
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| i still find it funny that people are ******** about taking a few seconds to read something also. it doesn't take that much time at all out of your game play. |
That's hardly "a few seconds".
As Bubba said so well, "4) The information: this is two extra steps that shouldn't have to be needed. You may say it's a simple two steps (right click, then left click "info") but it is still two more steps."
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no i'm not and no i don't. if you(general) pay attention to what you(general) are doing and take the time to learn it rather then just buying whatever it isn't a problem. that is all i am saying. what you(you) seem to have a problem with is people actually taking a few mins to read some info on a part of a game. i stated i have no problem if they want to put a tag on the enhancements. that makes sense. the picture on the enhancement is just fluff. but difficult to change. more so then adding a tag.
| You seem to be under the impression that people only need to buy one SO ever, and that they only have one toon. |
(excuse the funny black & white, flickr did something odd to it - the actual file I have, and the 260 files it's built out of, are all appropriately transparent.)
There. Isn't that better?
And since you insist this is /so hard/, let me tell you how long it took.
10 minutes of downloading the TO images and the DO and SO origin borders from ParagonWiki.
90 minutes of programming, including downloading, installing, and remembering how to use Python Imaging Library.
1.4 seconds of processing.
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That's the entire point we've been trying to make! For something as core to the game, and something so straightforward in other places like TOs and IOs, the system used for DOs and SOs should be intuitive, not something you should have to "take time to learn".|
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
no i'm not and no i don't. if you(general) pay attention to what you(general) are doing and take the time to learn it
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The overall point is not solely changing the icons. That would solve the problem...but so would many other ideas presented in this thread. The idea is to make the stores more intuitive to use, and the SOs/DOs easier to find, however that might be accomplished.
Now that I think about it, there's a (small) advantage to updating the icons over the text: they don't have to be localized like text does.
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Aesthetically dull, IMO, but w/e. I can see people now buying the wrong origin more often, especially on higher res monitors where that ring is harder to see. The origin specific icons help out there, as well. I know exactly when I've scrolled too far, because I'm now seeing dragons and fists or atoms or w/e. Unless the stores that carry all the origins get a filter or organized into tabs or something like a couple people suggested earlier. (I think that's part of the "system" mentioned earlier.) | There. Isn't that better? |
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| And since you insist this is /so hard/, let me tell you how long it took. |
No, I haven't bothered doing it either. I have nothing that bugs me enough to do something like this for.
Personally I have no problem with the system as it is now. I can find what I need quickly. Yes, I had to learn, but you have to learn everything you do in life unless you're God, so the "shouldn't have to learn" argument is silly and lazy-sounding to me. The only reason I prefer IOs isn't a simpler system but that they don't expire.
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
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I would disagree.
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Originally Posted by Stormbird
Aesthetically dull, IMO, but w/e. I can see people now buying the wrong origin more often, especially on higher res monitors where that ring is harder to see.
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I really don't want to homogenize the DOs/SOs. It makes the game lose flavor, which is not what anyone should want to happen.
The best solution is to add a description in the store and/or to fix the broken tooltip.
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Originally Posted by Vornotron
 Hyperbaric Matrix (Sleep) |
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Perhaps they could ADD more icons so each is unique for the type/origin instead of re-using the same icon with a different color.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
I really don't want to homogenize the DOs/SOs. It makes the game lose flavor, which is not what anyone should want to happen.
The best solution is to add a description in the store and/or to fix the broken tooltip. |
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"Don't use part of the system! Tell me what it is!" Sorry, you can't tell dark green from light grey? Even with colorblindness, I'd imagine some *shading* difference there would help. Still, if you're in the store - position in the list. Again, a sleep is going to be in a specific location. If I'm looking at a damage enhancement, I know the sleep isn't going to be anywhere near. |
Originally Posted by Vornotron
You say repeatedly that these things are part of a system. Describe this system. How do I tell what this item is?
Hyperbaric MatrixOrigin is obvious: the border says "technology" on the left and "science" on the right. So, tell me what marks identify it as a sleep duration enhancement, other than color, that are not unique specifically to this one enhancement. In addition, tell me what marks, again other than color, identify it as not a slow, or disorient duration, or the other 22 Sci/Tech DOs with the same central icon. (yes, every single sci/tech DO has the same central icon except for Resist Damage) |
But, hey, go on, do whatever you want. I'm rather tired of arguing the point, especially when one of those trying to argue it has "I shouldn't have to learn anything" as their position to begin with, which is what got me posting in the *first* place, and another's telling me "names can only be relevant or it's too difficult" (tell me what I'm talking about when I mention a mustang?) while at the same time saying "Ignore this part and that part, too."
Go get all the hand-holding you want. This is me no longer caring to hear about it.
I'd like stores to have a couple of filters, similar to the Search window.
So like the way you choose say "Sharkhead Island" and "21-30","25-35" in the search window, you could select to only see "Magic" and "Damage","Accuracy", and only Magic SOs or Magic/* DO's or TOs would appear, and only those that enhance damage or acc. Both categories would have an "All" like the search window does.
This would not only help find the enhancements you want, but make scrolling through Ghost Falcon's lists much easier 
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There is that, too. I advocated updating the store interface up-thread, too. Being able to search by name "Hyperbaric Matrix" OR effect "Sleep", being able to sort for a specific origin (i.e. "Natural only" or "can be used by Natural (Nat/Mag,Nat/Tech,Natural)"), etc. Big boon to the stores.|
Originally Posted by DrMike2000
I'd like stores to have a couple of filters, similar to the Search window.
So like the way you choose say "Sharkhead Island" and "21-30","25-35" in the search window, you could select to only see "Magic" and "Damage","Accuracy", and only Magic SOs or Magic/* DO's or TOs would appear, and only those that enhance damage or acc. Both categories would have an "All" like the search window does. This would not only help find the enhancements you want, but make scrolling through Ghost Falcon's lists much easier |
The stores haven't had a revamp in, what, ten issues? When did they add all of the enhancements to store inventory instead of only "Power 10"? Whenever that was. Issue 6? Anyway, that is WAY TOO LONG to go without a revamp, anyway.
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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You appear to assume that an arbitrary name that is completely unique and has nothing to do with the object's effect is part of a "system", and also that an arbitrary icon that is completely /mundane/ and has nothing to do with the object's effect is also part of a system. Neither is the case. Systematic names and images use consistent vocabulary and symbology to convey the information of interest. As it is, the icons and names for DOs and SOs are /not/ consistent with regards to aspect enhanced.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
"Don't use part of the system! Tell me what it is!"
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
I really don't want to homogenize the DOs/SOs. It makes the game lose flavor, which is not what anyone should want to happen.
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Originally Posted by Stormbird
Aesthetically dull, IMO, but w/e.
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Originally Posted by Stormbird
The process is different from just making a bunch of pics for the forum. You could just be a few steps from solving your problem yourself, or it could be a lot harder than you think.
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Originally Posted by Stormbird
Personally I have no problem with the system as it is now. I can find what I need quickly. Yes, I had to learn, but you have to learn everything you do in life unless you're God, so the "shouldn't have to learn" argument is silly and lazy-sounding to me. The only reason I prefer IOs isn't a simpler system but that they don't expire.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
But, hey, don't want people to think or remember anything. No flavor. We should probably replace all the enemy groups with ones that have the same members, same uniforms, same attacks from 1-50 as well. After all, remembering what a group is resistant to, or what they'd do for attacks is probably just too hard for someone out there. Hey, make it easier, get rid of all the extra zones, have everyone line up at one big red button to finish missions. Can't have any variation or flavor, people might have to *remember* something then. That would be just horrible.
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So you favor removing flavor instead of updating the way the store is displayed? Because you quoted my first sentence (homogenizing the enhancements results in the game losing flavor) but not my second sentence (possible solutions that do not make the game lose flavor).|
Originally Posted by Vornotron
Flavor is bad if it obstructs usage. There is a reason Microsoft Bob doesn't rule the world.
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Now, I know I'm putting words in your mouth, but that's what it looks like from this side of the discussion.
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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glad you think that something is easy to do when you don't even know how the programing for the game is. and the only reason new players get aggrivated is because they have come from a game where they know everything and think it is going to be the same way here. if i'm not mistaken, they had to learn everything for the other game to so there is no difference when they come to this game. | but would vastly reduce frustration among new players. |
Bill and i have already said we have no problem with them adding a tag to the enhancement or fixing the mouse over. that is all that needs to be done. and flavor is part of the game. deal with it. you have already been told several times that the enhancements are listed the same exact way in each store so there should be no problem there.
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Please, all that is happening is saving over the graphic files with different files with the same name for the pic. Simple replacement. The probably used PNGs to design them, before coding them for their graphics engine.
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Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
glad you think that something is easy to do when you don't even know how the programing for the game is.
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Actually I'm ignoring the "update the store" suggestion because it's for one thing tangential and for another thing doesn't have any fully coherent solutions yet, at least in this thread (nor do I expect this thread to be a source of such things). Certainly the store could use updating. Certainly, as well, the names of objects could use updating - I suggest putting the enhanced aspect after a colon, and shortening some names, particularly the Tech SOs. But there's one thing that we see all the time for enhancements, and that's the icon, and most dropped and sold enhancements have pretty poor icons: they only really contain two of the three pieces of information required to make decisions about the enhancement, because the colors don't contrast quite well enough even for non-colorblind people. (in order for them to contrast well enough, you'd have to be able to tell in isolation the color with no ambiguities; this isn't true of some of the enhancement colors, but I couldn't tell you which for people with fully trichromatic vision.|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
So you favor removing flavor instead of updating the way the store is displayed? Because you quoted my first sentence (homogenizing the enhancements results in the game losing flavor) but not my second sentence (possible solutions that do not make the game lose flavor).
Now, I know I'm putting words in your mouth, but that's what it looks like from this side of the discussion. |
All this said. I'm all for flavor, if the flavor doesn't get too much in the way. If I were really doing this, as the head of a team of four or five artists with a week or two of time, instead of a programmer banging something together in two hours while deciding what's for dinner, I'd go for the gusto. Enhancements are one of the Big Things in the City, and I'd want to make them really pretty. So here goes:
- Make the enhancement aspect icons a bit bigger, and give them color in themselves. Probably replace a few to increase their shape contrast.
- Replace the "borders" with full-on backings, again with better shape contrast (mutant and magic can sometimes confuse me a bit because they're both a bit bumpy).
- Make the level numbers bigger (at least on small form enhancements) - at high resolutions, the small numbers can be hard to read.
- If I'm feeling really crazy, change the icons of origin-specific enhancements again, with the original aspect icon as inspiration.
And I haven't even called the programmers yet, this is (except perhaps the level numbers thing, and even that's not too bad) entirely a data-side change.
Now let's call the programmers.
- Reduce contrast by some amount on enhancements I can't use - towards grey on foreign ones, towards white on high level ones, towards pale red on low level ones.
- Give enhancements some Shiny Aura or possibly just some Glossy (easier on the graphics card, but you'd need to add another layer to your arts) if they are usable right now to replace or combine with a same-aspect enhancement or slot into an empty space in my grid.
- Add symbols to the level numbers of non-IO enhancements to tell how good they are for your level... suggestions for -4 to +4: minus, half-circle, circle, down-pointing triangle, square, up-pointing triangle, diamond, star, plus.
I could probably think of more, but you get the idea. I don't hate flavor. I hate stuff that gets in the way.
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That looks VERY self-explanatory and nice. I can't Imagine why someone wouldn't like this suggestion. Perhaps I, or someone, should make an "Enhancement Icon Pack" that corrects all the Enhancers to the images on the right.|
Originally Posted by Noxilicious
Here, I made a horrible MS Paint image to illustrate my point:
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/signed to this idea!
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Originally Posted by Noxilicious
I'm using regular IOs. I assume that about everyone on this forum uses them.
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I've got the icons already made as PNGs, used to create the mosaic earlier in the thread. If you know how to make it so, PM me your email and I'll throw you a (2.5MB) zip.
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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
That looks VERY self-explanatory and nice. I can't Imagine why someone wouldn't like this suggestion. Perhaps I, or someone, should make an "Enhancement Icon Pack" that corrects all the Enhancers to the images on the right.
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PM sent. I will contact the person who can, hopefully, make this happen.
I actually have a half set of these completed using TO icons on DO/SO borders.
Victory Wiki
Login Screen changer (OS X/Windows/*nix)
Web based Base designer
SO/DO Enhancement Standardization Pack
CoH Community Mods Installer
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Well then... I may not have to bug Corva about this at all (and not do all the research and renaming and such that I had planned). Do you plan to do the rest and make an installer out of it like you did for Corva's pack?
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Originally Posted by Neo Shadowdream
I actually have a half set of these completed using TO icons on DO/SO borders.
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For enhancements - color, icon, name.
Origin is obvious: the border says "technology" on the left and "science" on the right.
So, tell me what marks identify it as a sleep duration enhancement, other than color, that are not unique specifically to this one enhancement. In addition, tell me what marks, again other than color, identify it as not a slow, or disorient duration, or the other 22 Sci/Tech DOs with the same central icon. (yes, every single sci/tech DO has the same central icon except for Resist Damage)