New to art collecting, need advice
By
Bayani,
Posted on: 2010-05-01 19:48 in Multi-Media Fan Creations
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Originally Posted by Caemgen
To be fair, it as kind of subtle
 I only noticed it because I was confused wtf you were talking about so reread the sentence... And btw - really nice work! |
I would have posted it in orange type, but than CR would sue me into next week. And by the by, thank you...
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No, and no. |
Originally Posted by LadyJudgement
So I guess you missed the gift art I placed at the bottom of my last post. Or worse you didn't like it... lolol.
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I have my browser at home running Zombie Man's Hero Skin through Stylish with some greasemonkey scripts to make things easier for me to notice, such as links.
The piece you quoted actually was referencing the entire post, including the link.
Just glanced at this while inhaling lunch running three OS loads, two updates on different computers, and trying not to throw another computer into the wall in frustration.
Several things for me to think about here. Just give me a bit of time, I'm old, a bit set in my ways and sometimes too much of a linear thinker.
I'm not discounting anyone's input, but I'm finally starting to get some things focused in a direction that's letting me understand things differently.
I'll have a couple of long posts tonight.
Possibly a few PM's to send a few of you as well for some things I don't want to clutter the thread with and get off on a different tangent.
EDIT: Well, I notice my next post will be a numerical milestone. I'm going to save it for this thread instead of making it in Technical Issues and Bugs where I normally post nowadays. See you tonight for #5000.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
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Wow it must be really hard for you to say, thanks, or thanks, but that's not how I see him. |
Originally Posted by Texas Justice
No, and no.
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Yup that took me all of 5 seconds. Save me the long explanation, I'll reserve my gift art for people with more time on their hands.
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Actually I think he said he didn't miss it and that he didn't hate it ... (during his lunch pause at work) ... I don't see the problem there. Maybe I missed something. [PS. I really liked the sketch LJ ... seemed pretty cool to me]|
Originally Posted by LadyJudgement
Wow it must be really hard for you to say, thanks, or thanks, but that's not how I see him.
Yup that took me all of 5 seconds. Save me the long explanation, I'll reserve my gift art for people with more time on their hands. |
As for the model sheet ... I never realized that something like this or this may not be good enough. I know some may think my gallery doesn't compare with some of the better ones out there but I have never had problems with my larger commissions (I'm not talking about the quickies here). The commissions where I chatted with the artist, and got specifics and concepts down all worked fine with this kind of presentation. I know ... I heard ... you meant that it would/could work better with an official model sheet.
I may have to think about that ... but even to convince anyone to do a model sheet for Thornster could be interesting
I have to go check out TJs refs to comment specifically on those though, but I have always worked with screenshots and some explanations for the details.
Char Site | My DeviantArt
Global=@Thornster
Ok I looked your references over and here are a few comments.
As mentionned previously, you should pick a contrasting background so your character stands out a bit more. Do it in game if you have to ... the wall of a sandy colored building makes for a wonderful backdrop (and make sure it is daytime in the game).
I would remove some of the space between the different poses so that the information takes the least amount of space ... I would think it is easier to work with it that way.
I would add to those full body shots, (on the same image so it doesn't get lost) close ups of the key elements and maybe a shot without TJs cape so the full back view is available to the artist in case TJ isn't just standing in your commission. Stuff like the belt, doesn't really stand out on your screenies and I'm not sure how important the look of the belt is. With your current refs I get the impression it isn't really that important.
Now if you wanted to try to help the artist without going to a full model sheet ... I think adding stuff like the RGB values for the colors used and maybe pointing out some details that are key elements to you directly on the Reference composite might be nice too.
Other than that ... well that would be what I would use so ... if I am doing it wrong then I am guiding you wrong
Edit: sorry read the journal after
On the journal:
I have to agree with the comment about the long description of the emblem ... the shot you have in your gallery is a nice reference and the short description you have with it is enough (I think) to sum up all that paragraph.
If the goal was to describe his physical appearance only, then I would have added a few "dialog bubbles" to the reference composite to point out stuff or add a little detail here or there.
In the texts I use to describe Thornster to artist, I add some personality bits and stuff that "is him" or "isn't him" to try to give the artist a better feel for who he is. Then again ... that may be useless and no one mentionned it. so ... /shrug
Char Site | My DeviantArt
Global=@Thornster
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Ah, well you're a perfect example, Thornster. You didn't see all the back and forth I did with Kevin Sharpe to get Blackthorn right in the Bayani commission. That piece took several months to pull together because the artist perused your screenshots and they were difficult to interpret without a whole lot of questions. I didn't want to waste the artist's time chatting over the details so I ended up scheduling time with you to get the exact shots with the right lighting to clarify the details. And even then, a few pieces needed refining, which is why I had it inked as well; overall it was alot of work. The thorns still ended up looking like spines and I'm hoping those get corrected a bit in the final colors.|
Originally Posted by Thornster
Actually I think he said he didn't miss it and that he didn't hate it ... (during his lunch pause at work) ... I don't see the problem there. Maybe I missed something.
As for the model sheet ... I never realized that something like this or this may not be good enough. I know some may think my gallery doesn't compare with some of the better ones out there but I have never had problems with my larger commissions (I'm not talking about the quickies here). The commissions where I chatted with the artist, and got specifics and concepts down all worked fine with this kind of presentation. I know ... I heard ... you meant that it would/could work better with an official model sheet. I may have to think about that ... but even to convince anyone to do a model sheet for Thornster could be interesting I have to go check out TJs refs to comment specifically on those though, but I have always worked with screenshots and some explanations for the details. |
Overall, my suggestions for your references Thornster would be to have someone else take your screenshots and get higher resolution images with better lighting. It'll clarify the details more and give the artist room to zoom in and examine the pieces more closely. Most artists have seriously high resolution screens so your pictures being at a relatively small resolution makes them more difficult to view closely. Here's a screenshot model sheet I did for PG's other character, Atto-Girl until a real model sheet can be done. Clicking the image will go to the larger version on dA. Note how we chose a background that contrasts the costume's colors to make the pictures pop more.
Oh no fair! You picked the character I know I have to redo my model sheet for ... yes I know that his are dark and lack detail ... but his costume doesn't help ... the details and colors variations are too subtle. Getting good details on a hot pink/black costume is easier
But yes ... I should apply the tips I just gave TJ to my own composites ... /blush
Actually I just took another look at that first Thornster ref and it needs to be redone too ... I did that in the first year of the game with a very different rig than the one I have now ... ok ok ... back to the drawing board ... my main's need some luvin'
Char Site | My DeviantArt
Global=@Thornster
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More like next month n' stuffz.... errr I mean... I have like no ideaz *shuffles legal looking forms under a pile of sketches* what you iz talkin bout LJ, ahem. |
Originally Posted by LadyJudgement
I would have posted it in orange type, but than CR would sue me into next week. And by the by, thank you...
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That's just one more awesome thing about mah orange textz... no one misses when I have a link *** HEY TJ, LADY JUDGEMENT DREW YOUR HERO ***
in my text... must be teh contrastin colors or sumpin'.
(P.S. Nice design there Bobby)Joking aside for a moment, you are really getting some amazing advice here... seriously re-read what Suichiro, Caemgen, Bayani, Wassy and others are saying.
These people are speaking from long experience and instead of debating it you should seek to understand what they are saying and why it's important.
A few points I would touch on...
Take a look through Bayani and Planet Girls collections on DA for a bit... do you see a bunch of "Brandoness" (tm) in their other works?
I think your concern in that regard isn't really warranted. Other artists just use it for reference to see how things line up and for
a clear representation of what the details should look like and they then proceed to interpret that in their own style.
Try thinking of it more as "this will help me to better convey what I want and give me a degree of consistency throughout
my collection" rather than "I don't want to overly influence future commissions and limit their style to one artists vision."
Also, it doesn't have to be as complex as you're making it out to be... Bayani chose different people in his character sheet because
at every step of the way (drawing, inking, and coloring etc) he is choosing whoever he thinks is best for that job
even if that means a different person for every task. Doesn't mean you need to go that route though.
Even a very clean series of line drawings with a few brief notes explaining to artists, unfamiliar with the game,
some of the tricky aspects of your costume (like how the beard/mask/goggles all relate) would be a big step forward.
Obviously no one is saying you must get a drawn ref sheet (or anything else suggested) but they do make some good points.
Sidenote: One helpful thing I don't think anyone has mentioned yet, if you do choose an artist that actively plays CoH, there is now,
with the "save" and "load" features recently added, an easy way to get them all the relevant details of your character's look.
Just save your heroes costume at any Icon and then go to your CoH game folder and there will now be a subfolder
called "costume." In that folder will be a tiny 6-10k file with the same name as what you saved under.
Attach that file to an email, send it to the artist and they can just pop it into their costume folder
and presto they now have your exact characters, slider positions and all... this might even
save Wassy the headache of having to recreate them all the time.
Speaking for myself, the costume creator is something I am very familiar with and I often know exactly what parts from the CC I'm looking at
from a single screenshot or just an avatar (the design Caemgen is using as his avatar is a good example) so a drawn reference sheet for
a character created in the "City of" games isn't really critical to me personally but this is the exception and not the rule.
As has been pointed out above, most artists will have no knowledge of CoH and so in-game screenshots that convey a lot of info to you, I
and others here will have much less meaning for them... I imagine it would be the same for me if I were asked to do a character from WoW...
*ducks the tar and feathers hurled in his direction for mentioning the dreaded name*
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Well the more detailed costumes do require extra work. I see commissioning art as a collaborative effort and if there's anything I can do on my end to make things easier for the artist, I'd be happy to do it if it's within my power. A well-designed costume could be considered a part of making things easier for the artist. I'm a big fan of clean/balanced designs and I believe that it's an important element in creating an iconic/memorable original character. Comrade Hero, Massacre Melanie, Airhead, Deebs, Masked Shrike, Soul Train, Planet Girl, and some of Attache and Jophiel's characters are standout because they've got aethetically pleasing designs that *make* their characters along with nice background stories.
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Originally Posted by Thornster
Getting good details on a hot pink/black costume is easier
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S... so... SOME?!?!?!
Good sir, every one of my characters is an example of finely crafted excellence!
I love ALL your characters, Joph!
Atta girl! And they love you!
I just need to get some money to start commissioning again some day. With a baby on the way, that may not be until you're all too famous for me to afford.
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Well first off I supplied the did you hate it and or see it - part. Something I shouldn't have to do, okay maybe the non contrasting type, didn't help. However "No and No." in my humble opinion are not polite responses. Maybe he works in a missile silo, and it's his turn to turn the key, so absolutely no time to type a lengthy reply... but wait he did reply. Okay he said he'd go into detail later... I guess I'm just an instant gratification *****, (rhymes with chore) HEY! Don't look at me like that! O_o |
Originally Posted by Thornster
Actually I think he said he didn't miss it and that he didn't hate it ... (during his lunch pause at work) ... I don't see the problem there. Maybe I missed something. (PS. I really liked the sketch LJ ... seemed pretty cool to me).
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okay, okay... it's not really a big deal. Just would have liked a simple and quick thanks.
And thanks Thorny, for noticing.
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I haven't seen all your characters. And some of your characters, I've seen more than I care to. =P (Never ever want to see Lounge Crooner in Ms. Frost's costume *EVER* again.)
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Originally Posted by Jophiel
S... so... SOME?!?!?!
Good sir, every one of my characters is an example of finely crafted excellence! |
That gives me an idea!
*does the Lounge Crooner in a Speedo*
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Ahhhhg! Pass the Mind Bleach! Quick someone post boobies to remove teh horrorz of it all. |
Originally Posted by Wassy
That gives me an idea!
*does the Lounge Crooner in a Speedo* |
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Originally Posted by Jophiel
Atta girl! And they love you!
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http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/unicorn-chaser.html
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Originally Posted by ChristopherRobin
Ahhhhg! Pass the Mind Bleach! Quick someone post boobies to remove teh horrorz of it all.
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Just for the heck of it - most of the screenshot "character views" I throw together for my characters (here) seem to work out relatively well. I've only recently had one person have a little trouble, and they were given some other shots to begin with - I think they lightened the shots and it screwed up the color.
Otherwise, yeah, I generally get some good results (and I think I'm missing a piece or two in there. Need to check... across two computers, for starters.)
Anyway - keep your price range in mind, shop around, make sure you're satisfied with the artist's other work before commissioning him or her (I love Wassy's stuff, but have only had one piece in mind so far that her style "fit" for instance.) And communicate - before and after. (During is good, too, but I've run across more artists than not that just start and you get the finished item.) Sales are (sometimes) a good time to experiment - you might find someone you love working with (I seem to do a lot with playworkart and semaj007 on DA, and found them from mention of a sale,) and if it's just "not right," well, you're not spending as much as you could have. 
And yeah. I'm big on communication, both give and take.
good thread , I snagged a couple pointers I hadn't thought about .
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Unfortunately, we don't all design are in game characters to eventually be drawn. And with the number of times I held back on asking for art of Thornster because I thought the artist may not have fun drawing him ... trust me ... he wasn't designed to be drawn. On the other hand ... he stands out ... so ... I like that. He may not be memorable ... but he is mine |
Originally Posted by Bayani
Well the more detailed costumes do require extra work. I see commissioning art as a collaborative effort and if there's anything I can do on my end to make things easier for the artist, I'd be happy to do it if it's within my power. A well-designed costume could be considered a part of making things easier for the artist. I'm a big fan of clean/balanced designs and I believe that it's an important element in creating an iconic/memorable original character. Comrade Hero, Massacre Melanie, Airhead, Deebs, Masked Shrike, Soul Train, Planet Girl, and some of Attache and Jophiel's characters are standout because they've got aethetically pleasing designs that *make* their characters along with nice background stories.
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Now when I want one that is more straight forward to draw ... I usually go with my Capt Quebec. That is his "Homage to the Flag" costume, which is a little more intricate, but it is still pretty basic.
The other problem I have is that I try to be interesting when I put together my screenshot composite refences. That is fun for me but may not be the best approach for something to be used by artists. So yeah I should keep the artists in mind a bit more when putting references together.
Char Site | My DeviantArt
Global=@Thornster
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Well, I have alot of characters in-game that will not be drawn, but I still aim to make iconic costumes. *shrugs* I like my characters to look good. And I enjoy checking out the great costumes/designs fellow players come up with.|
Originally Posted by Thornster
Unfortunately, we don't all design are in game characters to eventually be drawn. And with the number of times I held back on asking for art of Thornster because I thought the artist may not have fun drawing him ... trust me ... he wasn't designed to be drawn. On the other hand ... he stands out ... so ... I like that. He may not be memorable ... but he is mine
Now when I want one that is more straight forward to draw ... I usually go with my Capt Quebec. That is his "Homage to the Flag" costume, which is a little more intricate, but it is still pretty basic. The other problem I have is that I try to be interesting when I put together my screenshot composite refences. That is fun for me but may not be the best approach for something to be used by artists. So yeah I should keep the artists in mind a bit more when putting references together. |
References should stick to the real core/essence of the character. You want the viewer to focus on the details that make the character who he/she is and not be distracted by details that are irrelevant to drawing the character according to your vision. Everything the artist needs to know about drawing your character should be seen clearly in a three point turnaround of the character (front, side, back) and the bust. (front and side). If you have assymetrical designs (or designs that are only on one side of the body), the yeah, you'll need a picture of the other side. Things like auras, guns, energy blasts etc I would leave up to the discretion of the artist; it's a good opportunity for them to add their own interpretaions.
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Well I don't aim to make idiotic costumes either (and I hope mine come across that way either), I just meant that those I prefer having drawn, while interesting , were not designed to be easy to draw.|
Originally Posted by Bayani
Well, I have alot of characters in-game that will not be drawn, but I still aim to make iconic costumes. *shrugs* I like my characters to look good. And I enjoy checking out the great costumes/designs fellow players come up with.
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But yeah, I do agree with what you said about references. Eventhough I may find the 3 full body/2 close up layout "boring" in time, if that is what fits the bill, then I will try to stick to that from now on.
Char Site | My DeviantArt
Global=@Thornster
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The couple of times I've had Rose Veldt drawn, I sent along a photo reference of a sniper rifle similar to her in-game weapon. Partially because some artists don't seem to draw a lot of firearms/machines and might appreciate the reference and partially because, while I'm not real picky about the rifle details, I don't want her coming back with a double-barrel shotgun, AK-47 or cartoonesque elephant gun.
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Originally Posted by Bayani
Things like auras, guns, energy blasts etc I would leave up to the discretion of the artist; it's a good opportunity for them to add their own interpretaions.
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Well look at it this way, you're doing something boring in order to get something spectacular in the end. There's alot you can do with your character in game but commissioning art of your character is an opportunity to showcase your character doing things you can't do in some fashion on the servers. 'Sides, there's nothing stopping you from taking cool screenshots. I just don't believe you need it for commissioning art.
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Originally Posted by Thornster
Well I don't aim to make idiotic costumes either (and I hope mine come across that way either), I just meant that those I prefer having drawn, while interesting , were not designed to be easy to draw.
But yeah, I do agree with what you said about references. Eventhough I may find the 3 full body/2 close up layout "boring" in time, if that is what fits the bill, then I will try to stick to that from now on. |
I only noticed it because I was confused wtf you were talking about so reread the sentence...
And btw - really nice work!