So, something I have always wondered about the PTA
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-04-23 11:05 in Player Questions
It's to distract the citizens from the lack of buses.
Not positive about this, but may be related.
The original devs imagined that big teams would be running around doing missions, then, on the way to the next mission, all street sweep together to the next mission.
They didnt foresee that teams would just ignore missions(and story, content) altogether, and just street sweep, so they ended up incorporating mission bonus xp to move folks into missions(Thus having the playerbase ignore other created content such as hazard zones...).
So, if I had to guess, they probably imagined that people would street sweep between the tram lines...
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I always found that funny, considering there are bus stops all over the place. I wonder if anybody has ever seriously waited around for a ride at one. haha
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
It's to distract the citizens from the lack of buses.
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My Super Speeders have spent a certain amount of time in those bus stops. Not voluntarily.
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Originally Posted by Master-Blade
I always found that funny, considering there are bus stops all over the place. I wonder if anybody has ever seriously waited around for a ride at one. haha
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Well, one in-game explanation might be that the zones connected by the Yellow Line are much lower Security Level than the Green Line. (Of course, that seems backwards, you would think the Yellow Line would be the more dangerous of the two) Anyway, Security Level isn't as important since the zone restrictions were lifted (and the major zones were never restricted anyway) but it's possible that the average citizens are more restricted in their travel for their own safety.
Also, according to the game lore (as posted in ParagonWiki) there was originally a Red Line as well, but it was damaged in the Rikti War, and taken out of service. Parts of the line were transferred to the Yellow and Green lines, though, which suggests that there ARE connections between them, just not where we can see them. (Either that, or they can be connected easily by adding additional track)
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I think this is probably accurate. |
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Not positive about this, but may be related.
The original devs imagined that big teams would be running around doing missions, then, on the way to the next mission, all street sweep together to the next mission. They didnt foresee that teams would just ignore missions(and story, content) altogether, and just street sweep, so they ended up incorporating mission bonus xp to move folks into missions(Thus having the playerbase ignore other created content such as hazard zones...). So, if I had to guess, they probably imagined that people would street sweep between the tram lines... |
Back when CoH launched, the reliance on instanced missions was something that was completely counter to the dogma taught by Everquest and Ultima. Ergo, the original game design focused on making an enviroment friendly to Everquest and Ultima players, something I referenced here: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...5&postcount=11
The design of the city was also further fragmented. New players today might not know that the Trains in South Skyway and Founders Falls are relatively new. If you wanted to get to Faultline, the only way down there for a long time was to run the length of Skyway... and even after the introduction of Pocket D, it wasn't till the Faultline revamp that Pocket D got an exit into the zone. If you wanted to get to Founders Falls, Eden, or the Hive, you had to walk in from Talos... or pray your Supergroup had a teleporter beacon for the zones.
***
Now, while I could be wrong, I believe the separation of the transit lines was originally supposed to be due to the damage wrought by the Rikti Invasion. The transit system we have now is supposedly still being rebuilt, something that's evidenced by going into ruined zones like Outbreak, Eden, or Baumtown that have wrecked monorail lifts.
There's also the problem of working "outside" the War Walls. We, as players, don't really know for certain what lies behind the war-walls of each zone. We can presume that working on re-establishing new or old transit lines is a bit difficult for work crews that can go outside the war walls.
Anyways, Manticore probably would be better suited to answer the lore background, so I'll go throw this in his lore questions thread.
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I've always understood it to be a result of the city picking up the pieces after the Rikti War. Much of the city is still in ruins and what exists of the PTA is simply those parts of the line which were easily rebuilt. The line does extend to places like Boomtown, for example, but those areas are still sealed off.|
Originally Posted by Robert_B
As in Paragon Transit Authority.
Why are not the subway lines (Green/Yellow) connected at common transfers points in the same building? I've always wondered about this, while I cannot claim to have ridden every subway system in the world, everyone that I have been a rider on, if there is multiple lines (say North-South and East West) there have always been transfer points within a single building, yet with CoH the two lines are often separated by most of the zone (take Steel Canyon for example). Has this even been explained at all? it's not a major issue (yes, thats what travel powers are for before anyone says it), but why? the obvious answer is to slow down travel, but is there any lore reason for this? Just wondering. |
We can assume that there will eventually be a line running from Boomtown down through Steel Canyon, Perez Park, Skyway City, and Faultline which would connect the two stops in Steel and Skyway. Unfortunately, funding will not become available until Boomtown and Perez are cleared of critters, so for the moment we have to hoof it between the Yellow and Green Lines.
The shattered bits in Baumtown are part of the old red line. As I recall, destroyed Faultline also had parts of it, which connected to the line in Skyway where they added a station. I used to SS down that line for fun and always wondered where it went, and a little research revealed the old red line. In fact, if you look at the yellow line station in Skyway close enough, you can see that the old red line, now green line, enters under it. Perhaps suggesting that it was originally a junction station.
Also, no one's mentioned it yet, but we have several missions requiring us to board a train for destinations not normally on the game map. So other stations are definitely intended.
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All well and good, but canon & lore aside, this is still a money-making software enterprise, and the way the game makes money is people buying and renewing subscriptions, i.e. spending time in the game. The more time spent in-game, the more money the game makes. |
Originally Posted by je_saist
Now, while I could be wrong, I believe the separation of the transit lines was originally supposed to be due to the damage wrought by the Rikti Invasion.
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So, as I said, canon & lore may have something to do with it, but giving players another mandatory time-sink by forcing them to travel from one station to the other as part of the "commute" also makes sense in a real-world kinda way.
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Not positive about this, but may be related.
The original devs imagined that big teams would be running around doing missions, then, on the way to the next mission, all street sweep together to the next mission. They didnt foresee that teams would just ignore missions(and story, content) altogether, and just street sweep, so they ended up incorporating mission bonus xp to move folks into missions(Thus having the playerbase ignore other created content such as hazard zones...). So, if I had to guess, they probably imagined that people would street sweep between the tram lines... |
Considering who was in charge back then and some of the comments that his new dev team said about one of the problems Champions had and one of the problams STO is currently having, I'd say your statement is very accurate.
See a few months ago when people were complaining about the content gaps in Champions their devs said they never expected players would use their travel powers to hop from mission to mission. They expected that everyone would stay on the ground and slug their way slowly thru hundreds of spawns, and doing so would provide the players the exp needed to level up thru and past the content gaps.
STO is also having the same problem being content lite with the exception that in that game the random encounters are all instanced "Deep Space Encounters".
End result is that everyone knows that a certain developer never learns from his mistakes.
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Totally agree, and I think the OP does as well. But a well put-together game ought to have an in-game reason for that sort of thing. The city has changed a fair bit since 2004, so at this point it's sometimes hard to tell if something was explained away properly back in the day and forgotten about, or never adequately explained at all.
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Originally Posted by RobertoLyon
All well and good, but canon & lore aside, this is still a money-making software enterprise, and the way the game makes money is people buying and renewing subscriptions, i.e. spending time in the game. The more time spent in-game, the more money the game makes.
So, as I said, canon & lore may have something to do with it, but giving players another mandatory time-sink by forcing them to travel from one station to the other as part of the "commute" also makes sense in a real-world kinda way. |
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Quoted for truth, unfortunately.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Considering who was in charge back then and some of the comments that his new dev team said about one of the problems Champions had and one of the problams STO is currently having, I'd say your statement is very accurate.
See a few months ago when people were complaining about the content gaps in Champions their devs said they never expected players would use their travel powers to hop from mission to mission. They expected that everyone would stay on the ground and slug their way slowly thru hundreds of spawns, and doing so would provide the players the exp needed to level up thru and past the content gaps. STO is also having the same problem being content lite with the exception that in that game the random encounters are all instanced "Deep Space Encounters". End result is that everyone knows that a certain developer never learns from his mistakes. |
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That sounds more like a dodge they thought up to cover bad choices. The Champions content gap was caused by cutting experience down to one quarter at the last minute before release. And until they patched (well post this change), the per kill XP was virtually non-existent. The original intent in that game was not to have street sweeping XP be significant assuming anyone there had basic 3rd grade math skills.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Considering who was in charge back then and some of the comments that his new dev team said about one of the problems Champions had and one of the problams STO is currently having, I'd say your statement is very accurate.
See a few months ago when people were complaining about the content gaps in Champions their devs said they never expected players would use their travel powers to hop from mission to mission. They expected that everyone would stay on the ground and slug their way slowly thru hundreds of spawns, and doing so would provide the players the exp needed to level up thru and past the content gaps. |
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It probably would have had a better chance or working had they left out travel powers. Of course, can you imagine running to a freaking mish in IP without travel powers? One of the things that kept me out of wow was the whole mount thing.|
Originally Posted by RobertoLyon
All well and good, but canon & lore aside, this is still a money-making software enterprise, and the way the game makes money is people buying and renewing subscriptions, i.e. spending time in the game. The more time spent in-game, the more money the game makes.
So, as I said, canon & lore may have something to do with it, but giving players another mandatory time-sink by forcing them to travel from one station to the other as part of the "commute" also makes sense in a real-world kinda way. |
The learning process for them developing the game started after it was released. Hence the purple patch... and regen, lol... and ed... and gdn
Releasing this game was like giving a 2 year old a dinky car, sure he might roll it on the ground, but he is just as likely to stick it in his mouth. The problem is how the devs reacted when we didnt do what they expected us to do...
I have the impression that the segregation of the green and yellow lines was partly intended to tend to segregate lower-level players from the higher-level zones. You could still get to the higher-level zones, sure, but generally it was more trouble, and it was unlikely to happen by accident.
Steel, the mid-level zone, was where they met (no green line in Skyway yet).
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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I agree with you, however, would like to ask, how many times did you take a low lvl mish in Steel that sent you right to the lvl 14 nazi's?|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
I have the impression that the segregation of the green and yellow lines was partly intended to tend to segregate lower-level players from the higher-level zones. You could still get to the higher-level zones, sure, but generally it was more trouble, and it was unlikely to happen by accident.
Steel, the mid-level zone, was where they met (no green line in Skyway yet). |
That was probably part of the thought process. I just dont think it was fully thought out. Of course, that is me saying this here, where hindsight is 20/20...
Robert_B, Sorry for the thread jack. BTW, looks like you got some Andy Frost on your avatar.
In Lore, was Croatoa originally on the Redline? I remember something in game about it "being reconnected".
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
I don't know about lore-wise, but this is something I was complaining about just recently, having made my first hero since City of Villains came out. Paragon City is so spread out and annoying to get from one place to another in, and one of the main problems is a lack of easy transfer spot between Green and Blue lines, as opposed to the ferry in the Rogue Isles which is the only method of transportation needed to access all level 15+ zones.
I imagine it was indeed an attempt to slow down travel, but these days that concept is very backwards and kind of irritating. They really need to add in some sort of central station from which you can travel to pretty much any zone directly, especially those hazard zones.
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There is one. It's called a Super Group Base.
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Originally Posted by Mnemnosyne
I don't know about lore-wise, but this is something I was complaining about just recently, having made my first hero since City of Villains came out. Paragon City is so spread out and annoying to get from one place to another in, and one of the main problems is a lack of easy transfer spot between Green and Blue lines, as opposed to the ferry in the Rogue Isles which is the only method of transportation needed to access all level 15+ zones.
I imagine it was indeed an attempt to slow down travel, but these days that concept is very backwards and kind of irritating. They really need to add in some sort of central station from which you can travel to pretty much any zone directly, especially those hazard zones. |
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It's mandated in the Paragon City building codes, as part of a plan to improve the cardiovascular fitness of Paragon City's inhabitants by making them walk further. The same codes prohibit elevators from connecting more than 2 floors.
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Originally Posted by Robert_B
Why are not the subway lines (Green/Yellow) connected at common transfers points in the same building?
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Wanna go from the Bronx to Brooklyn? Simple, transfer in Manhattan. Just get off at the Cloisters and walk to Battery Park for the transfer.
If any civil engineer did that in real life, they'd be executed by the state.
Thus it is with the PTA.
As an exercise to the reader, tell me how many lines run through Skyway... no, don't look at a map. Go there and count the number of lines, how many above ground and below ground stations (yes, below ground stations) there are and where they leave and enter the zone. Go go go.
When you come back, I'll have the civil engineer who designed it strapped to a chair and I'll let you throw the switch.
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Heh, punishing the civil engineer who designed the tram lines will have to take a back seat to mercilessly pummeling the one who designed the roads. MUCH bigger ignoramus. 
Dec out.
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I'll vote for the architect who designed the city's office buildings first. I mean, I take the elevator up to the second floor, enter a room that requires me to turn left, go up some stairs, down a hall to the right, turn left, down another flight of stairs and then turn right, only to find a hallway that leads to another room, in which I have to either go down a flight of stairs and turn left or climb over a railing and turn right, then go up some stairs and down a hallway to the left, then down another flight of stairs and turn right in order to find the elevator to the third floor.|
Originally Posted by Decorum
Heh, punishing the civil engineer who designed the tram lines will have to take a back seat to mercilessly pummeling the one who designed the roads. MUCH bigger ignoramus.
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After that, you complain about the roads?
As in Paragon Transit Authority.
Why are not the subway lines (Green/Yellow) connected at common transfers points in the same building? I've always wondered about this, while I cannot claim to have ridden every subway system in the world, everyone that I have been a rider on, if there is multiple lines (say North-South and East West) there have always been transfer points within a single building, yet with CoH the two lines are often separated by most of the zone (take Steel Canyon for example).
Has this even been explained at all? it's not a major issue (yes, thats what travel powers are for before anyone says it), but why? the obvious answer is to slow down travel, but is there any lore reason for this?
Just wondering.