Why is it harder to revamp a zone than to make a new one?


Adeon Hawkwood

 

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Originally Posted by StormSurvivor View Post
I didn't know it, but I certainly hoped it. I've still got my fingers crossed that they'll let us access them through Ouroboros.
That'd be nice for nostalgia purposes. A couple of "patrol" missions that are not a slice of the zone; just the whole freakin' zone. The mission "plot" is that you need to gather some information about the zone before the flood/second Rikti war, so you go in, click several glowies scattered over the map, and the mission is over. All the low level spawns left as-is.


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Originally Posted by Leandro View Post
That'd be nice for nostalgia purposes. A couple of "patrol" missions that are not a slice of the zone; just the whole freakin' zone. The mission "plot" is that you need to gather some information about the zone before the flood/second Rikti war, so you go in, click several glowies scattered over the map, and the mission is over. All the low level spawns left as-is.
I'm all for using the older versions of the zones as time travel.

I think they could possibly look at doing that with Boomtown as well, once they revamp it.

Sad to say, though, judging from War Witch's words at PAX, it sounds like we're not getting any revamps. That old policy seems etched in impervium.


 

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Originally Posted by Judgement_Dave View Post
PAX has seen a reconfirmation of the devs preference for new zones over revamps:

Q: Any plans to revisit old hazard zones?
Bianco Yes, they do revisit sometimes, but only when it makes sense; they like creating new one a lot more.
Argarhargarh....
*mashes face into desk repeatedly*

Sorry, this is the one and only thing I will openly critiscise the Devs for as a 'Stupidly bad decission'.

Seriously, have they TRIED levelling a Hero from 1-50 on Heroside only content? Ignoring all Co-Op and AE missions? Because the old side Blueside content SUCKS. REALLY. BAD.

The zones themselves are fine! They look good, they have character, the work! But the missions and contacts are bland! Boring! Repetetive! Lifeless! Grindy! Samey! SHOCKINGLY BAD!
There is more evil in blueside mission mechanics than in an Al Quaeda suggestion box, for pity sake.

Revamp != Rebuild. Give the contacts each some decent story lines, tied into the zone itself, make them give their cell phone out a lot earlier, and stop them from sending you all over the damn city. Problem solved. Blueside will feel a little shinier again.
Strewth on a stick...


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Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
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I'll toss my vote in again like I have before for choosing to revamp/re-do old zones and not so much creating new zones.

One poster said it best: CoH: revamp zones, CoV: add zones.

And revamping a zone doesn't mean a full tileset/layout different like Faultline had done to it (although something Boomtown would need some work on it done)....but, like others have said, just add some contacts/story arcs, maybe a small TF of a sort and 'bam!' much better! Now people would have a reason to go there beyond getting sent there to do a defeat x mission.


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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
Argarhargarh....
*mashes face into desk repeatedly*

Sorry, this is the one and only thing I will openly critiscise the Devs for as a 'Stupidly bad decission'.

Seriously, have they TRIED levelling a Hero from 1-50 on Heroside only content? Ignoring all Co-Op and AE missions? Because the old side Blueside content SUCKS. REALLY. BAD.

The zones themselves are fine! They look good, they have character, the work! But the missions and contacts are bland! Boring! Repetetive! Lifeless! Grindy! Samey! SHOCKINGLY BAD!
There is more evil in blueside mission mechanics than in an Al Quaeda suggestion box, for pity sake.

Revamp != Rebuild. Give the contacts each some decent story lines, tied into the zone itself, make them give their cell phone out a lot earlier, and stop them from sending you all over the damn city. Problem solved. Blueside will feel a little shinier again.
Strewth on a stick...
Amen to that....

When I made 2 new heroes about a month ago, here is how I played them (usually):

Levels 2-5 street sweeping or doing a mission or two.

Once I hit lvl 5, I go to KR and do 3 radio missions and do Atlas safeguard to get jet pack. Then if I remember about it, go to Hollows do contacts there.

Go back to KR to do radio missions to get KR safeguard and get jump pack.

Go to Faultline and do contacts there. Usually don't hit 20 by the time I get to Doc Delilah, so depending on how close I am to 20, I either just do some radio missions or maybe go to Striga.

Once I'm 20, go back to Faultline and finish missions/story arcs.

Then I go to Croatoa (or Striga if needed) and do contacts there...until I need to be lvl 30....

Do some radio missions in talos/something....hit lvl 30 go back to Croatoa finish arcs/contacts.

After that? uh....back to 'normal old icky coh content'....

It would be better if they just went through all the CoH contacts and changed it so that they gave their cell #'s out after the first mission....just that change alone would be better than what it is now....after about lvl 30 (32 maybe) I'm like....'ugh....don't want to solo this toon anymore'....

Edit: That and make all old coh contacts give missions in the zone that the contact is in! No more running from PI, AP, Perez, Crey's Folly, Bricks, Eden, FF, PI, Steel, DA, etc, etc, etc....


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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
Argarhargarh....
*mashes face into desk repeatedly*
Blueside especially has a TON of zones that nobody ever uses and never will unless they change. Not only that, we've seen EXCEEDINGLY successful revamps (Faultline, RWZ) as well as failed new zones. Cimerora -- admit it, if there wasn't a TF there would anyone ever go there? It's just like Terra Volta. It only exists because there's something good in it. If you put the ITF in Ouroboros, Cim would be as dead as Dark Astoria.

I know that if they focus on one of the dozens of heroside zones that need love, some people would complain villains get nothing. But even being a mostly villain player myself, I know a lot of these zones are just worthless. Besides, zones like Boomtown, Croatoa, or the Shadow Shard could be made into co-op zones, which would revitalize the area as well as add new villain content. Imagine if Croatoa was made into a 20-35 competitive/co-op zone. Instantly villains get +2 GMs and +1 TF, and we could band together for stuff or do side-specific things (like villains working for red caps) that sway the zone and cause things to happen.


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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

 

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And . . . Whether the devs, OR we,
prefer new or revamped zones, . . .

We need remember,
New, added zones always will dilute the average number of people per zone,
at any given time.
.


 

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Utilize old zones better? YES.

Re-design old zones (change geometry)? NO.


The second option is almost as resource-draining as creating a brand, new zone. When they can create new, improved zones from scratch that are optimized for using Ultra Mode for only a little bit more resources than 'developing' an old zone, then it just doesn't make sense to 'develop' an old zone.

Is anyone really that much in love with Boomtown, that they want to see it given the Faultline treatment when the devs can make a brand new zone that's twice as good as a 'developed' Boomtown?

Let the old maps get the occasional, minor 'facelift', like what the Holllows got. Let them be settings for new Giant Monster events, or the basis for new MA maps. But just let them be and give us more of the new, improved zones.


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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
There is more evil in blueside mission mechanics than in an Al Quaeda suggestion box, for pity sake.
An Al Quaeda Suggestion Box????

You may have just hit upon the sting to locate Bin Laden.


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Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano View Post
I don't think it's 'harder' to revamp an old zone than it is to create a new one but...

They get more 'bang for their bucks' when they create a new zone since people can go 'oooh shiney!' instead of 'it's about bloody time!' when they revamp an old zone.

I agree with the people saying that we've already GOT enough zones, how about revamping the crap and near useless ones FIRST before focusing on 'ooh shiney!'. I had hoped with War Witch incharge the stance would change unfortunately it seems the relentless forward march of the shiney continues.
In fairness, WW took over and is inheriting plans for stuff up to I20 or there abouts. Much of what is heading our way in future issues has been planned for years before if not longer.

Positron & WW have both said that it's almost as much work to revamp zones as it is to build new ones. Thus revamping zones is less economically effective.



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I'd like to see old Boomtown become a 5th v Council zone with story contacts like Faultline. We know it's been being rebuilt since CoV has a mission to wreck their rebuilding efforts. "Newly Risen Columns in Boomtown!"

Dark Astoria has had ideas for a Trial or TF for it floating around for ages, about the Sleeper under the cemetery. Paranormal investigators and mystics could have some short storylines to flesh the place out more.

Crey's Folly and Perez are...uhm, just sort of there. I got nothing against the zones, but no idea on how to go about rebuilding them. Same with Eden...it's a nice zone, and it even has a Trial. But it's just none are places you ever bother to go to. Best I could think of is Police Scanner maps are EXTREMELY limited...maybe Hazard Zones could have scanner missions with different sets of maps and different enemy factions just to break the monotony of it all sometimes. Don't know...they're just relics of not being sure if players would prefer instanced maps or street sweeping teams. Guess they could have Meg Mason type contacts who provide patrol missions to clean out target neighborhoods. Street sweeping teams went the way of the dodo with the difficulty slider, decent door completion hits and reduced indoor debt from defeat. Dead zones, all MMOs accumulate them.

oh, and i almost forgot about Terra Volta. Meh, TV isn't all that interesting a place. Never has been. Maybe they could put in a story arc about radiation leaks from people trying to blow the darn reactor up so much having a mutative effect on the denizens of TV (Freakshow turning into Blighteds? Recolor Shivans and have them becoming a problem like Cap's gremlins infesting the power grid?)


 

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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker View Post
Positron & WW have both said that it's almost as much work to revamp zones as it is to build new ones. Thus revamping zones is less economically effective.
Utter, utter BS.
Thats like saying "I'm going to give my car new bodywork and lots of shiny lights, despite the fact the chasis is rusting, because repairing the chassis is less economically effective."
No it's not!! What broken school of thought thinks that you don't need to sometimes go back and do game maintenance? The old blueside content is (see last post). It is rusty. Very much so. They can add all the shinies they want, but that wont STOP the basics of the game from being rusty. In fact, it will only highlight jsut how BAD they are, compared to the new stuff.


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Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

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Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
Blueside especially has a TON of zones that nobody ever uses and never will unless they change. Not only that, we've seen EXCEEDINGLY successful revamps (Faultline, RWZ) as well as failed new zones. Cimerora -- admit it, if there wasn't a TF there would anyone ever go there? It's just like Terra Volta. It only exists because there's something good in it. If you put the ITF in Ouroboros, Cim would be as dead as Dark Astoria.
I agree. Cimerora is a textbook example of what NOT to do. It's very pretty, but when you compare the art resources used with the amount of game play for the zone ... yikes! The dev effort was like 10% game play and 90% new art.

Seems to me we could have something closer to the opposite. A refreshed zone with 90% new game play and only 10% new art.

People who are saying we don't need ANY new art are probably fooling themselves. Some new art is always good. But it shouldn't be the sticking point over which old zones fail to get revamped.


 

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So I've complained often enough about wanting to see blueside mission arcs tweaked to keep them in a single zone. If this was combined with giving contacts a call button much earlier in their arcs, it could be used to revitalize ailing hazard zones with minimal change - you're already sent into them randomly often enough, but it could be interesting if entire arcs that made sense there would take place in those zones. For example, Banished Pantheon arcs could take place in Dark Astoria, Devouring Earth arcs could focus on Crey's Folly, and so on.


 

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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
Utter, utter BS.
Thats like saying "I'm going to give my car new bodywork and lots of shiny lights, despite the fact the chasis is rusting, because repairing the chassis is less economically effective."
I think the devs believe the original hero content is good enough to get and keep subscribers.

I disagree. I think the rest of the game is good enough to get subscribers, but the majority of the hero content actually puts them off.

That's not just my opinion. I've been hearing players in my teams crab about it since 2005.

Who knows how many players we'd have in the game if the devs paid more attention to the value of the content?


 

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Originally Posted by konshu View Post
I think the devs believe the original hero content is good enough to get and keep subscribers.

I disagree. I think the rest of the game is good enough to get subscribers, but the majority of the hero content actually puts them off.

That's not just my opinion. I've been hearing players in my teams crab about it since 2005.

Who knows how many players we'd have in the game if the devs paid more attention to the value of the content?
Amen to that.


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Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

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While Ohhh Shiny is nice I agree COH has enough zones. 22 zones, not counting PVP and CoOp is certainly enough and the fact is most don't need major overhauls just give people something to do.

Perez Park look great but aside from a few contacts sending you in there for one mission or battling Kraken the only people you find in there are the serious badge hounds hunting Skulls, etc. Leave it just as is and add some contacts, stores, and a Hospital and players may actually show up.. like they did with The Hollows.

Dark Astoria.. same thing. The zone itself looks great but aside from having a Hospital its just like Perez not much to do but hunt BP Masks and Adamastor when some "other zone" contact sends you in for one solo mission.

Creys Folly is another that has a great look but unless you want to work on your Rikti monkey count or fight Jurassic not much to do.

There are a whole list of more zones that could use a touch up NOT a major overhaul. You want people to stop by give them something to do. Sure it would take some doing but all we are taling is adding some contacts, throw in some stores (make them people like in KR or the Hollows so you don't need to redesign a building, and even a field hospital
(like the Hollows) has to be easier to code than adding a new building.

COV could use a FEW new zones just to add some flavor but lets not get crazy like COH. I think the reason Hero side has empty zones is the fact it just has too many. At levels 10-20 are you going to spend time in Steel Canyon or Skyway? The majority would answer Steel simply because it has Wentworths and is easier to get around in which traslates to more people in zone and a better chance to find a team. Same thing with Talos over IP. Bricks and FF get about the same amount of players but neither has a WW so it's one less draw. A few new zones on the red side would add some additional flavor but lets NOT get to the pont where we have as many dead zones villain side as heroes.


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Blueside especially has a TON of zones that nobody ever uses and never will unless they change. Not only that, we've seen EXCEEDINGLY successful revamps (Faultline, RWZ) as well as failed new zones. Cimerora -- admit it, if there wasn't a TF there would anyone ever go there? It's just like Terra Volta. It only exists because there's something good in it. If you put the ITF in Ouroboros, Cim would be as dead as Dark Astoria.
Indeed when first released the number of complaints about Cimerora being 'another useless zone but with one taskforce' were actually pretty high if I remember correctly, it was definitely a case of 'looks nice, otherwise pointless'. Even now it has...ooh two contacts in the entire place. As someone said you could take the ITF out of Cimerora and stick it in Oroborous and you'd barely ever see a person in there, it's only because the ITF is quick, relatively easy and good XP that people even run it.


 

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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
What I simply cannot understand is HOW the hell they think revamping is, somehow, magically inferior to new zones?
new content adds to the game without deleting anything. When you're finished making a new zone you have all the old ones PLUS a brand spanking new one.

If some of the old ones stink, so what? You have other options.


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Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
new content adds to the game without deleting anything. When you're finished making a new zone you have all the old ones PLUS a brand spanking new one.

If some of the old ones stink, so what? You have other options.
Because you cant sell a house if theres a few dead rats under the floorboards. You might never see them, but they make the whole house stink.

Or, best analogy so far; You can stick as many shiny bits as you want on your car, but that doesnt matter if the chasis is starting to rust.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
Because you cant sell a house if theres a few dead rats under the floorboards. You might never see them, but they make the whole house stink.
That analogy is bad enough to actually undermine the point you're trying to make.

When I'm roaming around Talos the state of Boomtown has zero impact on my level of fun. I'm not sitting in Wentworths seething "OMG I can't believe BOOMTOWN is out there somewhere polluting the game with its suckitude while the devs DO NOTHING!!11"


And as it seems I am fated to keep pointing out, one player's dross is another's gold.

Take Dark Astoria.
Atmospheric, sure, but a dead end zone with no indigenous content, an expression of a failed design philosophy ("hazard zones", lol).

Well, except that some of us really love to periodically blow off steam nuking zombies by the truckload. So, for some of us DA is "content" as configured.

Make a cool new zone, and everyone can play it without losing anything from their game experience. Re-vamp DA and you're removing content for a certain demographic.

Even the lamest zone has SOMETHING for people to do, even if it's just farming big ol' spawns or stress testing builds. If you remodel the zone, that is lost.

Adding new zones increases the total content of the game more than re-vamping zones does. And in the MMOverse, more is better.

Now, in a perfect world with unlimited resources, yeah it'd be great if they could re-do every zone in the game from the ground up using the latest and greatest techniques and technology.

Since that isn't gonna happen, I agree with the devs that from a resource allocation/bang for buck perspective new zones have it all over remodeled ones.


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Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
Make a cool new zone, and everyone can play it without losing anything from their game experience. Re-vamp DA and you're removing content for a certain demographic.

Even the lamest zone has SOMETHING for people to do, even if it's just farming big ol' spawns or stress testing builds. If you remodel the zone, that is lost.

Adding new zones increases the total content of the game more than re-vamping zones does. And in the MMOverse, more is better.

Now, in a perfect world with unlimited resources, yeah it'd be great if they could re-do every zone in the game from the ground up using the latest and greatest techniques and technology.

Since that isn't gonna happen, I agree with the devs that from a resource allocation/bang for buck perspective new zones have it all over remodeled ones.
This is exactly the point im trying to make. People seem to have this death-grip on 'revampe = it MUST look different'.
No. Dark Astoria looks great. Creys folly looks great. Perez looks great, and should look freaking beautiful and creepy with Ultra Mode.
But there is next to NOTHING to do in them. Sure, you can hunt the GMs if there is one and 'blow up zombies by the truckload'. But it would be nice to run actual missions in there, and not just get sent there from the other end of the city on a one of mission which makes you simply resent the zones existance.

Leave the zone architecture alone. And simply add in some contacts with story arcs, like the three/four contact 'arc' of the Hollows. Hells, maybe even a TF for good measure. That way the people who like blowing up truckloads of zombies can continue to do so...and there is less work than a 'new shiney zone' that will still be 'new' to both new AND old players.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

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All Dark Astoria needs is some Faultline style contacts with an overarching storyline between them and possibly a Taskforce to top it all off where you face the 'Sleeper under the graveyard'. Nobody is saying to remodel it.

As Techbot is saying, Revamp doesn't always mean Remodel, it means add stuff to do in the zones that lack stuff to do!


 

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Originally Posted by BlueBattler View Post
Boy I hope a DEV reads and answers this ...

Both Positron and War Witch state they would prefer to concentrate resources on making new zones rather than revamping old ones because it's easier to do so.

I'd like to know why it's actually easier to make a new zone than it is to revamp an old one? What does a revamp involve that making a new zone doesn't?
I guess because they have to rip everything apart by piece by piece and glue it back together and that might be more trouble then anything. New Zone give a fresh new out look and they can add, change or Improve on old Ideas with out ripping stuff to Pieces. I think the two zone they redone already like the Rikti Crash Site which is now the Rikti Warzone and The Hollows. I think since they revamp these two Zone they just had a hard time redoing the coding or whatever, Changing the look of things and I think it be easier on them just to create something new and fresh. I think in time when it is need they will revamp a zone or two, Just be patience, if a new Issue comes out with a New or Old Villains Group that is all over a zone or two you been to, they might say hey lets revamp this zone.


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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
Leave the zone architecture alone. And simply add in some contacts with story arcs, like the three/four contact 'arc' of the Hollows.

If it were that easy they'd have done it already.
Clearly the process is more complex than "add a contact and throw in some missions".

But philosophically, adding stuff to zones without otherwise disrupting them would be great.

But bad zones exist in isolation, aside from those annoying "go there, kill that" missions you sometimes get hero side (which is a contact problem, not a zone problem). At worst they're occasionally annoying, not toxic.


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