Thought exercise - GR Crashing the BM
By
Angelwing,
Posted on: 2010-04-25 19:32 in The Market and Inventions
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UberGuy just won the internet and my forum virginity...
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
It's clear to me that you, the real person behind the keyboard, are a metahuman being. You possess the cranial density of a collapsed star. I imagine you eating food by dropping it into an event horizon. In my mind's eye, I can see a burrito warping into an accretion disk like some culinary halo, finally giving off a burst of x-rays above your head as it achieves relativistic speeds just before vanishing into the infinite abyss that is your inner being.
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Has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. We've been told many times that it is all the same game, inf is inf no matter which side. The only thing that differentiates being a hero or a villian is a single feild which contains a single number and in GR this goes away.|
Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic
blah blah blah, RP, blah blah blah
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The only thing that stays separate in this "all the same game" is the markets, which are all ready only separate through artificial means.
Really, it's not all that hard to figure out.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Don't forget Legacy Chain and Scrap Yarders (which have to be the red side casual players don't you know). There won't be a single thing listed on WW (not insps, not salvage, not recipes, not common IOs, or even standard enhancements) that will be safe for a purist hero RPer to buy (well OK maybe Hydra Os and Titan Os).
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Originally Posted by SwellGuy
Well they will be able to buy their common IO recipes off the tables too but they dare not use any Wentworths salvage.
And we will farm Wyvern, Manticore's heroes, too. Plus I plan to bring over villain mules with dual builds worth of stuff to hero side and email the items to my vigilantes to drop on Wentworths. The corruption of Wentworths will be glorious. Is it July yet? |
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Well, looks like we didnt have to wait on Gr to crash the BM- too bad we broke WW as well...
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once again Rp is being confused with a game mechanic...|
Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic
This again?
It's not like it is unexpected - nor should my reply. There is a price to pay for being evil. These posts are always about the "evil" side getting shafted. So here we go again. Once more to explain why evil shouldn't benefit from the hard work of heroes. That's Infa not to be confused with Influ. By "robust side" you mean to take away the fact that Influence is for Heroes. It isn't Red and Blue. It's Hero and Villain. Good and Evil. Yes, it pays to be "good". At least here in our comicbook game world. I'm not sure why there is any difficulty involved with e-mailing Influence to a character that has decided to join the heroes and the "strait and narrow path". You can send your self e-mail and if you have a Hero they can open up an e-mail with Influence in it. No problem there. Once again, you try to demean being a hero or a villain. This isn't red and blue. This is Good and Evil. There are plenty of other games without Good and Evil as definite alighments. If it is really so hard for you to deal with the fact that this game is about Good and Evil (and soon a gray area separate from the two) then maybe one of those other games would be more desirable for you. The "draw" to return to the "path of darkness" is to be a villain. I would figure that is why some players are playing villains rather than playing heroes. Their incentive would be to return to playing a "dastardly evil" character rather than a "goody-two-shoes" hero. I'm not trying to pick on you. I'm being perfectly serious. Super hero comics are NOT about neutrality. Sometimes villains switch sides and sometimes heroes "go rogue", but you can almost always tell when it is intended to for a character to be Good or Evil at any given point - that is pretty much the basis of the comic book hero genre. I really don't know why you expect villains to be rewarded for work done by heroes in a comic book super hero game - and that is what anyone that wants to see the markets merged - or implying that they should be - is asking for. If the villain side turns into a waste lands, then maybe that is for the best. It isn't even clear if you can get villain contacts to run missions in the Isles if you are a hero going rogue. If you are going Rogue and running "evil" missions - I'm assuming you won't be earning Infamy until you flip that corner and become a villain; I'm assuming that you won't earn Influence for running "evil" missions either if you are still a hero. I certainly hope the DEVs just leave it alone. That would be the reasonable thing to do in this genre. Yes, this is a Superhero Genre game. If you don't like the polarity then find a game where there the sides really are only distinguished by the color of uniform that they wear - aka "Red and Blue" (though most of those games the side that you are on is Blue and the enemy is always red - or, at least, that has been my experience) Those that pick the path of Evil deserve their just rewards - which by your guesses will be a big pile of nothing! Yeah! The Villains loose. Boo villains! Boo! The "repair" isn't needed. Go for it. Crash the villain markets and soak up all the glory of your villainy. Evil is as evil does. And you deserve what you get if you relieve yourself in your own swimming pool. Face it. You are villains. Heroes worked to fill the hero market full of stuff. If the villains want a market full of more stuff then they have to work for it. Why should evil get rewarded for the things that Heroes do? They shouldn't. I think we have been over this time and time again. If it is so bad to be villain, the maybe you should stop being evil and become a hero. I'm certainly not going to give up trying to be a good person in real life simply because it seems that those that lie, cheat, and steal on various levels seemed to be getting ahead in this world. I certainly hope I can come to a comic book game and expect to see that the lines are drawn and I can stand tall for my heroic actions and not see my hard work go to the benefits of evil (characters). Of course, I'm still for stripping characters of all enhancements (and everything else) and starting them back of at "square 1" if they go "darkside" or "finally see the light". There should be a massive price to pay for switching sides in a game that is THE game about the Superhero Genre. Don't come crying to me if your Mastermind becomes a Defender when they finally become a hero.  |
Alt, I just Rped that youll never confuse this again.....wierd how that wont happen.
I just Rp'ed that my Elec/elec blaster had the Exact same Defense that a Invun/Axe tank has.....wierd that the MECHANICS of the game wont let me do that in a real way.
So why do you keep confusing Rp with GAME MECHANICS?
Would you say that Rp is fantasy? Would you say that WW/Bm is a game mechanic? Say it with me....
Your post is Fail
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Yeah, because unlike EVERY OTHER ATTEMPT EVER at a planned economy, this one will work.
| Positron: We are looking at the problems in the markets very carefully and want a good, working, feasable, not exploitive, not still broken somewhere, fun, easy to understand, logical, solution. |
I honestly expect nothing before the entirety of the playerbase switches to vigilante to happen.
Even if Incarnates are for hero/villain Im fairly sure that will be fore hero/villain and not for those who have never switched sides as the complaints from that would be epic in scale.
And honestly completly closing off the endgame for those who go middle seems a bit harsh.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
Wouldn't it work to somehow give villains a little bit better access to rare stuff? A small increased rare drop rate, or a redside SF that only villains can do with really good rare stuff opportunities? Then go ahead and merge the markets and if the devs get the numbers right, it should balance out. Of course I'm no economist, so correct me if I'm horribly wrong. Heroes would have to be real bastards to complain about a measure like this one considering how many advantages they already have.
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I think we could point you to a few of those types who say we deserve a cruddy market because we are villains. They even lack the braincells to write that we are "playing" villains.
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Originally Posted by thehallows
Wouldn't it work to somehow give villains a little bit better access to rare stuff? A small increased rare drop rate, or a redside SF that only villains can do with really good rare stuff opportunities? Then go ahead and merge the markets and if the devs get the numbers right, it should balance out. Of course I'm no economist, so correct me if I'm horribly wrong. Heroes would have to be real bastards to complain about a measure like this one considering how many advantages they already have.
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total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Paging The_Alt_oholic to this thread!|
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
I think we could point you to a few of those types who say we deserve a cruddy market because we are villains. They even lack the braincells to write that we are "playing" villains.
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Wait, what's that smell?
Oh, he's here already. Carry on.
Yeah, well, I can complain back about the disadvantages that villains have. But excepting a few griefers, wouldn't that solution work to balance out a merged market?
EDIT: You know, it just occurred to me. The incarnate system seems like a perfect opportunity to fix this. I assume we will get some new items for slotting up our incarnate levels. So all the devs need to do is put some valuable new recipes or salvage into content that is only available redside. Perhaps some SF that awards the valuable item, and that is the only way you can get it. Or perhaps there is only one enemy group that drops it and you have to go redside to find them.
Then heroes will need what villains have to sell and players will also have good incentive to go redside at least for a while. If they implement this with the correct balance, this should make merged markets feasible and should also solve the problem of Rogue Isle becoming a ghost town.
Again, I'm no economist, so correct me if I'm embarassingly wrong.
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Only to a degree. The primary problem the Black Market relative to Wentworths is that there are at least twice as many users. When a person who plays both sides is playing a side, the other side has lost that buyer/seller/drop producer.|
Originally Posted by thehallows
Yeah, well, I can complain back about the disadvantages that villains have. But excepting a few griefers, wouldn't that solution work to balance out a merged market?
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So your suggestion might prompt a both sides player to play red side to the exclusion of blue so Wentworths takes a hit in activity. There was some of this when VEATs were released. The Black Market spiked in activity and there was some decline at Wentworths.
For some reason it seems that this simple fact eludes the anti-merger people. Then there are the blue side only that don't care about red side issues or the red side only niche marketeers who don't want to lose their grip on their marketeering.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Sorry SwellGuy, but I don't quite get it. You seem to start out by saying that it wouldn't work as a fix, but then everything you say afterwards seems to support the idea that it would work.
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Wouldn't this work out then? If there is something equivalent to a Luck of the Gambler or Numina proc that you can only get redside, then you would have people going redside to get them, or buying from those who went redside to get them. In your terms, you will have buyers/sellers/drop producers moving to redside. You will also have buyers who will be forced to buy specifically from villains if they want a certain item. What am I missing here?
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Originally Posted by SwellGuy
Only to a degree. The primary problem the Black Market relative to Wentworths is that there are at least twice as many users. When a person who plays both sides is playing a side, the other side has lost that buyer/seller/drop producer.
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The problem is that we don't know how long it will take to switch sides. From what I've read so far it will be anything but fast. So seeing how long it will take to go redside then back to blue will already be a disincentive.|
Originally Posted by thehallows
Sorry SwellGuy, but I don't quite get it. You seem to start out by saying that it wouldn't work as a fix, but then everything you say afterwards seems to support the idea that it would work. Wouldn't this work out then? If there is something equivalent to a Luck of the Gambler or Numina proc that you can only get redside, then you would have people going redside to get them, or buying from those who went redside to get them. In your terms, you will have buyers/sellers/drop producers moving to redside. You will also have buyers who will be forced to buy specifically from villains if they want a certain item. What am I missing here?
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Also the devs have said you DON'T take your inf with you when you switch sides. Go blue, you lose you influence. Go red, you lose your infamy.
You get it back when you come back, however, it's yet another disincentive to switch sides. So I think the only thing unique side items would do is to encourage people to START OFF playing on that side, which you don't need GR to do.
EDIT: So therefore even if you did switch just for the unique item, you'd STILL need to farm to have the necessary funds to get said item. Thus an EVEN LONGER grind than necessary. The only way it would work is if the side switching is VERY fast. Which it WON'T be.
Lures like that are NOT a good idea, as it often breeds resentment and unncessary arguments within the playerbase. See badges, temp powers, and pvp zones.
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I thought that was exactly the problem we're trying to fix here - they're luring people to go blue since there are inflated rewards blueside and it needs to be balanced out.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Lures like that are NOT a good idea, as it often breeds resentment and unncessary arguments within the playerbase. See badges, temp powers, and pvp zones.
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Even if the reward rate were exactly the same on either side, the market is better wherever there are more people. Markets become more useful with participation, and splitting participation is always suboptimal. The problems created by having two mutually exclusive markets competing for participation can't be solved by any measure other than not having two mutually exclusive markets competing for participation.
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Originally Posted by thehallows
I thought that was exactly the problem we're trying to fix here - they're luring people to go blue since there are inflated rewards blueside and it needs to be balanced out.
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@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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It's not a lure at all.|
Originally Posted by thehallows
I thought that was exactly the problem we're trying to fix here - they're luring people to go blue since there are inflated rewards blueside and it needs to be balanced out.
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The devs didn't BUILD in incentives to go blue.
People are going blue because the BM sucks and there is no population redside to get the volume needed so that the BM doesn't suck.
The fact that there is a lower population reside has nothing to do with with the devs having built any incentives to play blue. It has to do with many other reasons, including:
1. many folks not wanting to play villains no matter what (this alone will ALWAYS contribute to a smaller redside).
2. many folks not liking the color scheme, dreariness, and arcs (some folks openly state their hatred of Westen Phipps, among others) of the redside.
3. Many folks hate the "arachnos is the overarching 'invisible arm' that extends into EVERYTHING redside".
I can go on. The point is the devs didn't build lures into blueside to get people to play blue.
People for whatever reason just DON'T like redside, just like they don't like pvp.
So therefore there is no magic pony solution that will bring volume to redside. The only REAL solution is the one they refuse to do: MERGE. THE. DAMN. MARKETS.
EDIT: Also there ARE NO INFLATED rewards blueside. That's just silly.
You can make more inf REDSIDE due to the shortages in supply. I've done it multiple times now. It just takes sooooo much longer when you are trying to BUY something.
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aka: MERGE THE MARKETS.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Even if the reward rate were exactly the same on either side, the market is better wherever there are more people. Markets become more useful with participation, and splitting participation is always suboptimal. The problems created by having two mutually exclusive markets competing for participation can't be solved by any measure other than not having two mutually exclusive markets competing for participation.
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Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
I guess we have very different perceptions of why there are more people blueside. I kind of assumed it was to do with the fact that there is far more content and zones blueside, loads of neat goodies with special mission mechanics, and especially some really awesome content like Croatoa. Damn, I almost want to go Vigilante just for Croatoa.
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Are you serious? I don't go much on the forums, but are there actually people who say there aren't inflated rewards blueside? With everyone I've played with in-game, it's been taken for granted as a completely uncontroversial fact that blueside rewards are inflated. Are we all just imagining that, for instance, there are a lot more merit rewards to be had on a TF than a SF, because we're all so silly? I'm a little thrown out of whack by that claim, like someone just told me Earth rotates around Mars and it's silly to say otherwise or something.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
EDIT: Also there ARE NO INFLATED rewards blueside. That's just silly.
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So if you only want to fix red side and bork blue side, great. But that isn't a fix to the markets. It is transferring a problem from one side to the other.|
Originally Posted by thehallows
Sorry SwellGuy, but I don't quite get it. You seem to start out by saying that it wouldn't work as a fix, but then everything you say afterwards seems to support the idea that it would work. Wouldn't this work out then? If there is something equivalent to a Luck of the Gambler or Numina proc that you can only get redside, then you would have people going redside to get them, or buying from those who went redside to get them. In your terms, you will have buyers/sellers/drop producers moving to redside. You will also have buyers who will be forced to buy specifically from villains if they want a certain item. What am I missing here?
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A true fix is permanent and not based on side playing incentives which can come and go.
Positron has hinted that side switching with Going Rogue will have speed bumps in it. Specifically to change one degree (no definiton of what that means so it could be Villain to Rogue or Hero to Vigilante or merely a sub portion of those) would take a week of playing.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Reward / Time is standardized on both sides. I say it not because I am silly, but because I am capable of performing division.
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Originally Posted by thehallows
I guess we have very different perceptions of why there are more people blueside. I kind of assumed it was to do with the fact that there is far more content and zones blueside, loads of neat goodies with special mission mechanics, and especially some really awesome content like Croatoa. Damn, I almost want to go Vigilante just for Croatoa.Are you serious? I don't go much on the forums, but are there actually people who say there aren't inflated rewards blueside? With everyone I've played with in-game, it's been taken for granted as a completely uncontroversial fact that blueside rewards are inflated. Are we all just imagining that, for instance, there are a lot more merit rewards to be had on a TF than a SF, because we're all so silly? I'm a little thrown out of whack by that claim, like someone just told me Earth rotates around Mars and it's silly to say otherwise or something.
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Blue side rewards aren't inflated taken in context. Taken out of context people point to more merits for TF than SF and ignore the median time to run them. The only advantage the heroes really had was before the Katie Hannon TF got changed.|
Originally Posted by thehallows
I guess we have very different perceptions of why there are more people blueside. I kind of assumed it was to do with the fact that there is far more content and zones blueside, loads of neat goodies with special mission mechanics, and especially some really awesome content like Croatoa. Damn, I almost want to go Vigilante just for Croatoa.Are you serious? I don't go much on the forums, but are there actually people who say there aren't inflated rewards blueside? With everyone I've played with in-game, it's been taken for granted as a completely uncontroversial fact that blueside rewards are inflated. Are we all just imagining that, for instance, there are a lot more merit rewards to be had on a TF than a SF, because we're all so silly? I'm a little thrown out of whack by that claim, like someone just told me Earth rotates around Mars and it's silly to say otherwise or something.
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I too want to go Rogue for Croatoa and Striga.
(Vigilante is a hero going bad.)Here are (some) why there are more people playing blueside:
1. some people want to play heroes and do not want to play villains
2. some people didn't like red side content including the early zones' appearances so they won't play red
3. some people gave up on red because they didn't like Arachnos and Longbow everywhere
4. some people gave up on red because they didn't like Patron powers vs Epic Pools heroside
5. some people abandoned red for blue when the markets came along and red lagged early on
6. (probably one of the main reasons) some people playing blue already didn't want to go red because their friends weren't.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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But you are silly, right? That just isn't your reason.
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Originally Posted by Smurphy
Reward / Time is standardized on both sides. I say it not because I am silly, but because I am capable of performing division.
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total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Personally if we're talking about advantages I'd argue that Crotoa ain't all that. The only impressive things in there to me are the GMs and a FEW of the mob types.
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Originally Posted by SwellGuy
Blue side rewards aren't inflated taken in context. Taken out of context people point to more merits for TF than SF and ignore the median time to run them. The only advantage the heroes really had was before the Katie Hannon TF got changed.
I too want to go Rogue for Croatoa and Striga. (Vigilante is a hero going bad.)Here are (some) why there are more people playing blueside: 1. some people want to play heroes and do not want to play villains 2. some people didn't like red side content including the early zones' appearances so they won't play red 3. some people gave up on red because they didn't like Arachnos and Longbow everywhere 4. some people gave up on red because they didn't like Patron powers vs Epic Pools heroside 5. some people abandoned red for blue when the markets came along and red lagged early on 6. (probably one of the main reasons) some people playing blue already didn't want to go red because their friends weren't. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.