Thought exercise - GR Crashing the BM
By
Angelwing,
Posted on: 2010-04-25 19:32 in The Market and Inventions
I'm pretty sure "Villains of Paragon City" is taken on Virtue. Also, pretty much any name that sounds like a house of ill repute.
I ain't judgin', I'm just sayin'...
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
I'll also be sure to avoid any potentially petitionable names.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
I'm pretty sure "Villains of Paragon City" is taken on Virtue. Also, pretty much any name that sounds like a house of ill repute.
I ain't judgin', I'm just sayin'... |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Is Ebil Marketeers taken as a SG name?
Or Evil Marketeers if thats too much of an in-joke to wear above your head in public.
Wall Street Crashers?
Economic Crisis?
Illegal Aliens?
All your WW are belong to us?
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
I went with Real Villains of Paragon City. Bland I agree but I wouldn't want the QQ crowd to not get what we will be.
I cannot wait to take my shade over to Nerva as a vigilante and murder hapless Longbow and Wyvern and bring my booty back to Wentworths.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Quote:
Hmmm I wonder if Voids, Quants and Cysts won't spawn on red side for an evil PB?
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Originally Posted by SwellGuy
I went with Real Villains of Paragon City. Bland I agree but I wouldn't want the QQ crowd to not get what we will be.
I cannot wait to take my shade over to Nerva as a vigilante and murder hapless Longbow and Wyvern and bring my booty back to Wentworths. |
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Quote:
I kill them no matter what. |
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Hmmm I wonder if Voids, Quants and Cysts won't spawn on red side for an evil PB?
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total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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I simply dont trust whatever solution they come up with. Unless its something stupidly retarded like infinite merits for a short time I dont see anything that they could come up with that will make folks stay on redside with the market being the way it is. The problem with the whole thing has been since day 1, devs hate villains. Yes I said it devs hate villains. Everything about CoV is gear in such a way that it gives the heroes too many advantages, from the suck tasktict patron powers, to the piss poor AT mods that villains get, to pathatic merit amounts, its just unfair overall. Villains always get less merits per arc or tf than heroes despite the difficulty being harder and things being more frustrating. They really need to get rid of the whole merits over time metric because it simply doesnt work for balance.|
Originally Posted by Silurian
To add fuel to the speculation, I asked Positron at the PAX East meet-up what he thought of the intention of many villain players to go Hero or Vigilante just to access the blue market. His response was, paraphrased here, that "when the time comes to do that, they may find that they won't need to" for that particular reason, referring back to their intentions to address market shortcomings. Make of that what you will.
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True enough villains can do stuff alot faster but from what I find is that most villain players are more competent than most hero players. Villains are used to dealing with harder situations which is why they can complete the stuff so fast. What I do see happening is the following, since the devs will never allow the heroes to be at a disadvantage they will have to change the merit metric to something else. When all these villains switch sides they will most likely do certain TFs and arcs at such blazing speeds its going to cut all the merit rewards by like 1/2. Just imagine an all stalker manticore TF where you no longer have to wait on mogged pps to de-mog, instead they are killed in the first 10 seconds of the fight well before they mog. Imagine the Statesman TF with a perma-mind dom. Or an all stalker team shattering the previous speed record on a KHTF. Or all brute team totally destroying Citadel or Sister Psyche TFs. And dont get me started on what masterminds would accomplish.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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You mean besides lots of QQing of the "pure"?
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
And dont get me started on what masterminds would accomplish.
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total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Quote:
I'm confused. In the first paragraph, you say that villains have a number of systemic disadvantages compared to heroes. In the second paragraph, you say that all-villain AT teams are going to destroy heroside content. Which one is it?|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
I simply dont trust whatever solution they come up with. Unless its something stupidly retarded like infinite merits for a short time I dont see anything that they could come up with that will make folks stay on redside with the market being the way it is. The problem with the whole thing has been since day 1, devs hate villains. Yes I said it devs hate villains. Everything about CoV is gear in such a way that it gives the heroes too many advantages, from the suck tasktict patron powers, to the piss poor AT mods that villains get, to pathatic merit amounts, its just unfair overall. Villains always get less merits per arc or tf than heroes despite the difficulty being harder and things being more frustrating. They really need to get rid of the whole merits over time metric because it simply doesnt work for balance.
True enough villains can do stuff alot faster but from what I find is that most villain players are more competent than most hero players. Villains are used to dealing with harder situations which is why they can complete the stuff so fast. What I do see happening is the following, since the devs will never allow the heroes to be at a disadvantage they will have to change the merit metric to something else. When all these villains switch sides they will most likely do certain TFs and arcs at such blazing speeds its going to cut all the merit rewards by like 1/2. Just imagine an all stalker manticore TF where you no longer have to wait on mogged pps to de-mog, instead they are killed in the first 10 seconds of the fight well before they mog. Imagine the Statesman TF with a perma-mind dom. Or an all stalker team shattering the previous speed record on a KHTF. Or all brute team totally destroying Citadel or Sister Psyche TFs. And dont get me started on what masterminds would accomplish. |
edit: and what does this have to do with the BM?
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You don't know EvilRyu's posting history, do you? |
Originally Posted by Emberly
I'm confused. In the first paragraph, you say that villains have a number of systemic disadvantages compared to heroes. In the second paragraph, you say that all-villain AT teams are going to destroy heroside content. Which one is it?
edit: and what does this have to do with the BM? |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Quote:
Am I the victim of another forums in-joke |
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
You don't know EvilRyu's posting history, do you?
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Villains have the disadvantage but they are better players overall. Villains are used to dealing with much harder content than what heroes get. Because of this I feel when they switch over they are going to blow the easier hero content out of the water because its going to be trivial to them making the current merit times look like a sick joke. I dont see heroes doing so well on redside is because they would never have to deal with all the annoying crap that villains deal with so they would have to go slower. Not to say they are at a disadvantage but its just they will have to think about strategy alot more.
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Originally Posted by Emberly
I'm confused. In the first paragraph, you say that villains have a number of systemic disadvantages compared to heroes. In the second paragraph, you say that all-villain AT teams are going to destroy heroside content. Which one is it?
edit: and what does this have to do with the BM? |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Quote:
I do hope they look at red-side merits at some point. There are some arcs that just don't seem right. "Vindication" from Abyss, for example. Ms. Liberty x2, Valkyrie (which is x2 with her rez, really), Luminary, Mynx...for 5 merits? You can get 5 for "Alone in the Darque", and all you have to do is beat up Dr. Aeon. "Vigilante Justice", too. Six missions, and Synapse x3, Mynx x2. 7 merits. |
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Villains always get less merits per arc or tf than heroes despite the difficulty being harder and things being more frustrating. They really need to get rid of the whole merits over time metric because it simply doesnt work for balance.
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Oh, and a personal favorite, "Crimson Hunt". Ok, three missions, 4 merits, only one EB...seems not too bad. If Crimson didn't run like a little *****! He escapes and you only get 2 merits. I get that letting him escape is a time-saving option (like oh, Biff). When he barely gets away because you can't navigate the PITA sewer doors as well as he can, it's maddening.
Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
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Wow, someone better call Belle-Reeve and get my admission papers in order. I had no idea that I was 2 different players, dependent on whether I was playing Redside or Blueside.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Villains have the disadvantage but they are better players overall.
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I want to thank EvilRyu for that quick diagnosis that I am somehow 2 separate people. I'm sure the good doctors can see to it that I find balance and become purple.
Comic and Hero/Villain Culture
Saturday January 29th, 2005 (12:37 PM) ~ Monday August 9th, 2010
Those Who Lived It Will Remember Long after your Ban Hammer Crumbles and the servers flicker dead.
We Will Remember This One Moment In Time! ~ Shadow Ravenwolf
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Dude I never said that. What I said was people who played redside tend to be better players. So whether thats you only playing CoV from the start or a player who started playing CoV from Coh. Its just that when you are strictly a CoH player you usually will not be as good of a player. Again thats just been my personal experience over the past 6 years. Thats what I said. Stop trying to twist things around.
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
Wow, someone better call Belle-Reeve and get my admission papers in order. I had no idea that I was 2 different players, dependent on whether I was playing Redside or Blueside.
I want to thank EvilRyu for that quick diagnosis that I am somehow 2 separate people. I'm sure the good doctors can see to it that I find balance and become purple. |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Ryu!
Long time no see- welcome back to the Marketeer's Den!
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
I havent been playing CoX much at all these days. Just waiting on the "REAL" content from going rogue instead of all the fluff we been getting lately. Been playing Aion for the most part. Its alot easier to gear out alts in that game than it is in CoX which is kind of why its held my attention as long as it did. While that game does have its market issues too its kind of opposite to what we have here. Players retardedly list items for way less than what it costs to make the items, undercutting items into the ground. Then we had the issues of bots making it where gathering and selling components was near useless because the bots undercut everything into the ground. Dont get me wrong I like lower prices but not when you are losing 5 to 10 times what it costs to make the items. Now that the botting problem is under control there, I just hope the issue of the retarded undercutters gets resolved at some point.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Ryu!
Long time no see- welcome back to the Marketeer's Den! |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Fluff?!
Have you checked out dual pistols? It is teh sexay!
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Quote:
off tangent, i agree...you dont get as many follow tank, heal aura on auto defenders and the slew of something/i took EMP controllers on red side.....and its unlikely theyll goto redside. |
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Dude I never said that. What I said was people who played redside tend to be better players. So whether thats you only playing CoV from the start or a player who started playing CoV from Coh. Its just that when you are strictly a CoH player you usually will not be as good of a player. Again thats just been my personal experience over the past 6 years. Thats what I said. Stop trying to twist things around.
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On tangent, lets crash the bm!!! Thatll show the devs that still after all this time they havent got a damn clue of what they are talking about. Maybe then they will actually listen to the players that know what the hell they are doing (not me, im sane) with regards to the market. Theyve sorta got Arcanaville as freelance tester, maybe theyll take Smurphy as a market consultant?
From the posts on this thread it sound like that there is:
1. No point in trying to equip villains because the market is terrible redside
2. “Everybody” is going to abandon redside and move blue to market
3. Redside players are so awesome they are gonna lord it over the hero only types and spank them in every task force because the difficulty on redside is so high it has made them into godlike players.
4. Redside is going to basically be abandoned except for maybe trying to do strikeforces.
5. Blueside is boring, the players are bad, the AT’s are bad and the only reason to switch is for people who are already ebills many times over to get more inf for no purpose whatsoever.
A lot of this sounds like the same line of BS that I hear from Mac users. How much better the Mac is (When is exactly the same hardware as a windows machine) etc. Basically it comes across as snobbish.
Now I play almost exclusively blue. I grew up in the Silver Age and I like being a hero. But I like to try different things so I rolled a Merc Mastermind last night and got him up a few levels. I had a pretty good time and got on a team at 2 in the morning CST on Liberty.
I have a couple of hero toons that would make great villains including an insane AI that thinks it’s Nikolai Tesla and that Marconi and Edison are out to get him. I was thinking it might be fun to bring Electrix Destructor over for ...well… a little destruction and finish leveling on Redside.
But from what I’ve read in this thread why should anybody blueside bother or even want to come to red? Should I even bother to keep playing my Mastermind?
“Oh, you’re a hero? Well, you probably suck as a player but maybe you can hang with the awesome kids before we all leave to make fun of you in Paragon City and take over all the markets and flood them with crap no one wants and horde all the stuff they do want.”
Yeah, I can see why redside might be deserted.
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You may want to revisit the posts in this thread if you think that there is a red side players are better than blue side players thing from people. I can only recall one poster spouting something like that.|
Originally Posted by DevilYouKnow
From the posts on this thread it sound like that there is:
1. No point in trying to equip villains because the market is terrible redside 2. Everybody is going to abandon redside and move blue to market 3. Redside players are so awesome they are gonna lord it over the hero only types and spank them in every task force because the difficulty on redside is so high it has made them into godlike players. 4. Redside is going to basically be abandoned except for maybe trying to do strikeforces. 5. Blueside is boring, the players are bad, the ATs are bad and the only reason to switch is for people who are already ebills many times over to get more inf for no purpose whatsoever. A lot of this sounds like the same line of BS that I hear from Mac users. How much better the Mac is (When is exactly the same hardware as a windows machine) etc. Basically it comes across as snobbish. Now I play almost exclusively blue. I grew up in the Silver Age and I like being a hero. But I like to try different things so I rolled a Merc Mastermind last night and got him up a few levels. I had a pretty good time and got on a team at 2 in the morning CST on Liberty. I have a couple of hero toons that would make great villains including an insane AI that thinks its Nikolai Tesla and that Marconi and Edison are out to get him. I was thinking it might be fun to bring Electrix Destructor over for ...well a little destruction and finish leveling on Redside. But from what Ive read in this thread why should anybody blueside bother or even want to come to red? Should I even bother to keep playing my Mastermind? Oh, youre a hero? Well, you probably suck as a player but maybe you can hang with the awesome kids before we all leave to make fun of you in Paragon City and take over all the markets and flood them with crap no one wants and horde all the stuff they do want. Yeah, I can see why redside might be deserted. |
The vast majority of those of us planning to take our villains blue side are doing so because we know from playing our heroes we prefer the activity level of Wentworths. We don't need to move our heroes because they are already blue side.
We also regret having to move because we do like red side content.
Also we plan to mock the silly RPers (not all RPers) who have treated us players as second class citizens because we wanted to play villain ATs.
So to sum up, re-read the thread because your conclusions aren't supported by actually reading it.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Quote:
Hoo boy.|
Originally Posted by DevilYouKnow
From the posts on this thread it sound like that there is:
1. No point in trying to equip villains because the market is terrible redside 2. Everybody is going to abandon redside and move blue to market 3. Redside players are so awesome they are gonna lord it over the hero only types and spank them in every task force because the difficulty on redside is so high it has made them into godlike players. 4. Redside is going to basically be abandoned except for maybe trying to do strikeforces. 5. Blueside is boring, the players are bad, the ATs are bad and the only reason to switch is for people who are already ebills many times over to get more inf for no purpose whatsoever. A lot of this sounds like the same line of BS that I hear from Mac users. How much better the Mac is (When is exactly the same hardware as a windows machine) etc. Basically it comes across as snobbish. Now I play almost exclusively blue. I grew up in the Silver Age and I like being a hero. But I like to try different things so I rolled a Merc Mastermind last night and got him up a few levels. I had a pretty good time and got on a team at 2 in the morning CST on Liberty. I have a couple of hero toons that would make great villains including an insane AI that thinks its Nikolai Tesla and that Marconi and Edison are out to get him. I was thinking it might be fun to bring Electrix Destructor over for ...well a little destruction and finish leveling on Redside. But from what Ive read in this thread why should anybody blueside bother or even want to come to red? Should I even bother to keep playing my Mastermind? Oh, youre a hero? Well, you probably suck as a player but maybe you can hang with the awesome kids before we all leave to make fun of you in Paragon City and take over all the markets and flood them with crap no one wants and horde all the stuff they do want. Yeah, I can see why redside might be deserted. |
Excluding EvilRyu's opinions (which is frequently a good idea), most observations in this thread have to do with the natural consequence of having two mutually exclusive choices which change in value depending on the choices of others. In simple terms, a market functions better because more people participate in it, and more people participate in a market because it functions better. Until now, there has been a limiting factor on this pressure toward the more populated hero market: if you want to play villain archetypes and content, you must participate in the villain market. GR removes that restriction, and without it, the rational choice is to switch to the better functioning market. Of course, not everyone will want to make this choice; there are still reasons to want to play a true villain. But without sufficient participation, the villain market will cease to function as an effective means to buy and sell desirable items.
That said, villain archetypes and content are fun, and most of the people you meet playing villains also play heroes, so it doesn't make much sense to be snobbish about playing villains. If you've never played villains before, and especially if you're used to tank-defender-blaster specialist teams, redside may require a minor attitude adjustment: everyone does damage, you are responsible for keeping yourself alive, and no one has to take point (although brutes like to because it gives them sweet, sweet fury). Other than that, it's all good.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Maybe you are all right and I just got the wrong impression, if so I apologize.
But that was my impression. I have actually heard many redside only players say the exact same thing. I've done ITF's where that kinda thing is said:
"Don't you have any Villians for this?"
"Everybody knows Villians are the best."
I really did enjoy my mastermind last night so I hope I can solo him cause it sounds like thing are gonna get worse in the Rouge Isles!
I'll create the SG with a darky-dark Warshade to hold it for us. Any good name ideas for me to try to grab?
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.