All Things Art: Building Edition
By
Agent_117,
Posted on: 2010-05-20 22:01 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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The problem with making the south part an air/space port is that if you look at the city map, there's an east/west waterway between the north end of Steel and the south end of Boomtown... and you can't just pave that over, because that leads to the big lock at the northeast corner of IP, being how the ships get into the harbor. Pave it over and IP dies.
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Originally Posted by Ironik
A couple years back I mentioned I'd like to see Baumton revitalized. Now that we've seen Faultline get the make-over, I think people can more fully appreciate what i was talking about back then. I'd basically divide Boomtown into 5 parts. Keep the back unreclaimed with the usual critters there. Off to the west, have suburban neighborhoods, like we see in Praetoria, where the workers in the area live, full of "starter homes." In the east have the train station hub for all the trains in Paragon. There could be some very cool missions here. (A mission *on* a train!) Just south of that, an airport/spaceport... for the inevitable launch to the Moon Zone.
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"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
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I'm amazed the bridge to baumtown wasn't smashed during the Rikti invasion to cripple water trade.
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Originally Posted by srmalloy
The problem with making the south part an air/space port is that if you look at the city map, there's an east/west waterway between the north end of Steel and the south end of Boomtown... and you can't just pave that over, because that leads to the big lock at the northeast corner of IP, being how the ships get into the harbor. Pave it over and IP dies.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Good point. I'd forgotten that Boomtown and Steel aren't actually next to each other. Okay, forget the Steel part and just put the spaceport in Boomtown. We *need* a spaceport so we can get to the moon.
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Originally Posted by srmalloy
The problem with making the south part an air/space port is that if you look at the city map, there's an east/west waterway between the north end of Steel and the south end of Boomtown... and you can't just pave that over, because that leads to the big lock at the northeast corner of IP, being how the ships get into the harbor. Pave it over and IP dies.
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The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
I would also like to suggest some map tile set ideas, namely more maps that transition into other map types.
This is most notably for the sake of missions where it's mentioned that "X business is a front for Y villain group". so in these cases, perhaps making an office building (or a warehouse) with an elevator that leads into, or transitions into through a door (that could need a key to unlock, maybe even the door being sort of its own glowie), into a tech lab or Council/fifth Column base.
This can also be useful instances of business that also make use of laboratories (offices into tech labs and praet tech labs), or make use of a basement storage facility (office into warehouse), and various combinations of these 'chained' map sets can be used to create many different facilities and break a lot of monotony in instanced maps.
We've already seen this with "office into caves and/or sewers", and a few other map sets already in the game (especially being nicely used in the I:19 blueside arc), and I think more widely implementing it could lead to quite a bit more enjoyment of instanced maps.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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For yet another example of changes to instanced mission maps, in a much more radical way, would be reorganizing them to make a bit more sense in terms of layout and interior, and while Sam and others might fear this can remove desire for exploration, I would like to bring up it's actually contrary, especially in the case of revamped content and possibly AE objective placements and in addition to an earlier post of mine that suggested both destructible and indestructible barricades.
But let's look at the kinds of rooms that one would be able to find in a fifth column, council, Arachnos, or Longbow bases:
-Prisoner Cells (already have them)
-Mess Halls (everyone's gotta eat sometime)
-Bathrooms/showers
-Firing ranges and armories (seen in the Arachnos bases)
-Sleeping/living quarters.
-Supply reception/storage
-Utilities (we may already have these)
And these are just the essentials for most self-contained bases, other rooms can include things like...
-R&D labs (doubly so with the Council and Column bases)
-Recreational rooms
-Officer's Private quarters
-Communications room
-Briefing/debriefing room
-Security office
and this list can go on for quite a ways, and these types of rooms could be designed to improve the bases of four commonly encountered foes.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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So i got into a big long arguement about the virtues and flaws of COH, the map design came up so i thought i'd check and see where this thread had gone, apparently into the graveyard. That is not promising.
So to hopefully restir some thought.
We have these zones and we have named areas in them Blyde Square, the Crescent etc., but what does that really mean? Sometimes they make sense, but many you wouldn't be able to place if named. If each gets a little trinket a little flavor and a little style of it's own, by applying some of the ideas in this thread you could totally change how people look at COH. Aside from some badges what's been done with brickstown and kingrow since the game was created. What makes the crescent the crescent, how did it get that name?
There's a bit of a missed opportunity in the new explore badges. It would have been great to give some zone improvements a little extra depth with the new badges, or give the badges some depth through the zone improvements. Perhaps that opportunity is not wholly lost, perhaps some of the improvements could be built with the local badges in mind.
Roxy On DA...Finally!
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While I agree that more personality can only be a good thing, City of Villains shows us that there is indeed such a thing as TOO MUCH personality. In City of Villains, and especially on Sharkhead Island, every little are is a small self-contained world of something unique. One's a pit, one's a shanty town, one's a little regular town, one's a factory, one's a Freakshow fort and so on and so forth. It looks like the world of the Lemmings, where each continent consists of one single environment and they're all crammed together into a small planet.|
Originally Posted by the_fox_Rox
We have these zones and we have named areas in them Blyde Square, the Crescent etc., but what does that really mean? Sometimes they make sense, but many you wouldn't be able to place if named. If each gets a little trinket a little flavor and a little style of it's own, by applying some of the ideas in this thread you could totally change how people look at COH. Aside from some badges what's been done with brickstown and kingrow since the game was created. What makes the crescent the crescent, how did it get that name?
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Paragon City is indeed generic and indistinguishable, but this gives it a feeling of size that none of the new "island" zones have ever been able to replicate. And indeed, my prediction when Striga came out that new zones would be "Something Island" seems to have come through, with all of Praetoria City being islands. A city is not 5x5 large buildings. A city is miles and miles across, and this needs to come through in game design. You can't just take the design of a large city, reduce the number of buildings in each neighbourhood but keep the same number and diversity of neighbourhoods and present that as an actual city. It feels out of scale and caricature.
I do believe the different zones should have different feels to them, granted, but I don't actually see a specific need to cram what is ostensibly multiple zones in the same one open-world instance. This is why Sharkhead Island's Hell Forge so pales in comparison to Paragon City's Terra Volta.
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Originally Posted by Utopia
I would love neighborhoods. In a second in Necropolis I think, even though it was all run down, there were houses, yards, fences, and even a gas station! I almost crapped a brick at seeing the only gas station in 2 universes!
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You know, when I went to that location, for just a split second I felt like I was playing Half-Life 2, and that's big praise considering that's a game with settings I always believed (it being modelled after my own country probably helps). Or, indeed, like I was playing Left 4 Dead 2, with that adventure that has you trapsing through a riverside town and a sugar mill (Hard Rain, for those who care).
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If I had to point out to a few things that City of Heroes is missing but claimed it had, it would be:
*Apartment building interiors. We have so many apartment buildings, yet on the inside they look either like office buildings or like warehouses.
*Museums. For all the times we go to save a museum, you'd think we'd have a museum tileset. OR, indeed, an actual museum building anywhere in any zone. But no, in Paragon City it's all apartment buildings, tower blocks or warehouses.
*Schools. Not only do we lack a school interior for all those missions where we go to save school children or school supplies, we actually lack both a school interior AND actual schools in the city.
*Fire departments. Apparently, Paragon City's fire department consists of one Fire Chief and a basement full of Positron's fire extinguishers. Where are the fire stations? Where are the fire trucks? Where are THE FIREMEN? Are you telling me they couldn't make a couple of Firemen models, give them fire axes and have them battle the Hellions from time to time?
*Mansions and villas. For all the rich people in the city, we never seem to see the kinds of large estates with secluded gardens and pools and garages stuffed with all forms of expensive cars.
*An airport. We know Paragon City has one, since at different times the Sky Raiders attack a private jet which took off from one and the Knights of Malta shoot down a jet coming in to land at one. So let us run around on the runways. And on something bigger than that dinky two-hangar nothing in Cap Au Diable that has about 50 feet of runway.
*Penthouses. You'd think someone as filthy rich as Countess Crey would own a few of those. You'd think at least the roofs of a few hotels would have that. Which brings me to:
*Hotels. There's nothing that looks like one in the game. There's that brownish office tileset in City of Villains which looks like it could be a hotel, but it has copiers and cubicles in it. Not even St. Martial has a decent-looking hotel, and you'd think that place would absolutely need one.
And that's just off the top of my head.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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::: points to the revised Boomtown map :::
Don't forget the train depot!
I would love a museum interior, as well as more University interiors. In the original Call of Duty, one of my all-time favorite maps was the mansion. That would be great fun in CoH.
I also want apartments and penthouses in lieu of bases for some of my characters. I absolutely despise the "I live in my mom's basement" look of bases, so I avoid them at all costs. I mean, Doom had "windows" back in 1994. Why can't we have windows to at least give the appearance of being in an apartment/penthouse? (The windows are really just monitor screens showing shots of the zones. They don't even have to be live shots, just static ones which change perspective a little as you move around the room.)
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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/signed, Sammy. (can I call you 'sammy'?)|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
If I had to point out to a few things that City of Heroes is missing but claimed it had, it would be:
*Apartment building interiors. We have so many apartment buildings, yet on the inside they look either like office buildings or like warehouses. *Museums. For all the times we go to save a museum, you'd think we'd have a museum tileset. OR, indeed, an actual museum building anywhere in any zone. But no, in Paragon City it's all apartment buildings, tower blocks or warehouses. *Schools. Not only do we lack a school interior for all those missions where we go to save school children or school supplies, we actually lack both a school interior AND actual schools in the city. *Fire departments. Apparently, Paragon City's fire department consists of one Fire Chief and a basement full of Positron's fire extinguishers. Where are the fire stations? Where are the fire trucks? Where are THE FIREMEN? Are you telling me they couldn't make a couple of Firemen models, give them fire axes and have them battle the Hellions from time to time? *Mansions and villas. For all the rich people in the city, we never seem to see the kinds of large estates with secluded gardens and pools and garages stuffed with all forms of expensive cars. *An airport. We know Paragon City has one, since at different times the Sky Raiders attack a private jet which took off from one and the Knights of Malta shoot down a jet coming in to land at one. So let us run around on the runways. And on something bigger than that dinky two-hangar nothing in Cap Au Diable that has about 50 feet of runway. *Penthouses. You'd think someone as filthy rich as Countess Crey would own a few of those. You'd think at least the roofs of a few hotels would have that. Which brings me to: *Hotels. There's nothing that looks like one in the game. There's that brownish office tileset in City of Villains which looks like it could be a hotel, but it has copiers and cubicles in it. Not even St. Martial has a decent-looking hotel, and you'd think that place would absolutely need one. And that's just off the top of my head. |
Especially with hotel and apartment interiors, it's frustrating because we kind of have the basic framework for it already in the game: Those HUGE Arachnos rooms that are worse than the cave cake, the ones that drop down twenty stories and seem to have some kind of reactor in an open coolant vat, and those aren't even THE WHOLE MAP, so many poly count isn't likely to be an issue either.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Some quick idea's (which may have already been suggested.)
A Courthouse. For a mission or event, the steps up to the entrance would be great for a scene of reporters, camera's, press photographers, with news vans with satellite dishes and police cordon below, as a Family mob-boss (or other ne'er-do-well) flanked by lawyers makes his way into/out of court.
We've got bus shelters, but no buses? A bus station for the general public (and buses on the road too.) More varied traffic would look good as well. Taxis, trucks, the odd police or SWAT van (otherwise they only ever seem to be parked up.) An overturned truck that was carrying toxic chemicals (probably Crey Industries) or a Prison bus escape attempt might make the basis of a good event too.
A Chinatown district/zone. Would be great place for the Tsoo to hang out.
A Fire Station. Like Samuel_Tow, I wonder if Paragon City really does rely just on passing heroes to put out all the fires (and rescue cats from trees)?
A Mall or shopping precinct. This I imagine would be a kind of 'open interior' with shop fronts and elevator stairs / glass lifts.
The Intrepid's / The Institution - Union Server Hero / Villain Supergroups
Buses and taxis that pickup and drop off NCPs.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
Neighborhoods in the theme of the gangs that control them.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
For the love of pete, DO something with Boomtown. It's been in a state of 'being repaired...soon...ish' for HOW long now?
Buildings need more variety. And whoever built Praetoria needs to be given free reign to demolish and rebuild existing city zones so they look like, y'know, actual cityscape instead of some random, horribly laid out garbage?
/mini rant
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I believe this is the general idea of the thread. but rather than recycle Praetoria (IN PRIMAL EARTH) David's looking for specific suggestions for the various zones and their architecture styles.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
For the love of pete, DO something with Boomtown. It's been in a state of 'being repaired...soon...ish' for HOW long now?
Buildings need more variety. And whoever built Praetoria needs to be given free reign to demolish and rebuild existing city zones so they look like, y'know, actual cityscape instead of some random, horribly laid out garbage? /mini rant |
A big suggestion for this is to remember that while every zone can sort of have its own style, there's an underlying style to each faction.
Redside uses lots of dark, French Gothic (part of why I don't play redside much, because I HATE Gothic) and while it might be hard to tell, Paragon is supposed to be Art Deco to fit the 'golden age of heroes' thing. I think Praetoria actually uses a mix of industrial and American Imperial.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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It doesn't help that everyone likes to invade Boomtown.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
For the love of pete, DO something with Boomtown. It's been in a state of 'being repaired...soon...ish' for HOW long now?
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How about a fairground? Maybe in Talos or another seaside zone.
I can see it all now 
Ferris wheels, food stands, cages with rikti monkeys inside, Carnies trying to recruit members, clowns and circus performers hanging around and fortune teller machines which could give us fortunes...
Heck why not, throw in a few villain NPCs in there doing the /drink or /eat emote and when you click them make them say something along the lines of "Hey, I'm off duty" or "When's the ride gonna start, the COuntess wants me back in an hour"
Lord Nemesis should have his own styled building interiors. The only base we see is in the Shadow Shard. Hi-tech/science maps don't really match up to his troops style.
There was a Tip mission for an Automaton Factory I got recently which uses the mission map for the Clockwork King's in Synapses Taskforce, which disappointed me when I got into the mission.
Steam coming out of pipes, partly built automatons and jaegers, 'empty' warhulks. Brass plating, elaborately decorated machinery, electrical spheres and sparking cables. Troop barracks and shooting ranges.
Something more suited to the vaunted genius of the this Arch-Villain.
The Intrepid's / The Institution - Union Server Hero / Villain Supergroups
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Ye gods, THIS! ^|
Originally Posted by MiniNukette
Lord Nemesis should have his own styled building interiors. The only base we see is in the Shadow Shard. Hi-tech/science maps don't really match up to his troops style.
There was a Tip mission for an Automaton Factory I got recently which uses the mission map for the Clockwork King's in Synapses Taskforce, which disappointed me when I got into the mission. Steam coming out of pipes, partly built automatons and jaegers, 'empty' warhulks. Brass plating, elaborately decorated machinery, electrical spheres and sparking cables. Troop barracks and shooting ranges. Something more suited to the vaunted genius of the this Arch-Villain. |
If any faction is let down in the map/terrain department then it's Nemesis...
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I would love these kind of messages be in audio/sound when outside in the zone hit! Sound is great immersian... and outside in the zone is not that annoying. |
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
An idea for some flavor; put up on buildings, or perhaps arches over roads some digital alert signs. The kinds used to warn of emergencies and such, except these would put out alerts for in game events. Like the Events channel, but in-game and with perhaps more detail, like "ALERT: VANGUARD REPORTS INCOMING RIKTI INVASION TO THIS CITY ZONE. ALL BASELINE CITIZENS SEEK IMMEDIATE SHELTER. ALL SUPRANORMAL CITIZENS PREPARE FOR ASSAULT." In between events they could show more normal messages, which messages would depend on location.
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Although there will always be someone who is annoyed. But sound fx can be turned off.
hahaha.... Can we get the devs a copy of SimCity, Age of Empires and Black & White 2? Then they suddenly know what you need in a city to make it work. Ever tried to keep civilians happy without a theater or arena? See what happens if you leave out schools? And temples or churches?
Having now seen Praetoria I noticed the warwalls can come down pretty easily with some work. The tech that makes you hit the loading screen blue wall and appear at the same spot on the other side... That is what we need everywhere.
- The Oracle in Cimerora should be reachable outside the ITF like this. YOu can see it. So why not.
- Fly on your own power from Port Oakes to Cap Au Diable!
etc.
- The Italian Job: The Godfather Returns #1151
Beginner - Encounter a renewed age for the Mook and the Family when Emile Marcone escapes from the Zig!
- Along Came a... Bug!? #528482
Average - A new race of aliens arrives on Earth. And Vanguard has you investigate them!
- The Court of the Blood Countess: The Rise of the Blood Countess #3805
Advanced - Go back in time and witness the birth of a vampire. Follow her to key moments in her life in order to stop her! A story of intrigue, drama and horror! Blood & Violence... not recommend to solo!
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I could see this work in CoV, but there are some unique challenges for CoH- creating adeuquate "transition space" so players don't trip into a loading screen. Praetoria has river channels and bridges that you normally wouldn't have to enter and serve as a visual reminder of the zone barriers. Remove the wall and you'd just have continuous city going between Atlas and Perez Park, for example. |
Originally Posted by Liz Bathory
Having now seen Praetoria I noticed the warwalls can come down pretty easily with some work. The tech that makes you hit the loading screen blue wall and appear at the same spot on the other side... That is what we need everywhere.
- The Oracle in Cimerora should be reachable outside the ITF like this. YOu can see it. So why not. - Fly on your own power from Port Oakes to Cap Au Diable! etc. |
... I guess you could have war wall rubble there (if they came down violently) to serve as a marker.... or have the city desginate the area there as no-build parkspace (much like how Toronto designated the high-water-mark of the '77 flood as no-build zones, making an interconnected series of parks following the stream beds through the city) but either way, there are some design challenges....
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I had an idea for that... seems like just a page ago...
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
For the love of pete, DO something with Boomtown. It's been in a state of 'being repaired...soon...ish' for HOW long now?
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The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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I...somehow missed that.|
Originally Posted by Ironik
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...MAKE IT SO!
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I have to agree; to fit with the rest of the style Nemesis shows he really needs bases with a lot of Victorian-industrial style -- painted steel framing with cutaways, dark woods and gingerbready brass ornamentation:|
Originally Posted by MiniNukette
Lord Nemesis should have his own styled building interiors. The only base we see is in the Shadow Shard. Hi-tech/science maps don't really match up to his troops style.
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Lots of dials and gauges and big pipes and throw levers, boilers and fireboxes, flywheels and driving rods and high-pressure steam engines...
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
Bumping my personal favorite of the ATA threads.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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So yea, I would like more realistic stuff. Houses, churches, libraries, schools, gas stations, etc. And more signature buildings, like in Praetoria. When I first entered the second zone, I was blown away at how different things were. More of that please.
P.S. There are a ton of construction projects that are being done in Steel, Skyway, etc. How about finishing those up fella's, you've been at em for years.
I suspect the reason there are so many similar buildings and roadways in Paragon City is because 1) they didn't have enough time to personalize each zone and 2) seven years ago it made sense to re-use art assets in order to reduce the load on both servers and home computers.
A couple years back I mentioned I'd like to see Baumton revitalized. Now that we've seen Faultline get the make-over, I think people can more fully appreciate what i was talking about back then. I'd basically divide Boomtown into 5 parts. Keep the back unreclaimed with the usual critters there. Off to the west, have suburban neighborhoods, like we see in Praetoria, where the workers in the area live, full of "starter homes." In the east have the train station hub for all the trains in Paragon. There could be some very cool missions here. (A mission *on* a train!) Just south of that, an airport/spaceport... for the inevitable launch to the Moon Zone.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction