Stop buffing them Doms.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
It's pretty much that way for all Controller versus Dominator comparisons really. There's no way to get Dominator levels of performance out of the primary, but you do have a secondary powerset that Doms drool over. Doms in general are better at locking stuff down but Controllers still bring a lot to the team.
I'm not a numbers cruncher so forgive me. But does that mean that even if you cap a mind troller's abilities they would still not match up with a mind/dom?
Triumph Lurker: mintmiki 50 emp/archer
basically, if you see a miki on Triumph, it's probably cute and it's probably me.
Huge thanks to cuppamanga and all the folks in the mac help forum for prolonging my borrowed time on this game.
Quote:
What you're seeing is probably a high +recharge MInd/dom. Controllers can have 'critical' controls...the 'overpower' thing...but really can't up the strength of their control powers beyond that. Dominators can get double the magnitude and +50% duration on all controls by activating domination. With high enough recharge, this means a dominator can have up to 3 layers of domination up at a time, without outside buffs. This kind of thing puts the magnitude and duration far beyond controller strengths...but takes a LOT of investment. It's the domination effect you're seeing...that's something you can't get outside the dominator AT. You do have containment for damage, though. |
Originally Posted by mintmiki
I'm not a numbers cruncher so forgive me. But does that mean that even if you cap a mind troller's abilities they would still not match up with a mind/dom?
|
Dominators have an inherent power called "Domination" that allows them to double the magnitude of their mezzes. It works kind of like our "Overpower" ability but is far stronger and they control when they turn it on. The power is on a long recharge and can't be slotted but with sufficient global Recharge they can achieve what is called "perma-dom" mode, which means all of their controls always hit at double the mezz magnitude and will last somewhat longer.
For example, where a Controller's Mass Domination hits for mag 3 with a 15% chance for mag 4, the Dominator consistently hits for Mag 6. This allows Dominators to easily snag bosses with their AoEs that Controllers have only a small chance of locking down in one shot. It also allows them to bust through anti-mezz powers like Clear Mind and Dispersion Bubble that a Controller wouldn't have much chance of getting through.
Some of the Dominators you were dealing with were also probably using the Power Boost power available to many of their secondaries. That power approximately doubles the duration (only) of any controls you use, rather than the mag. Power Boost is available to Controllers as part of the Primal APP, and will considerably boost the effectiveness of your controls by making them last longer.
[EDIT: Too slow, part of your the question was answered above. Also added some additional clarification.]
I don't think you can make a straight up comparison between doms and controllers. Though doms eventually outclass controllers in terms of control given enough recharge, controllers bring other things to the table. Primarily, you have to look at the multiplicative nature of buffs and debuffs. If you have a team of 7 scrappers, do you fill the final slot with a mind/psi dom or mind/kin troller?
Quote:
Noted. But in such circumstances, I daresay the 'Mind' part of the controller would be seeing little to no use. |
Originally Posted by ketch
I don't think you can make a straight up comparison between doms and controllers. Though doms eventually outclass controllers in terms of control given enough recharge, controllers bring other things to the table. Primarily, you have to look at the multiplicative nature of buffs and debuffs. If you have a team of 7 scrappers, do you fill the final slot with a mind/psi dom or mind/kin troller?
|
Thankfully, in most circumstances both doms and controllers are handy. The ITF just happens to be one of those where dominators shine, due to the heavy mez mag needed to lock down mobs of bosses/elite bosses.
Quote:
And that is why a direct comparison can't be made. Controllers offer a great variety of things they can do with their secondary. Sets like Kinetics offer a very different advantage from a set like Forcefields. Doms, on the other hand, are much more consistent in what they have to offer from their secondary.
|
Originally Posted by Seldom
Noted. But in such circumstances, I daresay the 'Mind' part of the controller would be seeing little to no use.
|
Quote:
Another scrapper.
|
Originally Posted by ketch
If you have a team of 7 scrappers, do you fill the final slot with a mind/psi dom or mind/kin troller?
|
They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!
@Starflier
Quote:
Get out of my forum. |
Originally Posted by Starflier
Another scrapper.
|
Quote:
To be fair, only another scrapper is insane enough to play with THAT many egos. |
Originally Posted by ketch
Get out of my forum.
|
Quote:
that many scrappers in a team be would like bunch of scalded cats in a sack :P
|
Originally Posted by Starflier
Another scrapper.
|
I think first you have to realise whether you are comparing a Mind/ Controller with a PermaDom Mind/ Dominator or just a normal Mind/ Dominator.
Then you have to realise that to make a PermaDom Dominator costs a substantial amount of money. So you have to compare it to a Controller who also has a lot of money invested in their enhancements.
If you do all that, the difference is not as big as you probably think.
Not to mention as a Dominator you are giving up a buff/debuff set for an assault set. Personally I always feel a bit naked playing as a Dominator because I'm so used to the buffs and debuffs. On top of that, Mind Control is one of the Control sets that has a good amount of single target attacks, plus can get decent AoE attacks with Terrfiy + EPP. So you have to ask yourself, is losing the buff/debuff really worth it? Especially considered the investment needed to make a PermaDom.
If you are impressed by a mind dom you should see what other perma doms can do that actually have aoe hard control like stalagmites.
I am kinda shocked that no one has mention anything about Siphon Power, Siphon Speed and Fulcrum. That would shoot the Mind controllers dmg through the roof.
Permadom doesn't require that big of an investment, especially for Mind/.
Doms are incredibly powerful, but they're not force multipliers like Controllers.
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Quote:
Controllers, and Dominators are apples, and oranges. I happen to play both AT's. Comparing just the control aspect of the classes really misses all the special nuisances of the AT's. There are controller combos that can do things that dominators can not due to the buff secondary of controllers. Having access to things like radiation, storm, or kinetics brings a lot to the controller. |
Originally Posted by mintmiki
I'm not a numbers cruncher so forgive me. But does that mean that even if you cap a mind troller's abilities they would still not match up with a mind/dom?
|
Also, controllers are a class with a focus on groups, and most villains are self contained. While locking down large groups of mobs is the schtick of the dom that is also the thing they bring to the table. Everyone and their brother can do damage red side. Group buffs are limited to Corruptors, and to a lesser extent Soldiers of Arcanos.
After playing both AT's I can say from my experience the grass isn't greener on either side. Just a different shade.
My Main is a Mind/Kin from way back in I2 long before either set was "cool".
My first Villain was a Mind/Psi Dom back when Drain Psyche was broken and before the general public had any *clue* about how awesome Psi Shockwave was.
I chose those combos because they were fun, and I liked them both all the way from 1-50.
I've since played almost every variety of Mind/ on both sides of the red/blue line (Mind/Elec is a particularly good combo), so I know exactly what you're talking about. The big thing is that they really are Apples and Oranges as mentioned above.
If you're looking to solo or do small groups a Mind/? Dom is just plain awesome. If you're looking to take a so-so team and just make it a steamroller, a Mind/Kin rocks the house. They are both very clicky, very labor intensive, but the Dom is going to be a primary dmg dealer and the Controller is going to be a team force-multiplier. Wen it comes to the TF world, the Dom *does* have a clear advantage, simply because they can put out more control at a higher magnitude than the Controller in the pivotal A/V confrontations. The Controller will get the team through the rest of the TF missions faster though ;-).
I love playing both.
:: tosses two shiny coins in hat ::
Doms walk all over controllers. A mind controller will never be as good as a mind dom sadly. Want a really good mind toon, go with a dom.
I'd say that Mind Doms lock down and control spawns better than controllers when Domination is up or if they're a Perma-Dom.
However, Doms don't get access to buffs/debuffs like Controller's do. So solo I find Mind/* Doms easier than Mind/* Trollers because they can do damage, but depending on the team setting sometimes I want control and buffs/debuffs in one package. The secondary makes a big difference as well.
Quote:
I've got to disagree with this. Controls, even of the duration and magnitude a dominator can put out, are less useful than the buffs and debuffs provided by controllers. By time one can lockdown an AV, the direction of the fight is largely decided; either they are going down smoothly or the team is going to struggle. Add to this the fact that any controller packing a source of -regen is going to make an AV fight going smoother, simply by reducing the amount of damage needed to overtake it.|
Originally Posted by Argentae
Wen it comes to the TF world, the Dom *does* have a clear advantage, simply because they can put out more control at a higher magnitude than the Controller in the pivotal A/V confrontations. The Controller will get the team through the rest of the TF missions faster though ;-).
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Madamme Mayhem
Doms walk all over controllers. A mind controller will never be as good as a mind dom sadly. Want a really good mind toon, go with a dom.
|
Quote:
Tell your mind/psy to solo an AV faster than a mind/rad.|
Originally Posted by Madamme Mayhem
Doms walk all over controllers. A mind controller will never be as good as a mind dom sadly. Want a really good mind toon, go with a dom.
|
Tell your mind/whatever to turn your team into a killing machine like a mind/kin
Tell your mind/anything to buff your team near softcap def like a mind/ff
Compare controller with doms is just stupid.
Dominators does what their AT says... they dominate, hold and blast things, that's it.
Controllers requires more attention to play in order to control the battle to your favor, not only by holding the enemies but by keeping your team alive, or debuffing the enemy.
Dominators walk over controllers? You must be kidding me... no dominator laugh at single target enemies like an Illu/Rad, or fire/rad. No dominator pos PSW nerf can solo 8man spawn faster than a fire/kin, plant/kin.
WARNING!
The post above was made by a brutally honest person. It may contain sarcasm, dark humour, offensive language and typos! Don't lose your time trying to correct my spelling, english is not even my primary language...
My first guide, i15 plant/thorn dominator! Check it. NOW!
Lmao, uh oh.
Quote:
I would imagine much depends on the map; I haven't seen many fire / kins triumphantly solo Carnies. Sometimes, people forget that (perma-)doms have the best mez protection in the game.|
Originally Posted by Panikaze
Dominators walk over controllers? You must be kidding me... no dominator laugh at single target enemies like an Illu/Rad, or fire/rad. No dominator pos PSW nerf can solo 8man spawn faster than a fire/kin, plant/kin.
|
FWIW, fire / kins are the outliers of the controller world; a dom with a random primary / secondary combo is most likely a better soloer than a controller with a random primary / secondary combo.
Me and my little mind/kin troller that could has teamed with a number of mind/doms on ITFs before, and I've noticed there's a huge difference in the strength of their powers over mine. Makes me sad, really. I wonder if there's any way to buff the holds/strengths of a mind troller to be able to even hold a candle to the mind/doms.
Bottom line:
Is there any way to build a mind/kin that can match up with the power of a mind/dom?
Triumph Lurker: mintmiki 50 emp/archer
basically, if you see a miki on Triumph, it's probably cute and it's probably me.
Huge thanks to cuppamanga and all the folks in the mac help forum for prolonging my borrowed time on this game.