Combat Jumping vs. Stealth and Invisibility
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-04-02 16:53 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
They actually have the same in-combat defense (Stealth gives a little more against the first attack though). Personally I take CJ on nearly all of my characters simply because I find the immobilization protection and extra mobility in missions to be useful.
Sorry, didn't create a nice chart of numbers, but...
Combat Jumping is extremely less costly on Endurance for the same amount of +Def while 'in combat'. (.07/s versus .33/s) That pretty much sells it for me.
Also, when you have sufficent funds, the 'stealth' aspect of Stealth can be replicated with a +Stealth IO.
As for Invisibility, most maps can be ran to the end merely with 'stealth' (via a Stealth IO) and/or by popping a few purples and 'running it' to the end and finding a place to hide and ditch aggro once you're there.
That's my thoughts on the matter.
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The problem is that you can't prove this. It's impossible.|
Originally Posted by Fusion_7
Show me the raw numbers on what defense it will give me to help me understand why I should take Stealth, Invis or Superior Invis "over" Combat Jumping. Then maybe I can see the errors of my way of thinking.
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If anything, analysis will demonstrate that you have more reason to take Combat Jumping than Stealth.
CJ has an endurance cost of .075 end/sec. Stealth has an endurance cost of .325 end/sec.
CJ and Stealth provide the exact same in combat defense bonuses.
CJ provides additional mobility and immobilization protection, neither of which are easily replicable with IOs (+spd doesn't give you additional turning or height). SJ provides stealth, which is incredibly easy to replicate with IOs (Celerity and/or Unbounded Leap Stealth proc).
CJ can accept defense buff, jumping, and universal movement IO sets. Stealth can only accept defense buff sets.
CJ trumps Stealth in every aspect.
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To nit pick:|
Originally Posted by Umbral
CJ trumps Stealth in every aspect.
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Stealth has higher defense value vs the first attack. in every other aspect, CJ not only trumps stealth, it stomps stealth. And this one area is basically irrelevant for all intents and purposes.
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Except, of course, Combat Jumping is completely and utterly useless when going from A to B without fighting or getting tagged by nasties along the way (except, of course, for snipers and Rikti Drones; fortunately they're not everywhere). Yeah, I know it's not as sexy as extra combat mobility or decent immobilization protection (7.44 on my L41 Blastard, I see), but it is useful
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
in every other aspect, CJ not only trumps stealth, it stomps stealth.
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The problem with this point of view is that it is similarly simply to just get a Celerity or Unbounded Leap +Stealth IO and just use that. You can just put that in Sprint and, amazingly enough, you've got permanent Stealth now!|
Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
Except, of course, Combat Jumping is completely and utterly useless when going from A to B without fighting or getting tagged by nasties along the way (except, of course, for snipers and Rikti Drones; fortunately they're not everywhere). Yeah, I know it's not as sexy as extra combat mobility or decent immobilization protection (7.44 on my L41 Blastard, I see), but it is useful
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As I said before, the Stealth aspects of Stealth are easy to replicate. The only time that you might actually want to get Stealth is if you are forgoing IOs completely and want to get the benefits of the Stealth. With IOs, Stealth useless. Without IOs, Stealth moderately less useless.
Don't forget that Stealth debuffs your run speed, while CJ buffs your jump height
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There's a bit more to it than just stealth.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
The problem with this point of view is that it is similarly simply to just get a Celerity or Unbounded Leap +Stealth IO and just use that. You can just put that in Sprint and, amazingly enough, you've got permanent Stealth now!
As I said before, the Stealth aspects of Stealth are easy to replicate. The only time that you might actually want to get Stealth is if you are forgoing IOs completely and want to get the benefits of the Stealth. With IOs, Stealth useless. Without IOs, Stealth moderately less useless. |
Full mob invis is the important part. Stealth+stealthIO gives this, and this alone makes Stealth worthwhile (trumping any numbers CJ might offer). Numbers can be obtained from a lot of sources; agro control through full invis is worth a lot more.
For my perspective, one of the best things you can have in any game is options. Every character I make has some form of full invis (personally I prefer superspeed+IO). It's quite simply that useful.
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On the other hand, so does Super Speed + Stealth IO |
Originally Posted by Sandolphan
Full mob invis is the important part. Stealth+stealthIO gives this, and this alone makes Stealth worthwhile
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Originally Posted by Umbral
The problem with this point of view is that it is similarly simply to just get a Celerity or Unbounded Leap +Stealth IO and just use that. You can just put that in Sprint and, amazingly enough, you've got permanent Stealth now!
As I said before, the Stealth aspects of Stealth are easy to replicate. The only time that you might actually want to get Stealth is if you are forgoing IOs completely and want to get the benefits of the Stealth. With IOs, Stealth useless. Without IOs, Stealth moderately less useless. |
I agree completely, and I think the problem with this is the actual Stealth power.
It's too weak, doesn't grant enough actual stealth for the cost and can't even be stacked with Invisibility from it's own Power Pool.
And then when you use Stealth, it actually makes you slower and doesn't provide any -Threat modifier.
Even if the +stealth IOs weren't in the picture, I'd be hard pressed to come up with a reason to take this on a character outside of wanting an LoTG Rech mule.
In my opinion stealth needs to either do more for you and/or be cheaper END cost wise OR be stackable with Invis for it to be more competitive.
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Stacking wit Invisibility wouldn't do much unless both powers were significantly buffed. Invisibility alone (or Stealth + IO) will hide you from everything except GMs, Turrets, and Snipers (and Rikti Drones/Rularuu Sentries, but those ignore stealth completely). You'd need more than double that much stealth radius to pas by GMs and Turrets undetected, and triple for Snipers.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
It's too weak, doesn't grant enough actual stealth for the cost and can't even be stacked with Invisibility from it's own Power Pool.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
And then when you use Stealth, it actually makes you slower and doesn't provide any -Threat modifier.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
It's worth noting that if you ever plan to zone PvP, Stealth is vastly more important. *You'll have CJ anyway because you need SJ for PvP.
If you're a Stalker in a PvP zone and you don't have both the +Stealth IO and Stealth, you're going to get torn to bits. *Even if you're not a Stalker, you'll want some +Stealth so that teams of Dominators, Blasters, Scrappers, and Corruptots won't target you from far away and damage spike you before you can react.
In PvE, however, it's not nearly as good as CJ.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Stacking wit Invisibility wouldn't do much unless both powers were significantly buffed. Invisibility alone (or Stealth + IO) will hide you from everything except GMs, Turrets, and Snipers (and Rikti Drones/Rularuu Sentries, but those ignore stealth completely). You'd need more than double that much stealth radius to pas by GMs and Turrets undetected, and triple for Snipers.
TBH, -Threat doesn't do much, as far as I've seen. You can't have less than 1.0 Threat, which most ATs have as their base (and I don't know of any +Threat powers). The ATs with more than 1.0 base Threat tend to want the aggro. |
All good points, my main point still stands though - in PVE stealth as a power is lacking.
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glad someone said it|
Originally Posted by Silverado
Don't forget that Stealth debuffs your run speed, while CJ buffs your jump height
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unsuppressed movement ftw
reason to take Stealth and Invis...uh...maybe PvP Stalker or simply a IO mule for a LotG 7.5% rech
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...or you want to position yourself for best short cone usage, snipe from within range of your other attacks, travel through a zone without having to fight everything along the way (or at least getting tagged by everything other than Snipers and Rikti Drones along the way - many times I've been almost killed just passing through areas without those two), etc.
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
reason to take Stealth and Invis...uh...maybe PvP Stalker or simply a IO mule for a LotG 7.5% rech
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If you have 1.0 base Threat and activate Super Speed, the Combat Numbers report a Threat level of 0.0
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Stacking wit Invisibility wouldn't do much unless both powers were significantly buffed. Invisibility alone (or Stealth + IO) will hide you from everything except GMs, Turrets, and Snipers (and Rikti Drones/Rularuu Sentries, but those ignore stealth completely). You'd need more than double that much stealth radius to pas by GMs and Turrets undetected, and triple for Snipers.
TBH, -Threat doesn't do much, as far as I've seen. You can't have less than 1.0 Threat, which most ATs have as their base (and I don't know of any +Threat powers). The ATs with more than 1.0 base Threat tend to want the aggro. |
@Roderick
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Hasn't that already been covered at least twice in this thread already? Super Speed, or +Stealth IO, or both.
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Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
...or you want to position yourself for best short cone usage, snipe from within range of your other attacks, travel through a zone without having to fight everything along the way (or at least getting tagged by everything other than Snipers and Rikti Drones along the way - many times I've been almost killed just passing through areas without those two), etc.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
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or pick up tp on the toon you are power leveling yourself with so the lowbie doesn't have to run through PI.|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Hasn't that already been covered at least twice in this thread already? Super Speed, or +Stealth IO, or both.
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of course now that someone started this thread, i see castle nerfing the hell out of CJ because "it is unbalanced" in some way. please, someone send him some krispy kreams to distract him.
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Maybe if you were Fire Melee...I guess, since Breath of Fire is a pitiful 15ft with a 30 degree cone. With the other exception of Throw Spines...which is 30ft and 90 degrees...every other ranged cone is 40-60ft with the same 30 degrees. Positioning yourself for a short range cone is pretty easy without the Stealth. (I guess I could add Siren's Song to the exception with it's 50 degree cone...but it's not really a damage attack)|
Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
...or you want to position yourself for best short cone usage, snipe from within range of your other attacks, travel through a zone without having to fight everything along the way (or at least getting tagged by everything other than Snipers and Rikti Drones along the way - many times I've been almost killed just passing through areas without those two), etc.
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Snipe within range of your other attacks...a lot of range attacks are 80 feet...so yeah, Stealth is not a issue.
The only time I've even remotely have had that problem is because I was on a low lvl in a high lvl zone...other than that, I know how to make my way around a zone and avoid pretty much everything regardless of travel.
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0.0 Threat would result in critters ALWAYS ignoring you, as far as we understand the threat calculations. This is clearly false, so there is a lower limit on Threat not displayed in the CA window.
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Originally Posted by Roderick
If you have 1.0 base Threat and activate Super Speed, the Combat Numbers report a Threat level of 0.0
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Yeah! Group Fly ftw!|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
glad someone said it
unsuppressed movement ftw reason to take Stealth and Invis...uh...maybe PvP Stalker or simply a IO mule for a LotG 7.5% rech |
Edit: ;-)
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Re: Stealth IO
I've slotted this in Sprint and taken stealth making my toon able to ghost missions. The 120 seconds of stealth after the IO is turned off pushed beyond powers that won't allow it. Go into the dead room in AE and you'll still be stealthed. I'm planning on adding the IO to CJ, not for anything but the stealth. [and for a cheap stealth IO that'll only last 2 min on you, put the one that looks like a clock into Rec Friend. Those are cheap as dirt and plentiful.]
Re: Stealth the power in PvP
Don't make me laugh. Sup Invis is the best stealth and you're still stuck out like a sore thumb. Stealth is so nerfed in PvP that anything is past the point of diminishing returns. And Sup Invis + a Stealth IO just hits the cap.
Disclaimer: I dont' PvP. I've done it some, but I suck at it. More of a slaughter than a deathmatch.
So, out of my 10 Toons, I probably have 7 of them with Combat Jumping. The ones with stealth either have that as a primary or I decided to stick with stealth and invis. To be honest, I keep trying to justify taking stealth or invis "over" combat jumping. This is only if you "had" to pick one or the other. This does not pertain to having both power sets. I find there are some good benefits with having stealth, invis or superior invis like being able to sneak to the blinky at the end of a mish or go right to the big baddie without having to slug your way through trenches of mobs. I also find that having Combat Jumping with the bonus to defense it gives you can also be very helpful and beneficial.
In the end, I normally always lean towards Combat Jumping because it seems to give me more overall defense versus having some stealth which makes it harder for enemies to make good contact with you but I am not sure or convinced that it is better on the defensive side. I need someone out there to prove me wrong and say, take stealth, invis and/or superior invis and fully slot out and it will be much better than a fully slotted Combat Jumping. Show me the raw numbers on what defense it will give me to help me understand why I should take Stealth, Invis or Superior Invis "over" Combat Jumping. Then maybe I can see the errors of my way of thinking.