Why is it harder to revamp a zone than to make a new one?
I always do either some of Striga or Croatoa and occasionally both.
Those zones feel the most coherent contentwise (even if I loath Redcaps). Seriously, I wish the other zones had similar content.
The new zones have at least some meaning for made areas, but the old zones feel like they were made big for the sake of big. I can imagine Jack Emmert sitting on his chair, head tilting by the force of his "vision" that the players would wow at the "vast explorable areas" that just consist of copy-paste work with some bumps for "variation". Exploration is meaningless because you already know that behind that lowres rock there is nothing but same dull empty areas, and maybe a CoT spawn. Whoo, immersive.
Seriously, I like Dark Astoria, and agree that adding some contacts and a TF without changing anything else would be a welcome addition. But compare it to Striga Isle. or Croatoa. Neat zones with a theme, some contacts with pretty cool arcs, and a TF. Are they used much more than DA? At least Croatoa is accessible in one hop by train from most of the 'high-end' zones.
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I suppose it depends on your definitions of "used" and "much more".
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We discussed this on the EU in this thread, back when Positron made the comment. Here's my initial argument from that thread:
Commenting on the following comment by Positron:
[ QUOTE ]
Right now, we'd rather add zones, since a revamp takes almost as much time.
[/ QUOTE ]
That it takes as much effort to revamp an existing zone as it takes to make a brand new one is no doubt true. It is also irrelevant and misses the point: a zone revamp gives a better result than a new zone does.
There are several reasons why this is so.
First of all, the game -- and particularly hero-side -- has too many zones as it is. The more zones there are, the more you spread the players out among them and the emptier the game appears.
Next, revamping an old zone will get rid of an eyesore. The old hazard zones are ugly, and they're also bland, boring and dull. Players are still sent into Boomtown and Dark Astoria by the mission system, and they still spend a lot of time in King's Row, the Hollows, Perez and Skyway. More importantly, people will judge the game's graphics as much on its ugliest zone as on its prettiest one.
Then, there is the fact that the existing zones have a presence and, for lack of a better term, "cultural baggage." People care about them; there's a sense of "here" to them: they're tied into the game world in a way that a new zone just can not match. And people like that. It makes the game feel more real. Ask a player which of Perez Park and Blood Bay feels more connected to the rest of the game, and I'll bet you dollars to dimes that 80% will answer Perez.
Further, revamping an existing zone brings with it a feeling of change and evolution that adding new zones lego-like to the rest of the game can't match. When zones change and develope it makes the city feel alive. It makes us feel that things are happening, that there is history. It help build the game's character. It strengthens the feel of Paragon City and the Rogue Isles. It is good storytelling.
Finally, just ask yourself which were best received and turned out to be the more popular: the revamped Faultline and Rikti War Site, or new zones like Cimeroia, Recluse's Victory and Croatoa?
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I think it's also a matter of how often players are sent there to do stuff. I would say Perez is more "connected" than Bloody Bay (and not just because Perez has four entrances, not counting cross-zone teleports), but I'd also say Croatoa is more "connected" than Eden.
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Eden is remote, but it's still part of the "mindscape" of Paragon City. It's tied in to the whole Devouring Earth storyline which is city-wide. Croatao doesn't tie in to anything outside of itself. There's no connection to Paragon City beyond the railroad station -- it might just as well have been some remote Irish town, accessed through a Midnighter Club door. (That would actually have made a lot more sense in many ways.)
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There's little connecting Croatoa to Irish mythology either really, there's no bearing between the two other than the names. Tuatha De Danann are more akin to fey folk in most Irish myths (like most myths and legends they aren't consistently portrayed in them either, but I've never seen them referred to as pumpkin headed fire monsters)
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What if one developer put in a few hours a week to Boomtown? Maybe every patch release one or two buildings change, maybe some construction sites move, etc. Something to show progress rather than this big bombed-out landscape with buildings that have been on fire for 6 years?
So happy they didn't go with that, given the usual approach at creating "remote Irish towns" (ie cloth caps, fiddles, bizarre accents and red headed cailins everywhere).
There's little connecting Croatoa to Irish mythology either really, there's no bearing between the two other than the names. Tuatha De Danann are more akin to fey folk in most Irish myths (like most myths and legends they aren't consistently portrayed in them either, but I've never seen them referred to as pumpkin headed fire monsters) |
Well, the pumpkin-headed, fire monsters are the Fir Bolg (in-game), not the Tautha. But not even the Fir Bolg were pumpkin-headed, fire monsters.
What if one developer put in a few hours a week to Boomtown? Maybe every patch release one or two buildings change, maybe some construction sites move, etc. Something to show progress rather than this big bombed-out landscape with buildings that have been on fire for 6 years?
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@Golden Girl
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@Golden Girl
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What if one developer put in a few hours a week to Boomtown? Maybe every patch release one or two buildings change, maybe some construction sites move, etc. Something to show progress rather than this big bombed-out landscape with buildings that have been on fire for 6 years?
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Boy I hope a DEV reads and answers this ...
Both Positron and War Witch state they would prefer to concentrate resources on making new zones rather than revamping old ones because it's easier to do so. I'd like to know why it's actually easier to make a new zone than it is to revamp an old one? What does a revamp involve that making a new zone doesn't? |
Look at it this way would you rather re-paint your car, or buy a new one?
Also I can understand wanting to start with a blank canves rather than trying to fit something into an existing zone.
I can see a possibility of where some the difficulty may be. Hazard zones are a feature of blueside. Another feature of blueside (a feature I hate with a passion), contacts send you all over creation for every single mission (often with no ryme or reason), depending on how the programming is set up, I could see it as a PIA to make sure none of those contacts sends you to a mission entrance that doesn't exist anymore.
I have a funny Feel in the future they might revamp all the old Zones, Remember Atlas City is going be attack by the Shivans, which the Ourobos Story Arc is the warning to what will come. IF this coming Storm going to Attack or Destroy the world, it might just Destory or Change the Zones once and for all.
Also To note That WOW is Revamping all there Zones, just to and change events of the game play. So if Coh want to Update the zones or Graphic to the zones, they will in Time.
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I don't think there was anything ever said about that offically.
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I think that's also when the area at the northeast of Steel Canyon changed to a construction site. That was probably before 8/05, as I believe it preceded the Hellion fires.
First, they didn't say they have zero plans for revamps - they said they they'd rather concentrate on new zone, but that older zones would get looked at if they tied in with the new content. Second, war Witch said at Pax that she'd love to go through all the old hazard zone sand make them better. The devs don't hate revamps, and they haven't said they'll never do them - new zones have priority, that's all. |
Personally, I think all of the zones and all of the content could use a revamp.
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Actually, I think they did talk about it back when Jack was in charge. The Wellman arc on redside that features a rebuilding Boomtown first appeared in 2005. I think the expectation at that time was that a revamp of Boomtown was on its way.
I think that's also when the area at the northeast of Steel Canyon changed to a construction site. That was probably before 8/05, as I believe it preceded the Hellion fires. |
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It seems that every time the question of revamping comes up, the devs say "We'd rather do new zones!"
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To be honest, if I was a CoX dev then I'd rather design new zones than give old zones a makeover as well. A new zone allows you to go wild and produce something totally new. Revamping an old zone pretty much requires you to keep some semblance of the old zone.
If you were a dev which would you rather do?
- Design something with only engine limitations restraining you, and which you know will get good press; or
- Design something that has a whole load of other restrictions and player preconceptions attached, and may not create much of a buzz outside of existing players?
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Boy I hope a DEV reads and answers this ...
Both Positron and War Witch state they would prefer to concentrate resources on making new zones rather than revamping old ones because it's easier to do so. I'd like to know why it's actually easier to make a new zone than it is to revamp an old one? What does a revamp involve that making a new zone doesn't? |
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Why would you REPLACE already made zones and content just because some are tired of it and used it, with brand new content?
Wouldn't it be more cost effective to add and expand on content than replace?
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Why would you REPLACE already made zones and content just because some are tired of it and used it, with brand new content?
Wouldn't it be more cost effective to add and expand on content than replace? |
- Dark Astoria
- Boomtown
- The Shadow Shards
Each of these has very, very little content in it. If it wasn't for Taskforces sending you there, and the occasional GM hunt, these 3 areas would hardly ever see anyone.
It's not really a case of people doing all the content in a zone, getting tired of it and wanting new content. It is more a case of "hey devs you've got these great settings with no reason for anyone to go there - so give us a reason".
Saying that, Boomtown could probably do with changes more like Faultline - and that would take a far bit of time.
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Why would you REPLACE already made zones and content just because some are tired of it and used it, with brand new content?
Wouldn't it be more cost effective to add and expand on content than replace? |
Because the problem with zones like Perez Park, Dark Astoria and Boomtown is there is next to no content in them. You get sent there on one off mission, usually from the other end of the city.
Simple version; Brand new content...in zones that are already there. Because there is next to nothing in them.
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Wait. Whose point was I arguing again?
Seriously, I like Dark Astoria, and agree that adding some contacts and a TF without changing anything else would be a welcome addition. But compare it to Striga Isle. or Croatoa. Neat zones with a theme, some contacts with pretty cool arcs, and a TF. Are they used much more than DA? At least Croatoa is accessible in one hop by train from most of the 'high-end' zones.
Maybe if there was a Pocket D entrance like Faultline's it'd help more.