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I actually specifically asked the devs about this at the EU meet-and-greet on Union, and whether a fully-IO'd out toon would be able to run the Incarnate content at a comparable level. They refused to give out the goodies though. |
Originally Posted by xhris
Devs announce an end-game system. But, what is the need for it? We can already soft-cap our builds using IOs and take on AVs and GMs. Do the devs really wants us to solo Hami and mother ship? I think not. Then, why adding the incarnate system? Why do we need more power?
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~union4lyfe~
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I believe the quote was something like "You'll need it." which is an oblique way of saying there will be content specifically for the Incarnates.
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xhris wonders: Devs announce an end-game system. But, what is the need for it? We can already soft-cap our builds using IOs and take on AVs and GMs. Do the devs really wants us to solo Hami and mother ship? I think not. Then, why adding the incarnate system? Why do we need more power? |
Dec out.
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That's what I'm saying. A Storm is Coming...
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Originally Posted by Decorum
I believe the quote was something like "You'll need it." which is an oblique way of saying there will be content specifically for the Incarnates.
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What has been said about Incarnates is simply this...
They are raising the level cap and using different words as to not have as many people freak out that they are doing so.
Now you can go on your rant about that...
I just hope I won't need to be overpowered or on a team of 25 in order to so much as sniff the Incarnate system. That would piss me off like you wouldn't believe.
Remember, a lot of people have said over the years that they're here because City of Heroes is not WoW and is not chock-full of mandatory grind-raids as the only sort of end game available. I sincerely hope the developers don't double-back on that aspect of it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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And if they do, there's still the stuff 50s were doing before. Might be irritating if you already bought GR specifically for Incarnates, but then caveat emptor early buyers.
Dec out.
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No, they are not raising the level cap. When you gain a level by earning enough experience points, the values of your powers increase and you either gain more power picks or power slots, according to your level. You outlevel your TO/DO/SO enhancements, as well as your contacts. Your enemies con blue/green/gray and you get additional market/inspiration slots.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
What has been said about Incarnates is simply this...
They are raising the level cap and using different words as to not have as many people freak out that they are doing so. Now you can go on your rant about that... |
What the devs said was that you gain NEW powers (not powers from your primary/secondary/epic/patron power pools) and that Incarnate levels are tied to the game's story and cannot be earned with experience points.
Normal levels and Incarnate levels are two entirely different things, similar to how different earning a temp power from an arc and getting stamina at lv20 is.
Also, this thread is about the story behind Incarnate levels. If you are interested in discussing the game mechanics, you can always open a new thread. Thank you.
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Apparently you didn't read your own post...|
Originally Posted by xhris
No, they are not raising the level cap. When you gain a level by earning enough experience points, the values of your powers increase and you either gain more power picks or power slots according to your levels. You outlevel your TO/DO/SO enhancements, as well as your contacts. Your enemies con blue/green/gray and you get market/inspiration slots.
What the devs said was that you gain NEW powers (not powers from your primary/secondary/epic/patron power pools) and that Incarnate levels are tied to the game's story and cannot be earned with experience points. Normal levels and Incarnate levels are two entirely different things, similar to how different earning a temp power from an arc and getting stamina at lv20 is. Also, this thread is about the story behind Incarnate levels. If you are interested in discussing the game mechanics, you can always open a new thread. Thank you. |
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Originally Posted by xhris
Devs announce an end-game system. But, what is the need for it? We can already soft-cap our builds using IOs and take on AVs and GMs. Do the devs really wants us to solo Hami and mother ship? I think not. Then, why adding the incarnate system? Why do we need more power?
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You know, there's only so much that "if you don't like it, don't use it" can cover. Over half of the expansion is pretty much this. And it's not just a question of money. This is where so much of their development time and budget has been going for, what? The past year? Only for me to get told that I'm not cool enough to participate?|
Originally Posted by Decorum
And if they do, there's still the stuff 50s were doing before. Might be irritating if you already bought GR specifically for Incarnates, but then caveat emptor early buyers.
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No. That's not going to work. They're going to have to come up with a solo way to progress through this. It doesn't have to be as fast, it doesn't have to be as easy, but it HAS to exist.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I hope they do, too, Sam. Because of my odd play times, I usually solo myself. I'll accept it if there isn't, because I'm not getting GR just for Incarnates, but I'd much prefer the option.
Dec out.
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And you read only halve of it. What I'm saying is that there is no reason YET for this system. What I believe is that issue 19 will give us a reson: Coming Storm, a task much more difficult than anything else we've experienced. Hami won't be the game's hardest task, Coming Storm will be. If you disagree with me, fine, that's why I started this thread. You are welcome to post your own theories about what requires the implementation of the system (story-wise).|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Apparently you didn't read your own post...
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| However the Incarnate system works it is just a system for leveling beyond 50. It is raising the level cap. The only difference is they are using a different mechanic and linking it directly to story. Both of which has been done in other games for leveling systems. If you want to not call it raising the level the cap, good for you, but that doesn't change the fact of what it is which is levels beyond lvl 50 which by definition is a raise of the level cap. |
Also, all replies so far are off-topic.The thread is about the system story-wise. If you're into Doom-posting you can always open a new thread by clicking the "New Thread" button.
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You are comparing temp powers to permanent powers connected to a thing called a level. If you want to not call it raising the level cap that's fine, delude yourself all you want.|
Originally Posted by xhris
If you even bothered reading my post, you wouldn't post the same things twice. So, if the devs gave a Taser dart temp power to all 50s would that be raising the level cap? My lv50 crafted a Recovery Serum temp power the other day. He didn't DING!...weird.. Gaining a new power is not gaining a new level. Doing a banner raid gives you a temp power. Still no DING! The leveling system of the game never included gaining NEW powers. It wasn't tied to the game's story either. If a new arc is featured, where you travel to the Well of the Furies and gain a new power from a list of powers including Zeu's Ligtning, Poseidon's Trident and Hephaustus' Hammer, would that considered gaining a level? You didn't get a power slot, you didn't select a power from your primary/secondary pools. Your Sting of the Wasp still does 94,2 unenhanced damage, because that's how much it does when used by a level 50 scrapper. You are still level 50.
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Also, noone is "doom-posting" they read your post and followed the natural course of answering your question that you put forth. That's how people write, the first paragraph is an introduction unless you are listing things...
As far as the story line goes...I would hope it wouldn't have anything to do with the coming storm as that has to do with aliens, unless the aliens are somehow a advanced human culture that traveled back in time and across dimension to establish peace in a "wild world" which could have happened if the Preatorians lives a hundred or so years into their future.
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I don't think there needs to be a conceptual reason for giving us the ability to become more powerful. If anything, "Incarnates" are a convenient excuse to add the kind of system people have been yelling for since the beginning of time. Yes, it'd be nice to have everything wrapped up in a nice, convenient explanation, but given what they've done with The Origin of Powers story arc, I dare say this is sometimes more trouble than it's worth.|
Originally Posted by xhris
And you read only halve of it. What I'm saying is that there is no reason YET for this system. What I believe is that issue 19 will give us a reson: Coming Storm, a task much more difficult than anything else we've experienced. Hami won't be the game's hardest task, Coming Storm will be. If you disagree with me, fine, that's why I started this thread. You are welcome to post your own theories about what requires the implementation of the system (story-wise).
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I'd say the story could easily be as simple as, to quote Yahtzee, "Magic ball give super powers, everyone want magic ball, go get magic ball, psychic trash robots" and people would still be lining up to the Incarnate distribution pavilion like the folks from Cannon Fodder 2. Having a storyline explanation as to what this power is is not necessary, as leaving it as some amorphous "hidden power" nonsense would give people more creative freedom than, say, Patron Powerpools. I'm not saying it's bad to have it, just that we don't necessarily need it. Having a storyline explanation of how you get the thing, as apparently it won't "just come naturally" does make sense, as it would explain the specific tasks involved in acquiring the power of the Incarnates. I still want to see it obtainable just by running more missions after 50, but I can understand if special circumstances are necessary.
Having an explanation of why you would want it, however, is not only unnecessary, it's actually a really bad idea. People's motivations are their own, and whether they want the power so they can fight the Hamidon, Lufgebu, the Coming Storm or the Common Cold is up to them. And if they want to use the power of the gods to make divine pies and delicious cookies, then more power to them.
Again, I'd like to see the powers of the Incarnates not so much earned by participating in a special, grindy event as UNLOCKED by said participation similar to how you gain the ability to earn Vanguard Merits by joining the organisation. As such, I'd like to see the Incarnates' explanation go as far as giving us means of unlocking the powers, but then allowing us to develop them in our own ways, should we choose to disregard its supposedly forced teaming content.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Did you ding? Did your power stats increase? Did you get more market/inspiration slots? Did you outlevel your contacts and enhancements? Did you get more power slots/powerpicks from your primary/secondary/epic/patron power pools? Did you gain any experience points? If the answer to all above questions is "no", than I'm afraid you didn't gain any more levels. You're still 50.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
You are comparing temp powers to permanent powers connected to a thing called a level. If you want to not call it raising the level cap that's fine, delude yourself all you want.
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Picking a new power,a power not existing in your other powerpools is not gaining a level.
When you become level 10/20/30/40/50 you get a badge. So, according to your logic, every badge equals a level, right? OH NOES, issue 17 raised the level cap to 700.
Some Day Jobs give new powers which require charging. Log out in the same location and they'll practicaly become permanent. Did Day Jobs raise the level cap?
Yes, the new incarnate system makes you stronger. So do IOs. Neither of them raises the level cap to do so. Incarnate levels give you new powers, IO sets give you procs and set bonuses.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I don't think there needs to be a conceptual reason for giving us the ability to become more powerful. If anything, "Incarnates" are a convenient excuse to add the kind of system people have been yelling for since the beginning of time. Yes, it'd be nice to have everything wrapped up in a nice, convenient explanation, but given what they've done with The Origin of Powers story arc, I dare say this is sometimes more trouble than it's worth.
I'd say the story could easily be as simple as, to quote Yahtzee, "Magic ball give super powers, everyone want magic ball, go get magic ball, psychic trash robots" and people would still be lining up to the Incarnate distribution pavilion like the folks from Cannon Fodder 2. Having a storyline explanation as to what this power is is not necessary, as leaving it as some amorphous "hidden power" nonsense would give people more creative freedom than, say, Patron Powerpools. I'm not saying it's bad to have it, just that we don't necessarily need it. Having a storyline explanation of how you get the thing, as apparently it won't "just come naturally" does make sense, as it would explain the specific tasks involved in acquiring the power of the Incarnates. I still want to see it obtainable just by running more missions after 50, but I can understand if special circumstances are necessary. Having an explanation of why you would want it, however, is not only unnecessary, it's actually a really bad idea. People's motivations are their own, and whether they want the power so they can fight the Hamidon, Lufgebu, the Coming Storm or the Common Cold is up to them. And if they want to use the power of the gods to make divine pies and delicious cookies, then more power to them. Again, I'd like to see the powers of the Incarnates not so much earned by participating in a special, grindy event as UNLOCKED by said participation similar to how you gain the ability to earn Vanguard Merits by joining the organisation. As such, I'd like to see the Incarnates' explanation go as far as giving us means of unlocking the powers, but then allowing us to develop them in our own ways, should we choose to disregard its supposedly forced teaming content. |
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We don't even know HOW this power would be gained, but let's go along with your idea. Why didn't I hunt down the Well of the Furies earlier? Because I didn't know where it was. "Didn't," as in past simple. I didn't know where it was, I do now. How did I find out? Who cares? Maybe I searched the globe until I stumbled upon it, maybe I'm psychic and I just "knew" where it was, maybe I'm a space alien who can sense godlike powers. Or maybe, just maybe, it was common knowledge before I even came to this world, as it's going to happen with any character created after Going Rogue launches.|
Originally Posted by xhris
Actually an explanation would be necessary IMO. How would it be possible to gain powers you don't own? Well of the Furies? Well, if you knew where the well is, why didn't you drink from it earlier? Because you don't know where it is, that's it. The mysterious letter-sender comes to visit you for the first time and makes you an offer you cannot refuse: Power. You decide to join his cause, along with Protean and Ajax, to fight the coming storm. Sure, some double-crossing/back-stabbing action would be nice but highly unlikely, as it's a common comic cliche that heroes and villains put their interests aside and join forces to protect the Earth/Universe/lolcats/etc from destruction.
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I not only do I not need to be given an explanation as to why I'd want the power of the Incarnates, I don't WANT an explanation as to why I'd be going after it. It would be incredibly and unbelievably railroading if the game tried to pull the old "you think/you feel" trick, especially since the developers appear to have learned their lesson from CoV, if the new content is any indication.
And, to be completely honest, I am SICK AND TIRED of heroes and villains joining together to fight a common thread. Sick and tired of it like you wouldn't believe. We join together to fight the Rikti, then we join together to fight Imperious, then we join together to fight the Coming Storm, then we join together to go shopping for holiday gifts, and before long, people are asking what the point of contacts warning us not to fight among ourselves is if we've been doing everything since 2009 together like best buddies. There's no point in having heroes and villain to begin with if all you'll have them do is join forces to fight something else all the time. It's a cheap, unappealing comic book kludge that shouldn't be used very often and definitely shouldn't be used for all the biggest threats. Not only is it silly, I'm getting tired of my world-destroying villains getting roped into saving the world over and over again.
And please, stop trying to tell me what I know, what I can do and what I want. These are RP arguments, and by their very definition, RP arguments are unwinnable. The best thing they can do is let us pick our own reasons and motivations.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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(Note: what I am quoting is just a partial post, I am only dealing with this aspect of it.)|
Originally Posted by Durakken
You are comparing temp powers to permanent powers connected to a thing called a level. If you want to not call it raising the level cap that's fine, delude yourself all you want.
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I will agree with you about this being a level cap raise if the following things are true:
- We gain these Incarnate Levels through ExP gain.
- MOBs will Con differently to us when we have gained them.
- We will gain new Power picks from our Powersets.
- We will gain new enhancement Slots for our existing Powers.
- People using the SSK beneath us will be affected by them.
- Enhancements will go stale when we gain them.
- Contacts will be outleveled when we gain them.
That's what gaining Levels in CoX entails.
If the Incarnate Levels do not do this, then they are not the same.
If they are not the same, they are not merely an extension of the current system.
...which is what a level cap bump would be.
In short, if an Incarnate Level isn't the same as a Character Level, than it's different. Really.
"Strength of numbers is the delight of the timid. The valiant in spirit glory in fighting alone."
- Mahatma Gandhi
Still CoHzy after all these years...
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Doubt it's the Coming Storm that lead the devs to state that we'll need the increased power at the EU pocket D event. Doubt it as the coming storm isn't coming soon... |
Originally Posted by xhris
What I'm saying is that there is no reason YET for this system. What I believe is that issue 19 will give us a reson: Coming Storm, a task much more difficult than anything else we've experienced. Hami won't be the game's hardest task, Coming Storm will be. If you disagree with me, fine, that's why I started this thread.
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These excerpts from my chatlog of the 6th-anniversary EU event (28th April 2010 pocket D on EU test, times GMT+1):
On the Coming but not yet Storm...
17:56:11 Judgement Dave: BTW are we going to see anything of that Coming Storm in the next 2 or 3 issues... or was the long range forecast as reliable as Michael Fish??
17:56:39 Ellie Mintal: The 'Experiecing Some Delays' Storm.
17:56:58 War Witch: Dangit, Ellie, you took my line.
17:57:05 Boudicea: A Compaies idea of 'soon' and a real persons are very different. i've learned that much in various jobs
17:57:27 War Witch: So true, Boudicea....
If it was noted that I'd asked about the next 2 or 3 issues then th ereply would seem to suggest that it's going to be a while longer til we see the storm arrive... Maybe we need to throw some more squids on the fire.
On becoming MOAR powerful...
18:10:52 Positron: I19 is all about making your level 50 moar powerful
18:11:35 Castle: You'll NEED to be more powerful, too, by the way.
18:12:41 Sanguine Rose: Aye, Incarnates, are they like the Ancilleries crossed with patrons or somesuch?
18:13:21 Castle: Sanguine Rose: We can't talk much about Incarnates, but it is a completely new system.
18:13:36 Positron: Cant give too much detail on Incarnate... you will be moar powerful, and you will NEED to be moar powerful to get even moar moar powerful.
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
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Actually I agree with you completely. I agreed with your previous post, too. Maybe my reply wasn't clear enough, but what I was trying to say was that I'm tired of the whole heroes and villains team together, too. I do believe RP arguments are trash. However, this is a game, not Second Life. You don't get MOAR powerful for the sake of being MOAR powerful. There need to be a story behind it. It's not what I want, it's just what makes sense with the course of the game. You say you hate how the game forces you to make decisions your character wouldn't normally do. Come play redside. Become a villain, just to be Recluse's *****, hell, everyone's *****. you don't do bad things, you run other people errands. So, yes, devs do take decisions which don't fit with all characters concept-wise, but tailoring the experience for each character is just impossible. The next closest thing is to find a reason that applies to most concepts, which, IMO is world's destruction. After all how many emo toons with a death-wish do you see running around? Is it a stupid cliche? Hell, yes, it is. Is there any other way? That's the point of this thread.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
We don't even know HOW this power would be gained, but let's go along with your idea. Why didn't I hunt down the Well of the Furies earlier? Because I didn't know where it was. "Didn't," as in past simple. I didn't know where it was, I do now. How did I find out? Who cares? Maybe I searched the globe until I stumbled upon it, maybe I'm psychic and I just "knew" where it was, maybe I'm a space alien who can sense godlike powers. Or maybe, just maybe, it was common knowledge before I even came to this world, as it's going to happen with any character created after Going Rogue launches.
I not only do I not need to be given an explanation as to why I'd want the power of the Incarnates, I don't WANT an explanation as to why I'd be going after it. It would be incredibly and unbelievably railroading if the game tried to pull the old "you think/you feel" trick, especially since the developers appear to have learned their lesson from CoV, if the new content is any indication. And, to be completely honest, I am SICK AND TIRED of heroes and villains joining together to fight a common thread. Sick and tired of it like you wouldn't believe. We join together to fight the Rikti, then we join together to fight Imperious, then we join together to fight the Coming Storm, then we join together to go shopping for holiday gifts, and before long, people are asking what the point of contacts warning us not to fight among ourselves is if we've been doing everything since 2009 together like best buddies. There's no point in having heroes and villain to begin with if all you'll have them do is join forces to fight something else all the time. It's a cheap, unappealing comic book kludge that shouldn't be used very often and definitely shouldn't be used for all the biggest threats. Not only is it silly, I'm getting tired of my world-destroying villains getting roped into saving the world over and over again. And please, stop trying to tell me what I know, what I can do and what I want. These are RP arguments, and by their very definition, RP arguments are unwinnable. The best thing they can do is let us pick our own reasons and motivations. |
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I believe they also mentioned much harder content will be coming |
Originally Posted by Decorum
I believe the quote was something like "You'll need it." which is an oblique way of saying there will be content specifically for the Incarnates.
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Like Underworld? Then take a look at! http://moonid.net/account/recruitmen.../monstersgame/
And don't forget to join the fight for our City! http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index....ard,134.0.html
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I am hoping that the developers have a somewhat long term plan for this. If you want to see some ridiculous MMORPG power-creep in story terms, take a look at Everquest. The very deities who populated the world and are the font of power for divine magics aren't even farmed as a joke any longer because they're so much weaker than the characters.|
Originally Posted by xhris
Devs announce an end-game system. But, what is the need for it? We can already soft-cap our builds using IOs and take on AVs and GMs. Do the devs really wants us to solo Hami and mother ship? I think not. Then, why adding the incarnate system? Why do we need more power?
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Luckily, the comic milieu helps this somewhat and the game mechanics (such as forced deleveling on task forces) keep it down some as well. But, yeah, I'd hate to see the days of soloing motherships and Hami.
I don't think/hope Sam will have much to worry about as I believe the Devs wouldn't make the mistake of making the end game content only accessible to teams - CoH has built a reputation on its solo friendly gameplay after all.
However I'm pretty sure there will things to do for teams as well, such as the mentioned new zone events, and probably new TFs.
And yes, I don't agree those should be soloable, the game is still an MMO - there needs to be some incentive for people to actually play together (just not the crucial stuff like the Incarnates system).
Like Underworld? Then take a look at! http://moonid.net/account/recruitmen.../monstersgame/
And don't forget to join the fight for our City! http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index....ard,134.0.html
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Do you realise you're quoting something that is almost universally derided as an argument for your case? "Come play City of Villains. It sucks!" is hardly an argument that will convince me to support more of this. If anything, City of Villains should be a lesson in how NOT to do thing. Honestly, from everything I've heard of the CoV railroading storyline, responses tend to vary between "I hate it!" and "Eh, it's not too bad." but I have never, ever heard anyone come out and say "By golly! The way City of Villains is structured is GRRRATE!" Ever. You REALLY do not want to bring CoV up as backing for your argument.|
Originally Posted by xhris
However, this is a game, not Second Life. You don't get MOAR powerful for the sake of being MOAR powerful. There need to be a story behind it. It's not what I want, it's just what makes sense with the course of the game. You say you hate how the game forces you to make decisions your character wouldn't normally do. Come play redside. Become a villain, just to be Recluse's *****, hell, everyone's *****. you don't do bad things, you run other people errands. So, yes, devs do take decisions which don't fit with all characters concept-wise, but tailoring the experience for each character is just impossible. The next closest thing is to find a reason that applies to most concepts, which, IMO is world's destruction. After all how many emo toons with a death-wish do you see running around? Is it a stupid cliche? Hell, yes, it is. Is there any other way? That's the point of this thread.
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Furthermore, come play City of Heroes and tell me what the "goal" of getting more powerful is, aside from the reaching a state of being more powerful. There isn't one overriding, overall storyline for the whole game from 1 to 50, and to be honest, all the better for it. As you said, tailoring the game to be unique for every individual player is impossible, so you simply don't tailor the game to the players. You present them with a persistent world within which they follow a variety of unconnected, though cross-referencing storylines and let people make up their own motivation for why they keep on fighting.
To try and tell people "THIS is what you're fighting!" is just incredibly bad form, and I'd have thought City of Villains burned us all hard enough to teach us to know better. Seriously. We don't need the game to tell us why we want to get stronger. That's what the Description field is for.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I disagree. I think that you will be practically forced to team for the Incarnate system/content. Every end game system has this to a degree, and most heavily favour forced teaming. As solo-friendly as CoH is, not all of of that was by design; a lot of stuff the devs really didn't want people soloing.|
Originally Posted by Knightslayer
I believe the Devs wouldn't make the mistake of making the end game content only accessible to teams - CoH has built a reputation on its solo friendly gameplay after all.
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I think it will be possible in theory to earn your Incarnate levels or whatever solo, but they'll make it impractical or annoyingly hard to do so. I anticipate at best something like Rikti mothership raids where technically you don't have to be teamed, but you'll still need a bunch of other people to show up.
That's what I honestly expect. I don't like it but I'm trying to think of it like an epic quest:
The hero descending into the underworld to retrieve great power in order to save the day.
After all... Hell, as they say, is other people.
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Devs announced an end-game system. But, what is the need for it? We can already soft-cap our builds using IOs and take on AVs and GMs. Do the devs really wants us to solo Hami and mother ship? I think not. Then, why adding the incarnate system? Why do we need more power?
Issue 17 and doppelganger arcs hit live. We receive a letter from our time-traveling Ouroboros-hating friend; a mysterious figure who hid his face, as Dean MacAryhur says. He is recruiting new members. This is the first time he contacts us in our time and reality.
We found letters in the past, the future, even in Cimerora. But never here, in our time. Is he coming for us? Does he want to recruit us? Do we need to get more powerful to stand a chance against the Coming Storm?
But, Ouroboros is watching, he can't come here. Then again, we gain the first Incarnate level in Praetoria, an alternative reality. He has access to it ("Have you ever met Praetorian Earth Requiem?"). So, the question is: Is a Storm Coming with issue 19??