An honest question about defense debuffs as secondary effects

Could someone please expain to me the value in defense debuffs as secondary effects, beyond the obvious that enemies will be easier to hit? I'm referring specifically to when they are used as a secondary effect here, and not to sets like radiation emission. In other words, why should I be excited in the least about a secondary effect that allows me to easier hit my enemies when I've already demonstrated that ability by - you know - hitting them?

For example, Sonic Blast from the blaster sets gets -res as a secondary effect, which helps increase damage output by bringing down an enemy's resistance. Fire gets extra damage to increase damage output. Ice Blast gets slows and Energy Blast gets knockback, both to help increase mitigation. Assault Rifle, on the other hand, gets -def to help with.... what? I mean, I can already hit them reliably when the secondary effect kicks in, and no matter how easily I can hit them I'll still be doing the same amount of damage to them.

I suppose I could slot one attack extra heavy for accuracy and then not slot accuracy so much in the others, but I don't really feel slot-starved enough to justify that. One Acc SO is more than enough to hit most enemies in the game, my mind really boggles when I realize that Assault Rifle (and other sets like Katana, not just picking on blaster sets, here) already comes with higher accuracy built into each attack! What? So why then do I even need -def as a secondary effect?

Teams first came to mind when I thought about it. A -def debuff would help teammates hit easier, but then most people I team with also slot accuracies in their attacks, and have virtually no problem hitting enemies either. Throw in a Radiation Defender or Controller with the -def toggle and -def secondary effect loses even more value. Then I remember that fewer than half the attacks in the typical -def set are aoe and I'm left scratching my head wondering how - unless my teammates are targeting through me - this benefits the team much at all.

I suppose it could help hit higher level enemies or higher ranked enemies, but then again, those same enemies will have increased resistance to the favored damage type of -def sets: lethal. I look at my level 40 warshade (for example) who does slows and negative energy typed damage, and realize he can cut through x8 spawns at roughly twice the speed as my level 50 peacebringer who does -def and smashing typed damage, and I wonder how on earth they can be considered equivalent secondary effect/damage type combinations. If -def came coupled with less resisted damage types, and smashing/lethal came with more damaging/mitigating effects like -res or slows, then I could see the logic, but as it's most commonly implemented I'm afraid I just don't get it.

Could someone help me get it? I'm missing something key, here, and it's driving me nuts.

Not hitting stuff lowers damage, so -defense ups damage...and does so particularly well vs. Shifty/High defense foes. Hit them once, the next -defense is easier to land, as is damage...soon enough the high defense enemy's mean of survival is nixed. They also act as a ghetto +acc when the team is under a -tohit debuff. The team may be a lousier shot, but the target is easier to hit, so it evens out.

Long story short, you answered your own question. It helps you and your team continue to hit a mob.

Now admittedly, with accuracy slotting it's almost always overkill, but then you get into the real benefit of having a -defense secondary effect: slotting a ton of IO procs into the attacks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

My take my be a little different, but I think -def is more about the duration of time. An example I've noticed with my BS/DA even with Assault and Tactics, I was still missing quite a bit in my first few attacks. Finally, when recipes and bonuses came into play my acc went way up which allowed me to hit whirling sword, slice, disembowel then headbash, parry, slash (for an extra bit of dmg and -def) then my two big hits would come back around, disembowel and headbash. If i missed my end could be screwed, but with -def, u will hit. There are toons that do miss, and of course when they miss they're losing end as well. My scrap sucks end like no other so when i WAS missing I hated it. I didn't know how crucial missing was but down the line of attacks, when ur using -def u no longer miss and it saves end. Recently, i've been making toons with -res. I gotta admit I definitely prefer -res over -def. It's always about dmg/sec. Make the gameplay faster.

The real benefit from -defense is when you can't reliably hit the enemy. Good accuracy slotting means you'll generally hit +0 or +1 enemies 95% of the time, but that's not true of +3s and +4s or high defense enemies. Unless you have a lot of +to-hit, you will run into enemies you have a less than capped chance of hitting and -defense helps in those cases.

That said, -defense is pretty much the least useful secondary effect since in the vast majority of cases a well-built character will have no problem hitting.

At low levels, if you have an incomplete attack chain and some veteran attacks/temp powers, it's useful to smack the enemy with your -def powers, then use those unslottable temp/vet powers. Earth Control at pre-pet levels really benefits from that, I find.

-Def attacks that require a To Hit in the first place do represent something of a Catch-22, its true.

One situation I did find them very handy was fighting Paragon protectors with my Poison Mastermind and Traps Corrupter. By the time the Protectors activate their insane defence god mode I'd already hit them with Envenom and Acid Mortar, and they were not impossible to finish off.

Oh, the other one is for low damage solo-ers who can then work Sands of Mu vet power into their attack chain. Rad Blast Defedners, for example, will love Sands of Mu if fighting Rikti, who are vulnerable to negative but resistant to energy.

-Def also allows Io slotting for the Achilles Heel -Res proc and three damage procs I think.

Cascading defense failure can work for you just as much as it can for mobs.
There's a big difference between hitting 50% and hitting 95% of the time. Against enemies that are higher con and/or high defense, stacking -def debuffs can make that difference. Admittedly it's not as useful in the later game, but in the early to mid game -def debuffs can be very useful.

Edit: Late game the -def powers can of course be used to stack procs.

It's worth pointing out that many secondary effects are equally, or even less, effective. Sonic's -res is the Cadillac of secondary effect debuffs, much better than the others, generally speaking. -def isn't so bad if you compare it to, well, anything other than Sonic.

So it's not really that -def is undesirable or sub-par, so much as it's "wow, Sonic's -res debuff is, um, really strong."

Useful if you've a few of the Vet attacks as well. Any of my chars with a reliable -Def debuff tend to use the Vet attacks a bit throughout their career (my Illusion/Stormie for example loves the Blackwand after a Freezing Rain and my Grav/TA likes the Acid Arrow -> Nemesis Staff combo against ghosties). Any that don't, the Vet attacks tend to be shelved by level 20.

Pretty much the only use I have for -def is the achilles heel proc.

From my experience on a Rad/Kin corr, most of the time the -def is more or less meaningless. Meaningless because of accuracy from sets, slotting, tohit buffs, etc.

However, when it really counts is when I really need it to count. I don't really notice it against normal enemies, but whenever we're fighting something like Nemesis, Cimerorans or an AV with a +def godmode, its very noticeable.

Plus IO proccing oppertunities for great justice.

I definately notice the cumulative effects of -def when playing my mercenary mastermind.

It works.

But yeah, it's definately not as noticeable or powerful as -res or knockback.

Many people don't notice -Def on teams because there is no "You hit but you would've missed if it wasn't for this Def debuff!"-message above the enemies' heads.

I find the -def in Burst very helpful when soloing, which I tend to do a lot.