Stealth's Movement Penalty

Running the Stealth power from the Concealment pool lowers Run and Fly speeds by 35%. What is the justification for this penalty?

Stealth has almost been completely replaced by the Stealth IOs, it doesn't offer complete invisibility on its own, it uses quite a bit of end (compared to Combat Jumping, another power pool tier 1) and yet it still needs a penalty?

tl;dr version: Why does Stealth have a movement penalty?

It has *not* been replaced by stealth IOs for the vast majority of players. Not everyone has 240 merits or a couple of hundred million Inf to spend on one.

Justification? Stealth is you being sneaky, taking care to not make noise or to be seen. That tends to slow people much more than having a Cloaking Device or being shrouded in Steamy Mist or whatever.

The movement penalty is nothing, really, compared to the safety it brings while traveling (especially on a character with Ninja Run + Hurdle for their travel power). And who cares about its -fly speed penalty? You don't need it while flying, anyways, since the only things that are dangerous to you while traveling are Sniper types, which see through all stealth anyways. And even a single Endurance Reduction at DO or SO levels is enough that the End drain won't likely kill you forget to turn it off when you start fighting.

Cause without the penalty it's too powerful for a cheapy pool power. Might as well ask why invisibility can't attack? Or why invis is supressed during attacks?

IO plus the Stealth power is what I tend to do if I'm making a ghost. I should also take hover so I don't stub my toe and die, but that's too many pools for it.

@JD: Sorry if the word "replaced" was a little strong, I'm just noting that an IO that takes up only a single enhancement slot gives the same functionality that an entire power gives.

Stealth is a power choice, one of your 4 pool choices and costs .35 endurance. I'm merely thinking that those conditions make the movement penalty a little bit overkill.

You're right, its not a *big* deal, with some slotting you can take care of the End issue and taking Swift can help negate the movement penalty, I just think the movement penalty seems like a leftover decision from a bygone era of CoH.

Fly used to be slower and had a huge endurance cost because it was so safe. Now the end cost is roughly equivalent to other travel powers and most recently its speed was buffed. Hover was in the same boat, it was painfully slow to make up for the fact that it gave defense and increased maneuverability, but recently the devs upped its speed as well.

I like Stealth, especially for the Ice/Ice Dominator I'm leveling right now who is sort of a Wraith-like character. I plan on going Stealth + Stealth IO for a great alternative to Invisibility. I'm not complaining in the "REMOVE IT NAO OR I LEAVE" sense, merely observing something I think is odd.

@Postagulus. I wouldn't ask why Invisibility can't attack, it makes you completely undetectable by 99% of the foes in the game, that enough is the benefit. And Stealth/Invis suppressing when you attack just makes sense; invisible or not, if you punch someone they know you're there.

The reason I asked here instead of just going ahead and posting this in Suggestions or PMing a redname was I thought maybe I should get a little education by some wiser players before I go spouting off, so thanks for the advice guys!

Actually I agree with the OP, stealth could really use some dev love. I know that I'll never take it, unless I need a set mule and I've allready taken all of the other power that'll take that particular set.

I wonder if it could be changed to suppress the movement penalty and some of the endurance cost under the same conditions that part of the defense is suppressed.

Concealment -Stealth, the pool power, gives a movement penalty for concept.

If you can afford a Stealth IO at lvl 6, then you eliminate the penalty. Otherwise you have to live with it for a bit.

Concealment - Invisibility, is different than double stacked stealth, it creates an affecting only self status. It has its advatages for people that want to leverage its power.

I think the way the powers are right now, give the greatest benefit. Lots of options for the informed player.

Lots of ins, lots of outs, lots of what-have-yous, new information has come to light.

I have only once bought a first available, Level 15, stealth IO, and Unbounded Leap. They are a little steep. For the average player, who doesn't come to this forum and generally has less than a million until their a 20 or so, They wouldn't be able to get the 120+ together at level 12.

Oh, and the devs should remove all stealth sounds. Oh, they bug me.

I picked up Stealth for the first time in 4 years and its -slow penalty sucks more than I remembered it. Being the experienced player I am now, I allocated 3 slots in Swift. However, even with 3 level 50 Run IOs in Swift it still feels so frickin' slow. I find that most of the time, I'm keeping Sprint on and I know that's sucking endurance too. I've been weighting the possibly of either adding a slot to Sprint (default is filled with a Stealth IO) for a EndRed IO the next time I use a Respec or just ditching it.

Personally, I think the majority of the power pools need revising (as in a number tweak). Things like Stealth, Maneuver and Tactics, heck even Tough and Weave, that have a massive endurance cost to them. Yes, they provide benefits, but it still seems odd that a power that costs so much end give, comparitively, not as large a benefit.
I mean, it takes up a power pick, requires slotting, and has a massive endurance cost...
Surely power pools are something you should want to take, and have to decide to take them or primary/secondary powers? Limited power choice factors into it too, surely?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Keep in mind that Stealth will also accept defense sets, including the luck of the gambler recharge bonus, gift of the ancients move speed bonus, and the Kismet tohit bonus.

If you PvP it also gets you invisibility which holds a second Gambler recharge, and together they unlock Phase.

For those who don't know, in PvP phase is rather cool because two phased characters can hit each other. Shame the Carnies weren't modded to use this. I'd love ot have them phase out, click my phase and keep pounding them.

Anyway, precisely because it is a power and not an enhancement it has versatility and potential that the stealth IOs alone will never have. Also, as mentioned it stacks with the stealth IO to provide complete invisibility (in PvE) against enemies that are subject to stealth.

To the poster above who mentioned snipers, they do not ignore stealth they just have a very high perception range. Knives of Artemis and Rikti Drones however, do ignore stealth.

On some builds, even that slight 2.25% defense boost can be handy. On my ninjas MM, it becomes the full 4.5% I think, since she rarely uses her personal attacks on anybody.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JD_Gumby You don't need it while flying, anyways, since the only things that are dangerous to you while traveling are Sniper types, which see through all stealth anyways.

Is there any justification for the Snipers being able to see you? I think that is somehow very lame.

edit: Just read Gavin's post. So they're not perfectly stealth piercing? That's a relief.

it's a great IO mule or if I want to stealth a DO NOT WANT mission since a lot of my characters take Super Speed