Incarnates

To be fair, all of the actual end-game content we have is forced teaming, that much I will agree, but the rewards generated from most of it are not actually exclusive to that content. Granted, Hamidon enhancements are, but more regular Inventions can match them blow for blow in a lot of cases, and those are available to solo players, as well, either through random drops or through Merits earnable via story arcs. Do Ouro story arcs grant Merits, by the way? And purple recipes ostensibly only drop off solo-compatible activity, which is to say killing things at level 47+. Even the Mothership Raid, as large-scale as that is, still provides a resource that's obtainable otherwise via defeating Rikti and completing War Zone missions.

I'm well aware that our developers are always looking for new and creative ways to subtly force teaming down our throats, but so far they've been pretty cool about giving us a back door to the rewards generated by "epic" content, if not to the content itself.

That said, I'm not in the slightest safe in the knowledge that this is what Incarnate levels are going to be. I am deathly afraid that the new Incarnate content is going to be WoW-style raids all the way, solely and only, and that my complaints will essentially be rebuffed. I'm most afraid because I don't really want to have to look for another game to play.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Things have gotten better. Before reward merits though, you pretty much had to team or work much harder to get drops or enough Inf to bid on stuff. Given the fickle nature of the market then and now, I think more people are utilizing IOs since than advent of merits than before.

I expect that if the Incarnate content is too hard and too WoW-raidy, it'll be rejected by most of the players. Honestly, do you see people lined up to run STFs every night? Hami raids and simply not done as frequently as you see with similar stuff in WoW. Players here like casual, and they have no problem rejecting what they don't like.

The problem is that when that is the case, it'll be a while before it gets fixed. The turn-around time in fixing content people don't like is abysmal. Positron TF, 'nuff said.
TFs and raids NEVER get tested properly before going live. They can't be. Most of them are popular while they're new, but you can't judge staying power on Test. One would have expected the STF to be very popular, yet I'll wager Statesman is standing alone on his little boat right now on most of the servers.

If the Incarnate system is too hard or annoying, it won't get fixed until after it's been live for a while (if at all) and the damage is done. The devs say they aim high in terms of difficulty and then ratchet it down from there. But like I said, by that time the damage is done. First impressions are utterly important. Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for them to ratchet the i15 TF down to a point where people want to run it, instead of just running an ITF, which admittedly is much less of a headache to organize and get people interested in doing.


.

My problem here is that they've been trumpeting how hard the new content is going to be like that's a good thing. To quote Yahtzee (yet again): "Bread goes hard if you leave it on the sidewalk long enough, but that's hardly an improvement." I'm just afraid WoW-style raids IS what they're aiming for, why I don't know, and like you said, if it's rejected by a meaningful portion of the playerbase, it won't be altered until people like me no longer care. I dare say the reaction to the system with Going Rogue is not going to matter, because any changed made to it will count down from I19 onward.

And while I admit this is not giving the development enough credit in the face of all the cool things they've done because we asked them to, this particular instance IS NOT one where developer ideas match my own very often.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Now I'm just confused. When did I say that this is what I want? When did I say that I would be happy if the devs tied the incarnate system to a story so restrictive that only a couple of concepts could relate to? Seriously quote one of my previous post or something.
What I DID say was that I AGREE with you. I do agree that having my villain team up with as hero yet again would bug mew to no end. I don't another CoV. While the content is better than blueside, it's too restrictive concept-wise.

I'm not describing how I would like the incarnate system to be. FYI this is not the Suggestions forum. What I'm saying is that there is absolutely no chance that devs won't bind it to some ingame story, whether we like it or not. I would hate it if the content really plays out to be Coming Storm with moar hero-villain teaming. My opening post was a realistic point of view, judging by resent additions to the game, not my personal preferences. I created this thread, because I wanted to hear other people's theories, REALISTIC theories, not suggestions. A firefighter toon would like to gain additional powers by rescuing cats stuck on trees, but what are the chances that this would be what the incarnate system is about? You are most welcome to suggest a Shivan invasion, the return of Rularuu, a Rikti invasion, anything that has a chance to happen. Does the Coming Storm has a chance to hit live anyime soon? Yes, it does. Do I want this to happen? Not so much; it would depend on how they implemented it. It is apparent that you want a story that every concept can rely to. Well, if you can think of such a thing while still staying true to this game's canon, then you would be my internet hero.

Also, you give me the impression that you never actually played the game and only pay the subscription just to be able to post in the forums. How much content do you run into in game with a great degree of customization for each character's concept? One of my toons is an angel, yet I don't go berserk and demand pacifist contect and picking-daises experience points. That's what being realistic is all about. This game has everything, from supermen to catgirls. This degree of diversity makes it impossible to create content that would satisfy everyone's needs. You can't have an alien invasion and mice-chasing action in the same game. According to your logic even Praetoria was a bad choice. Some concepts would prefer a carnival of doom, so evil that your perception over reality is twisted, black becomes white and white becomes black. It would fit with the jester pants, too. You said side-switching was not something you wanted anyway. Really? So you're happy with binding specific ATs and powersets to one's morale?

It appears you play WoW. When was the last time that CoH followed the WoW route? Fortunately, I can't find many similarities between the two games. However, the moment end-game content is announced, hell breaks loose and screams of DOOOOOOM echo everywhere. We know NOTHING about it. Wait for more information and keep wild speculations about the system's mechanics to a minimum. It makes no sense for an end-game content we've been waiting for 6 years to be a cheap WoW rip-off. Yes, WoW is popular, but it's hardly the MMO bible or anything. CoH predates WoW, why would it need to rip it off? CoH introduced the superhero MMO genre; WoW is the EC-rated version of Diablo. This game stayed original for 6 years introducing one innovative feature after another, while WoW was raising the level cap. Sadly, people see its strengths as weaknesses. Its unlimited character creation possibilities are used as an argument to shoot down every newly implemented content, while deifying a blue/green coloured kindergarten filled with elves and orcs.

I think it's more likely that you'd need to be "overpowered or on a team of 25" to complete the Incarnate content, than that you need it to earn the Incarnate levels. If it wasn't hard, why do you need more power? And if you don't have the extra power, why does it need to be extra hard? That's my view, at any rate; it's like normal leveling: you do normal stuff to gain more power, so that you can achieve the harder stuff.

Where x = 10.

I suspect you and I will be standing on the sidelines watching others who enjoy teaming as they become gods with shiny new powers. There is no way they will make it where my emp/rad defender will be able to solo any content that will allow her to earn Incarnate levels. She can't even get badges for such things as the Kronos titan without being on a team. But she can be one of 25 attacking Lusca and get the rewards.

Lusca is the exception to the rule. You can't even get the roman costume without teaming. It is not going to be solo friendly, as much as we would like it to be. I'll be amazed if it is. We are in the minority and always will be. So don't get your hopes up. I'm not.

Did you read page one in this thread?... lol.

Some people don't see anything wrong with that. They think people who enjoy the company of others deserve more than people who don't.

I missed the part on the subscription page where soloists enjoy a smaller subscription fee because they get less content. While all content can be done by teams, there's special content set aside for teams, but not special content only solo players can do. That would be a silly and unacceptable use of resources, but the opposite bias is acceptable? It shouldn't be.

-I'm for content that encourages teaming by increased rate or earning rewards. Having an XP/Inf/drop bonus for teams, yes.

-I'm half way on content that requires "loose teaming" like Rikti mothership raids, GM battles in public areas.

-I'm 100% against forced "team only" content in any form. I don't think TFs are the best way to tell a story, or enjoy the game for that matter. Content I'm not allowed to experience solo, no.

Beyond simple preference for other people's company or not, there's also conceptual and character expression issues. Not every hero is a "joiner" and a lot of the kind of content that's currently reserved for only groups, like fighting giant monsters and robots (Kronos, Babbage I'm looking at you), is valid "solo content" in comics for many super heroes (and while I'm sure some builds could maybe solo a GM, in comics it's not a question of outlier power sets and broken builds).



.

Where x=infinity.
What was it said. Issue 19 would have incarnates 2-10. Didn't say there wouldn't be more later. I think it would be a fine alternative way to unlock add new things. Including incarnates the list is booster packs, vet rewards, and just giving it to us.

Not sure there are a bunch of threads like this. :P

Just about any mission in City of Heroes is applicable to just about any character concept that tries it. The missions give you objectives to accomplish, but do not try to tell you WHY you are accomplishing them. So zombies are kidnapping people to cut them up for parts. So? Who gives a crap? Well, my character does, because he can't see innocents hurt while evil men triumph. My other character does, too, because she sees herself as a genuine super hero and feels it is her duty to save people in trouble. My other character does, too, because he's in the business of developing crime prevention technology and applying it himself is good publicity. So does my other character, because the city pays her bills in return. And so does my other character, for no reason whatsoever.

The game tells me WHAT to do. It's up to me to decide WHY I want to do it. You can talk me in circles all day, but this is not going to change. The moment the game tells me "you want to get stronger because..." I'm going to balk. On the spot. Things like "The voices tell you to smash!" or "You hate the smell of Carnival of Shadows!" are BAD WRITING.

You are asking for a reason as to why we want the power of the Incarnates. I'm telling you that I don't need the game to give me this reason, because I can make up my own. I don't mind the feature itself written into a particular storyline, I don't even mind having a specific story related to HOW I'm getting the power. I won't necessarily like it, but I can deal with it, provided the power doesn't come with a non-removable label saying "Power of the Incarnate: This is not yours!" It's the old Epics vs. Patrons debate. Epics are my powers MINE MINE MINE, whereas Patrons are other people's powers that I just borrow. AGGRAVATING! And it wouldn't be half as bad if the game didn't assume I wanted their powers because I wanted to give my heart to frikkin' Arachnos!

Anyway, I do NOT want a storyline that says "This requires the power of the Incarante. You want this, so you will go get that." This is bad writing in the extreme, and we do not need it. It's much better to say "Hey, new stuff has shown up and you can use it to get more powerful. Wanna?" Why? Who cares! Maybe I just want to be more powerful, maybe I want to save the world, maybe I want to fulfil an ancient prophecy or maybe I'm just bored. MY CHOICE!

Uh-huh. Never heard that one before, by golly.

I don't.

When was the last time City of Heroes followed the route set by every MMO ever made? I dunno, let me think. Hamidon, Rikti Ship Raid, the concept of multi-team Giant Monsters, Inventions, the Market, the STF and RSF, ultra-rare purples and even more rare PvP recipes, the Cathedral of Pain and PvP base raids (defunct but still here). People have been asking for stuff taken fed-ex out of the standard MMO handbook for years, and the developers eventually yielded and started giving us cleverly-modified versions of just that.

Also consider the "solo vs. teaming" aspect. We CAN solo, but they have never, EVER stepped out and guaranteed us that we can. We kind of just can if we manage it, and if we don't, too bad so sad. They've been treating solo play like an unintended slight that's just not worth addressing since day one, and Jack went far out of his way to stamp out the very concept of solo play. Most of the new content we get is in the form of TFs and trials, and even the solo-possible content we get still ends on gimmick bosses that end up requiring a team to beat anyway.

Look at it that way - the developers keep insisting that elite bosses are not designed to be soloable. They CAN be and that's just fine, but if they're not, no-one will shed a tear over it. Yet every frikkin' story arc ends in an elite boss. Take a moment to let that sink in. Almost every story arc (especially CoV-side) ends in a fight that is not specifically designed to be soloable. Most of them ARE, but they aren't specifically designed to be.

And to top it all off, all the "epic" content is not just team-centric, but team-centric and CHEATING. What hope do I have of having a solo option to earn Incarnate points and maybe even Incarnate levels? Because I'm not gonna' team for it, not enough to get too far in, and the result is that I'll pay for a system that's specifically designed to NOT let me use it. Kind of a bum deal, that.

*edit*
I'm not trying to be a dick here. I honestly do not want an Incarnate story which writes into my characters' bio for me, and the process of gaining Incarnate levels is a real, pressing concern of mine that "I'll be OK." isn't going to put to rest.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here, Johnny. Not on principle, but as a compromise. It's been my experience that if there isn't content which CANNOT be done solo, certain people will simply never be happy. And I can deal with that. TFs tend to tell their won, self-contained stories that, if you don't want to team, you can just ignore and it won't harm your experience of the game's story much. In short, I don't mind having content that requires teaming. What I mind is having EXCLUSIVE rewards hidden behind this content.

To point: I wouldn't mind content which required Incarnate levels of power, or indeed large teams of Incarnates. That's fine. That's what the added power is for. What I WOULD mind is having Incarnate levels themselves being locked behind forced teaming content. By all means, have team content for it, and give it faster levelling, to boot. It comes with the territory. But give me a solo alternative. Preferably one written specifically for people who don't like big groups and large events, but even just an afterthought would be fine.

But please don't turn Incarnate levels into the equivalent of trying to kit out a build in Hamidon enhancements.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

They most certainly do.
Hero Merit Rewards

Well, that solves the one problem I had with single player Merits. Originally when they awarded for story arcs, I thought that each character was hard-capped on the Merits he could ever get outside of repeatable team content, as arcs are not repeatable. If Ouro arcs grant Merits, then that gives solo players repeatable Merit-granting content.

See? That's the kind of out I'm talking about as a last resort.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

You have it backward. The point of the Incarnate system isn't to make us more powerful, it's to give us more challenging content to do with our 50s. Since the content will be more challenging, we'll need the extra power the Incarnate system provides.

Unfortunately, it's very possible that what we need more power for is big WoW-raid-style zone events. My sincere hope is that this is not the case.

You previously said that RP arguments are inwinnable, yet the majority of your posts seems to be exactly that. RP RP RP. I'm a role-player my self, I play on Virtue, I take my time to create my characters' bio, costume, personality. You mentioned some of your character concepts, but all I could see was hero, hero for money, hero for fame, hero for bills, hero out of boredom, hero hero hero... I play both blueside and redside. I play honorable heroes and malevolent villains/criminals, but I'm not limiting my self there. I have a hero-avenger who's sworn to kill all Tsoo. Why would he need to "arrest" a bunch of zombies? My main villain is a businessman who developed new optical illusion and hallucinogenic technologies, thus creating the "drugs" of the future. Why would he kill Snakes? He's just ruthless and wants to be filthy rich.
On topic, what you seem to suggest is that you just get more powerful. You kill a Skul and get the power of ZEUS!!Oh shiney!! You have no problem with that, right? Yeah, it can fit to a lot of concepts. Gratz, you woke up and claimed the power of Aphrodite. Now go on and seduce a bunch of people.
So, how about this: A mysterious man approaches you claiming to be the ouroboros letter-sender. He asks you to join him to fight against the Coming Storm in exchange for more power. As a(n):
1)honorable hero, you join him in a heartbeat to save the world
2)avenger, you could use more power to fight you nemesis, but you couldn't care less about Coming Storm, so you disappear the instant you recieve you new powers.
3)evil evil villain, you join him for new shiney powers and to make sure that he won't be able to prevent the Coming Storm, so that everything is destoyed.
4) hero for hire, he join him because he paid you.
5)gullible idiot, you joined him because he told you so.

The game didn't say WHY you received new powers, it just gave you a way to receive them. You found this dude and you either willingly joined him or you tricked him into giving you power. Some speculate (myself included), that the single incarnate level in GR would be about getting a customizable power. However, the system is not all about getting more powerful. It's about getting exclusive content for lv 50s. Yet, you believe that a simple ohh shiney! power-up can do the job. You went all the way from level 1 to level 50, just to recieve a bunch of new powers? Your leveling journey was all about power, the end game content has to be more than that.

That's called following the MMO/gaming route. Most games/MMOs have this kind of content, yet you failed to use the word MMO in your previous post and replaced it with WoW. Funny...it would seem like you think WoW is the epitomy of MMOs or something. That was what seems wrong to me. This game is an MMO and it's inevitable that you'll find some similarities with the genre in general, but saying that the devs will go the easy way and rip-off WoW makes no sense. Was WoW content developed by Mensa members?


I'm afraid the more I post, the more I appear like I have a personal vendetta with you, but it nothing like that. It's more like I think we roughly suggest the same things, while failling to understand each other's suggestions.

If only people bothered reading the whole post before replying...

You know, it'd be good if you stopped trying to guess my hidden motives for five minutes. Then I wouldn't have to keep explaining what should be obvious. So I mentioned a bunch of heroes and you assume I don't play villains. I picked heroic motivations because those are the easiest to explain. I see no reason why villainous motivations can't work exactly the same way. As long as the system doesn't try to enforce its own vision on why you want the power, you can have any motivation you want

On RP arguments: trying to dictate why something should be done for the sole reasons that it makes RP sense is an unwinnable argument, because everyone can spin RP to say absolutely anything. I can say it doesn't make sense for robots to have the power of the gods because they don't have souls, you can easily claim that only robots can have the power of the gods because those powers were not meant for mortal men and only the soulless can use them. Since this isn't real, neither one is right, hence why the argument is unwinnable.

What I've been putting forward is an argument of preference that is RP-related only tangentially. I prefer to have RP left up to me to decide, not something given to me by the game. This isn't really something you can counter with RP narrative. This is only something you can counter with your own opinion. You are free to disagree, just as long as you're aware you're not going to change my opinion by stating your own.

No, not in the slightest. For probably the third time, I don't mind the game having special content required to earn this new power. Like capes and auras, as long as it makes sense in-world, I can deal with it. I still won't like it, simply because what you describe is how I WANT to see the thing done, but being realistic, I can see and accept special content being involved in this. After all, once you go Super Sayin, you're gonna' need content geared for that level of power in order to gain the ability to go Super Sayin 2.

What I don't want this to involve is being "employed" by some "mysterious stranger." I'm sick and tired of working for other people, including on my heroes. I want to get this power ON MY OWN. Other people can come along and help me, themselves looking for a piece of the power, but as long as I'm not under their employ, I don't mind. Villain-side, the Dean McArthur and I-can't-believe-it's-not-Leonard arcs do just that, hence why I view them as precedent.

6) A smart or suspicious hero would tell him to sod off.
7) A megalomaniacal villain will be offended at the prospect.

Again, stop trying to invent more people for me to serve. It's no longer funny.

And again, stop trying to tell me what I'm thinking. You're not getting any warmer.

I said WoW for two reasons: One, for hyperbole, because saying "like WoW" just carries an intrinsically higher punch, and for another, because that's the one other MMO that I'm most familiar with, on account of having a friend who played it fervently and who did the gear grind and the raid loop. He had the good sense to realise how bored he was and just kicked the game to the curb (after having his account stolen twice), and I simply have no intention of going through the same motions as him.

On that note, just because the game is an MMO, it doesn't mean it has to be like every MMO ever made. Once you start describing an MMO like you can, say, every Oscar-winning movie ever made, then something is wrong with the game and the industry in general. I said as much when I brought up Crime Craft, but when you start defining your game as "has economy, has raids, has loot, has auction house" and neglecting to mention what it's actually ABOUT, then that's very bad indeed.

WoW is the benchmark. It shouldn't be, for the simple reason that you can't beat WoW by doing exactly what WoW does, but it is. I view this as highly dangerous, because most other MMOs seem to keep acquiring features from it as if by osmosis. Not necessarily good features, either, and not always even relevant to the game they're being introduced it. Years ago, people made this exact argument: They were here and not in WoW because they weren't interested in the raid grind and the gear arms race. I was among them. And I fear it is exactly this raid grind that we were missing which the Incarnate system aims to "fix." I hope I'm wrong. I would gladly eat crow and apologise if I'm wrong. But at this point, I'm just afraid that "raid grind" is exactly what we'll be getting, and people like me, people who prefer smaller teams and less optimal builds, will be politely told that if they don't like it, they don't have to use it.

I dare say it's mostly word choice and phrasing. I have no problem with your posts, myself, and as I've said elsewhere, I enjoy this. But it just feels like you keep assuming what I must be thinking that keeps sending the discussion sideways, specifically since I can't seem to let it go.

Basically, what I'm saying is that I have no problem with a storyline explaining HOW we are getting the powers, but I do mind a storyline explanation of WHY I'm getting them. And, yes, being employed by someone is a "why."

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Then feel free to suggest a way/storyline/anything tied to this game's canon that can fulfill your requirements.

To quote Indigo: Easy! Just off the top of my head:

The Well of the Furies is lost. Now. It wasn't in the past, though, and it just so happens Imperious knows where it is. Turns out the Midnighters' translation magic was ambiguous, and he just didn't know we were looking for it. Of course, being what it is, the Well is guarded by hideous monsters and in a place that's difficult to get to, like at the bottom of the Underworld or something. Getting to it is no mean feat!

However, once you get to it and share in its power... That's it. That's that. You have the power of the Incarnate. Only you don't really. You have the seed of that power, but nothing good comes for free. You can't just snap your fingers and be a god, you have to work at it. So, having found the power, it's up to you to use it and train for it in order to reach higher and higher levels of incarnate potential.

Why are you after it? Erm... Because it's there? Why do you want it? You mean aside from because it makes us more powerful? Who sends us to go get it? No-one, really. Imperious just guides us, but it's our own initiative that sends us there. How do you hone those skills? I dunno. Kill big things? Train under 100G? Visit the Peninsula of Levelling? Find the old man who lives at the top of the mountain? Kill Skuls? Why not all of the above?

That's basically what I'm saying. The story can focus on the journey and let us decide our own motivations. City of Villains is a lesson in how NOT to do things, because it assumes we want to be in Arachnos from level 1, and then it just runs with that concept for the next 49 levels. You don't want to? Well tough cookies! You're gonna'! It doesn't have to be like this. In fact, there was no reason to do it like this to begin with.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.