New to art collecting, need advice
By
Bayani,
Posted on: 2010-05-01 19:48 in Multi-Media Fan Creations
Cool. Thanks LJ.
Should I have a .costume file of the toon somewhere, to give to an artist if they play Heroes too?
I'll have to go spawn-smashing at some point, too...
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Echo So'kar reference shots ||| Punkicide reference shots
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Hmmm a costume file would be kind of a no brainer... yes I think that would help a lot, I kept guessing at the skin color. Plus it would allow them to make a version say without a cape they could enter the game with it, and move the camera around on them. Might be labor intensive for an artist with not a lot of free time, but couldn't hurt. I wouldn't tell them to do it, but if they feel like doing so, offer it.
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Originally Posted by EchoSoKar
Cool. Thanks LJ.
Should I have a .costume file of the toon somewhere, to give to an artist if they play Heroes too? I'll have to go spawn-smashing at some point, too... |
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*shakes head* I think the reference sheets LJ made is better and yes, you ideally want someone to take the pictures but I disagree about needing spunk/life/personality in the reference sheets. The model sheet should be left as open to interpretation as possible. "Stick to the facts, ma'am," so to speak...the details that must remain constant across all illustrations of the character. Personality/emotions are concept details you can/should discuss with the artist during the commission process. A good artist shouldn't need a reference to depict the character's emotion/personality and besides, those things change from illustration to illustration anyways. |
Originally Posted by LadyJudgement
I tried making my own of your toon... but I find the angles weren't enough to bring out any kind of personality, which is one of the things I think your sheet is missing. Technically it's fine, better than the first one, but there's no spunk there, no life... I think you need to go in game, and have someone take them, preferably with an eye for action, also those shots will show off her power effects, which is also very nice to give the artist.
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For instance, I negotiated a commission for Planet Girl recently with Dean Zachary. Linked to the model sheets, then we did a quick email exchange to settle on the concept which can be summarized as "Planet Girl stands atop the smoking ruins of several battle robots she has just vanquished. Smoke and ashes rise around her; she's abit weathered but still beautiful and victorious."
If you really want to see/explore the personality of a character you could have a character study done as an addendum to your model sheet. Here's a sample character study. Note how the artist worked on different facial expressions to flesh out his personality a bit more.
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*shakes head back* I agree about the character study as an additional commission and future reference chart addendum. What I meant by spunk/life/personality was something other than the technical side, front, back screens... something in addition to them, like so: LJ Mood Board
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Originally Posted by Bayani
.... but I disagree about needing spunk/life/personality in the reference sheets.
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What really put things into perspective for me was when I visited the pvp forums. We have our differences, but art forum at its worst is still more civil than some pvp posters average post.
Love the expressions in those studies, Bayani.
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I know what you're saying. I don't agree that you need anything beyond the technical aspects. That link doesn't add anything significant to the ends of "these are the details the artist needs in order to draw my character accurately." As an aside, there's no spunk/life/personality in those screenshots. It's just the figure in movement.
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Originally Posted by LadyJudgement
*shakes head back* I agree about the character study as an additional commission and future reference chart addendum. What I meant by spunk/life/personality was something other than the technical side, front, back screens... something in addition to them, like so: LJ Mood Board
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Just for context--|
Originally Posted by Lousy_Day
What really put things into perspective for me was when I visited the pvp forums. We have our differences, but art forum at its worst is still more civil than some pvp posters average post.
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I was completely focused on pvp in this game for years. And some of the best posters on the cox forums were dedicated pvpers. And there were threads with insightful commentary about the game, content, design, etc. But the devs took everything these people had asked for over the space of years and flushed it down the toilet with i13 pvp and the majority of them left or just stopped posting there.
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I also know what you're saying. But the movement is the spunk/life/personality, it's the difference between 2D and 3D, spatial awareness of the character in "action" is far better to me personally than say a flat head on shot that says nothing other than here are the least amount of details I can give you.|
Originally Posted by Bayani
I know what you're saying. I don't agree that you need anything beyond the technical aspects. That link doesn't add anything significant to the ends of "these are the details the artist needs in order to draw my character accurately." As an aside, there's no spunk/life/personality in those screenshots. It's just the figure in movement.
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Accuracy needs all the help it can get. We could do a case study, give 2 artists a flat tech reference, and give 2 other artists a more movement orientated reference. And if all 4 artists are of equal caliber, I would bet that the movement pieces come out more "accurate".
Sure this is also a question of artist style, some artists don't even need a visual, just a well written description as you pointed out.
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Can you quantify or describe how that's better? From a design point, I'd agree that it's more interesting. But a model sheet is about conveying specific information, and doing so as clearly and concisely as possible. A humanoid figure is a humanoid figure. There are only so many ways you can position a humanoid figure and view it at. Your mood shot in the end is still a set of 2D pictures of your character, and doesn't really say anything to me about your character's mood or personality....not nearly as much as the artist's character study above. Realistically, LJ, why would anyone need an upskirt/crotch shot of your character in order to create an illustration of her?|
Originally Posted by LadyJudgement
I also know what you're saying. But the movement is the spunk/life/personality, it's the difference between 2D and 3D, spatial awareness of the character in "action" is far better to me personally than say a flat head on shot that says nothing other than here are the least amount of details I can give you.
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| Accuracy needs all the help it can get. We could do a case study, give 2 artists a flat tech reference, and give 2 other artists a more movement orientated reference. And if all 4 artists are of equal caliber, I would bet that the movement pieces come out more "accurate". |
A core design concept is "keep it simple." Your mood sheet, in my opinion has unnecessary complexity that does not return a strong level of value. In my view, LJ, you'd be far better served relying less on screenshots and drawing a standard model sheet, then leaving up a 1-2 pages of character study (even straight pencils would suffice) as a supplementary.
References sheets should contain what I need to know in order to do the job. As an artist, I already know how to pose a human and do various expressions. That's my job as an artist. What I need is details on your specific character, including outfit, skin type, hair, eyes, etc. Unless you have a need for a specific emotion and face that only your character can do, I don't really care.
If you want to give me a "mood sheet" or something in addition to the character sheet, that's fine. As the artist, I can always ignore details I don't need. Perhaps I can use them, but when I'm looking for reference, extraneous detail just adds complexity where I don't need it. A character sheet should have just the facts and nothing more.
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see blue print for my reply.
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Originally Posted by Bayani
Can you quantify or describe how that's better?
Better - movement, the personality of seeing the character in action, specifically if powers are being displayed (not so the case of my example) From a design point, I'd agree that it's more interesting. But a model sheet is about conveying specific information, and doing so as clearly and concisely as possible. True, a "model" sheet is that. But I was talking about a "mood" board, something used in the fashion industry to inspire the designer. Not the same thing, it's definition is based on abstracts: color, texture, other examples of previous designs used again for inspiration. A humanoid figure is a humanoid figure. There are only so many ways you can position a humanoid figure and view it at. Your mood shot in the end is still a set of 2D pictures of your character, and doesn't really say anything to me about your character's mood or personality....not nearly as much as the artist's character study above. Realistically, LJ, why would anyone need an upskirt/crotch shot of your character in order to create an illustration of her? Of course no one needs a crotch shot, that was put in there for fun, to convey a sexiness about her. I believe there are plenty of more anatomically correct examples, if I really wanted to focus on that. The problem with your artists study, which I think is fine as an addition, it's misleading in that as an artist, how much do I follow it? If the client wanted this exact look, why not hire the same artist? Sure there are varying expressions, but isn't that a given that anyone could interpret? Unless your character is specifically dour all the time, and you insist on only stoic faces. Technical shots are primarily for the costume details, descriptions follow the specifics - hair color, eye color, height, race, and or "character", but seeing the body in motion is about capturing something other than simplicity. This is why students draw dancers, people on the street, 30 second studies to 30 minute studies. Why perhaps Lousey Day makes a quick thumbnail, my point being, it's something to build on. You don't even have to go that far. You could go ahead and poll artists asking them whether or not your mood sheet is any more helpful to them than a format similar to the Atto-Girl references I linked earlier. I guess it varies, Eddy Swan preffered my mood sheet, as he hadn't had it when he'd drawn LJ before. Suichiro is like you, less is more. A core design concept is "keep it simple." Your mood sheet, in my opinion has unnecessary complexity that does not return a strong level of value. In my view, LJ, you'd be far better served relying less on screenshots and drawing a standard model sheet, then leaving up a 1-2 pages of character study (even straight pencils would suffice) as a supplementary. Well I really did the board for myself, and anyone who wanted to draw her. I'm not a collector, so it's not something I would be showing, if I want LJ art, I usually can make something. I get that at a convention you can't press a professional with mood boards, they just want one sheet if anything at all. Your experience is your experience, so whatever has been working for you, obviously is enough. It was merely a suggestion. I retract the better statement on grounds of varying tastes. |
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Ahh much better. Thanks Frost.|
Originally Posted by Frost
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(lol @ the guy that smacked him in the face with pixie dust at the end
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Originally Posted by Texas Justice
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Meanwhile I'm glad to see others popping in and getting info and sharing thoughts on the process as well. Free exchange of ideas is what makes a good thread I say... well that and boobies.
On the topic of mood boards...
Not being an artist and thus not being one who would use them, I still see how they could be useful. Perhaps not needed, but useful...
If I provide a model sheet of Caemgen (or even just reference shots from the costume creator) artists tend to make certain assumptions, be it power wise, attitude or whatever...
Hopefully through email exchanges these things can be clarified but then again, as has been said, a picture is worth a thousand words. Throw in that the deal may be negotiated long before the artist gets to work or that there may he language issues, and I definitely can see how a mood board would be effective for conveying powers, typical poses and how the character owner sees the character...
Needed? Maybe not?
Helpful? Sometimes more than others I would think but I would say yeah...
six of one, half-a-dozen of the other.
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Well, no offense, but now you’re just straying off-topic. Echo was creating a model sheet, a reference template for artists to use when illustrating the character. You’re attempting to repurpose it into a presentation that’s typically used to visually illustrate the direction of style. The thing is, that’s what you *don’t* want to do when collecting original character art. You want to maintain continuity of the character’s appearance, not the continuity of the style of the character. Collectors generally hire artists because they like the artists’ styles and want to see different artists’ takes on the character. The expectation is that the commissioned artist will be depicting the character(s) in his/her style. As Suichiro mentioned, it’s the artist’s job take the character, draw it accurately, and bring him or her to life. | Better - movement, the personality of seeing the character in action, specifically if powers are being displayed (not so the case of my example…. a "model" sheet is that. But I was talking about a "mood" board, something used in the fashion industry to inspire the designer. Not the same thing, it's definition is based on abstracts: color, texture, other examples of previous designs used again for inspiration. |
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| Of course no one needs a crotch shot, that was put in there for fun, to convey a sexiness about her. I believe there are plenty of more anatomically correct examples, if I really wanted to focus on that. |
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| The problem with your artists study, which I think is fine as an addition, it's misleading in that as an artist, how much do I follow it? If the client wanted this exact look, why not hire the same artist? Sure there are varying expressions, but isn't that a given that anyone could interpret? Unless your character is specifically dour all the time, and you insist on only stoic faces. Technical shots are primarily for the costume details, descriptions follow the specifics - hair color, eye color, height, race, and or "character", but seeing the body in motion is about capturing something other than simplicity. This is why students draw dancers, people on the street, 30 second studies to 30 minute studies. |
“If you really want to see/explore the personality of a character you could have a character study done as an addendum to your model sheet. Here's a sample character study. Note how the artist worked on different facial expressions to flesh out his personality a bit more.”
That was my exact quote regarding the character study…it’s an addendum if you want to explore the personality of the character. It’s not a core part of the model sheet. All of the professional artists I’ve worked with, from conceptual artists to comic book artists, to animators, to illustrators can attest that a model sheet is an industry standard. *shrugs*
If you want a particular expression or mood for an illustration of your character...it's just a matter of requesting it in your initial inquiry and confirming it again before sending payment. If artists are making certain assumptions of your character based off the references you're providing, then it's probably a hint that you should carefully re-evaluate the information you're providing as well as whether or not you're directing your commission enough. Language barriers/long turnaround times...those are risk factors to be considered before you decide to commit to the deal. Adding elements like character studies or mood boards won't be nearly as effective as you think if the artist A) doesn't pay attention to them or B) doesn't understand why they're included.
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Yes.| I don't care if you disagree with me, but do I have to agree with you? *Shrugs back* |
Anyway, the problem with model sheets is that they don't help if the artist ignores them or doesn't know why they're included...
(Seems to me that arguement could be used about everything though, from directions to soap to dictionaries etc etc etc..)
*shrug*
I would prefer a bio to a mood board and a model sheet to screenshots. A mood board is something *I* would explore myself to get a feel for the character. I'm using the model sheet so I can get the costume, proportions, etc. etc. right. If I have a bunch of expressions already mapped out for me when I do my own thumbnails, that's going to take away from the connection I get with your character to bring them to life.
Its like seeing a movie and THEN reading the book. The characters invariably turn into the actors you saw already when you start reading, not just in face, but in action. If I get a model sheet and a bio, I can see how the character should LOOK, but then I do what you hired me for and bring the scene you want to life with my views of what facial and body expressions best convey the character's personality.
I can definitely see what you're saying there Wassy but I was thinking mood board more along the lines of LJ's one with different poses and such rather than the expressions...
I was thinking something like that should show the artist the type of poses the commissioner tends to like (is he showing the character in heroic poses or lurking in shadows? Is he showing the character brawling or blasting away from a distance..) as well as power effects and such. I would think the person would include shots they liked the most and thus it would provide insight to what kind of arts they would be looking for...
But such can also be gotten in a bio, obviously. Or discussion between the two... But as I mentioned earlier somewhere, on occasion language can be a barrier.
All in all though, I think it never hurts to have as many "weapons" at your disposal as possible to get the point across and find out via talking with the artist which is most appropriate to share/which are most desired by the artist.
I would still keep that very VERY loose and it wouldn't be in your complete best interest to nail down exact poses (and not on an actual sheet you give to every artist). If you work with a good artist, you SHOULD be getting a bunch of thumbnails with a lot of choices (Howard Pyle said he would do 50 thumbs for every piece, even if he went with the first one he did). If the artist gets that stuff and says "OK, I guess this is exactly the pose they want", they might not explore different avenues where they might stumble upon something completely kick *** that neither of you had thought of.
Case in point, on the deadly sin piece I'm doing for my class, I thought I had the perfect composition and idea before I started. But I still had to do 30 thumbs as a requirement. So I started really playing around... and something like 15-20 in I nailed on an extremely different composition and scene that TOTALLY blew away what I originally planned on doing. The concept was by far and way stronger, and composition way more interesting. I spent my last 10 thumbs refining that idea and have now ended up with something I'll be including in my final portfolio.
If you direct facial expressions and posing (which is just as expressive) too much right off the bat, you might shoot yourself in the foot. And since you mentioned language barrier... giving a pose sheet might make that even WORSE because without being able to say "explore along these lines", the artist might assume he/she IS totally limited to what you gave!
Working on a proper Mood Board, here's a sneak peak...
Hi Texas,
Been reading this thread with some interest.
From personal experience the image references I gave to artists when I first started commissioning pieces based on my character Comrade Hero was solely based on in-game images and any details that could be useful
For example the materials different parts of the costume were made from - leather, cloth, steel etc. and comparisons power and personality wise between my character and existing DC/Marvel characters.
Comrade Hero for example is inspired by Captain Marvel (Fawcett/DC), Captain America (Marvel), Green Lantern Hal Jordan (DC) and Judge Dredd (2000AD)
After I started receiving commissions that I thought best captured the 'feel' of the character I started including examples of other people's commissions and a real world ideal in the form of a person with the face and/or physique I believed would have made a good Comrade Hero.
In my case it was originally Sean Bean and Arnold Schwarzenegger's Bodybuilding era physique, and now Viggo Mortensen (brilliant in Eastern Promises) and Arnold Schwarzenegger's Bodybuilding physique. The artist/sculptor started having access to information about physical measurements and dimensions to work with as well.
One of the mistakes I made for the longest time was to have all that information spread over a multitude of links. I only recently started condensing the whole lot into one page.
This didn't take any real artistic skill on my part - just access to Word and printing the document to file as a JPEG file that was easily uploaded to deviantART.
Having everything in one easy to access file made it simple to send the information to a potential artist and get a quick response as to whether or not this was a character they would like to work with.
I constantly tweak and revise the information/images but here's two examples of my signature heroes - Comrade Hero and Graviton Girl.
Comrade Hero (2010)
Graviton Girl (2010)
All the best to you on your artistic adventure.
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Little late to the party there, Comrade. |
Originally Posted by Comrade Hero
Hi Texas,
Been reading this thread with some interest. From personal experience the image references I gave to artists when I first started commissioning pieces based on my character Comrade Hero was solely based on in-game images and any details that could be useful For example the materials different parts of the costume were made from - leather, cloth, steel etc. and comparisons power and personality wise between my character and existing DC/Marvel characters. Comrade Hero for example is inspired by Captain Marvel (Fawcett/DC), Captain America (Marvel), Green Lantern Hal Jordan (DC) and Judge Dredd (2000AD) After I started receiving commissions that I thought best captured the 'feel' of the character I started including examples of other people's commissions and a real world ideal in the form of a person with the face and/or physique I believed would have made a good Comrade Hero. In my case it was originally Sean Bean and Arnold Schwarzenegger's Bodybuilding era physique, and now Viggo Mortensen (brilliant in Eastern Promises) and Arnold Schwarzenegger's Bodybuilding physique. The artist/sculptor started having access to information about physical measurements and dimensions to work with as well. One of the mistakes I made for the longest time was to have all that information spread over a multitude of links. I only recently started condensing the whole lot into one page. This didn't take any real artistic skill on my part - just access to Word and printing the document to file as a JPEG file that was easily uploaded to deviantART. Having everything in one easy to access file made it simple to send the information to a potential artist and get a quick response as to whether or not this was a character they would like to work with. I constantly tweak and revise the information/images but here's two examples of my signature heroes - Comrade Hero and Graviton Girl. Comrade Hero (2010) Graviton Girl (2010) All the best to you on your artistic adventure. |
You need to send your message further back in time.
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Just took a look...that's a really nice document of the Comrade there...Might do that for a couple of my toons...|
Originally Posted by Comrade Hero
Hi Texas,
Been reading this thread with some interest. From personal experience the image references I gave to artists when I first started commissioning pieces based on my character Comrade Hero was solely based on in-game images and any details that could be useful For example the materials different parts of the costume were made from - leather, cloth, steel etc. and comparisons power and personality wise between my character and existing DC/Marvel characters. Comrade Hero for example is inspired by Captain Marvel (Fawcett/DC), Captain America (Marvel), Green Lantern Hal Jordan (DC) and Judge Dredd (2000AD) After I started receiving commissions that I thought best captured the 'feel' of the character I started including examples of other people's commissions and a real world ideal in the form of a person with the face and/or physique I believed would have made a good Comrade Hero. In my case it was originally Sean Bean and Arnold Schwarzenegger's Bodybuilding era physique, and now Viggo Mortensen (brilliant in Eastern Promises) and Arnold Schwarzenegger's Bodybuilding physique. The artist/sculptor started having access to information about physical measurements and dimensions to work with as well. One of the mistakes I made for the longest time was to have all that information spread over a multitude of links. I only recently started condensing the whole lot into one page. This didn't take any real artistic skill on my part - just access to Word and printing the document to file as a JPEG file that was easily uploaded to deviantART. Having everything in one easy to access file made it simple to send the information to a potential artist and get a quick response as to whether or not this was a character they would like to work with. I constantly tweak and revise the information/images but here's two examples of my signature heroes - Comrade Hero and Graviton Girl. Comrade Hero (2010) Graviton Girl (2010) All the best to you on your artistic adventure. |
And better late than never to the party....
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I don't have that much art, but I do write stories and I do collect art on
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I tried making my own of your toon... but I find the angles weren't enough to bring out any kind of personality, which is one of the things I think your sheet is missing. Technically it's fine, better than the first one, but there's no spunk there, no life... I think you need to go in game, and have someone take them, preferably with an eye for action, also those shots will show off her power effects, which is also very nice to give the artist.