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Last time I checked you could run Posi as many times as you wanted. Thorn trial not.
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Yesterday I ran 2 pug villain respecs in 17minutes each. Thats 3 an hour. In the same 2ish hours your typical Positron takes, that ends up being more merits in the same amount of time than heroes get on Posi.
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Lol. The devs aren't going to make more SFs. And if they do it's going to be like the barracuda where the heroes get an equivilent. Heroes will ALWAYS have more tf than villains have sfs because the devs think adding villain-only content will make people cry and unsubscribe. And the sad thing is they're probably right because everyone loves hero side so much even though the villain ATs are more interesting (in general).
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Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
no thanks. how about just asking for more red side sf/trials.
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You can run anything as many times as you want. It's just after the first time you get half merits unless 18 hours have passed.
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Originally Posted by xhris
Last time I checked you could run Posi as many times as you wanted. Thorn trial not.
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"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Not sure but i think xhris was talking about getting the respec (1 per the 3 level ranges iirc). But thats an entirely different matter than the one at hand.
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
You can run anything as many times as you want. It's just after the first time you get half merits unless 18 hours have passed.
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" I don't let me kids play on the Freedom Server" -Oya
I don't see how recoding the system on a per mission basses so redside is effected diffrently is easier or more likely to be done then the addition of new content.
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
You can run anything as many times as you want. It's just after the first time you get half merits unless 18 hours have passed.
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Originally Posted by Squeakersman
Not sure but i think xhris was talking about getting the respec (1 per the 3 level ranges iirc). But thats an entirely different matter than the one at hand.
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Still wrong my friend. You can run them and claim a respec only 3 times. You can run them for Merits ad infinitum.
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Originally Posted by xhris
Yes, I was referring to the villain respecs, aka Thorn Trials. You can run them only three times. Not one each; you can run the last one three times if you want, but that's it. So claiming that you earned more merits running two of them in the same time that takes to run a single Posi is irrelevant. Thorn Trials are a one-time thing, while you can run Posi every 18 hours(or more but with diminishing returns).
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"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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I sincerely apologize. I didn't know that.|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Still wrong my friend. You can run them and claim a respec only 3 times. You can run them for Merits ad infinitum.
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I did some rough calculations based on the merit data from Paragonwiki. The six villain-only SFs give a total of 160 merits, which translates to a median time of 8 hours to run them all (using the stated average of 20 merits/hour for SFs). The three respec trials give 43 merits in all, which is another 1.79 hours (at 24 merits/hour for trials). Using my maths skills I can determine that this sums to 9.79 hours of villain-exclusive content that is subject to diminishing returns. On top of this you have the ITF and LGTF, which add 63 more merits and a bit over 3 more hours of content.
So the dev-calculated benchmarks give us almost 13 hours of content for villains (at median times) in each 18 hour window. I think that's a pretty good amount.
I'm sure someone will say "but I can run it faster". Good for you, but that's the reason for these limits in the first place. If you're running that much content in a day then you should have a couple of alts you rotate through to avoid DR anyway.
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Originally Posted by xhris
Yes, I was referring to the villain respecs, aka Thorn Trials. You can run them only three times. Not one each; you can run the last one three times if you want, but that's it. So claiming that you earned more merits running two of them in the same time that takes to run a single Posi is irrelevant. Thorn Trials are a one-time thing, while you can run Posi every 18 hours(or more but with diminishing returns).
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Still wrong my friend. You can run them and claim a respec only 3 times. You can run them for Merits ad infinitum.
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Originally Posted by xhris
I sincerely apologize. I didn't know that.
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You can get merits for all the respec trials no matter what, subject to diminishing returns.
You can claim 1 respec from the trial after level 24, an additional respec after level 34, and a final respec from the trials after 44.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Frankly, for that to be an issue you need to play like eight to ten hours without stopping, like say, go to work or meet friends/family or go to bed, stuff that'll take those remaining ten to eight hours.
Really, once you reach this point, Diminishing Returns in Strike Forces shouldn't be your main concern.
so what happened to the other 4-8 hours of the day? i only see 16-20 covered in your post.
Well, this is about DR, so as far as I care, only 18 hours matter.
Let's just say the rest of the time is interpretive dancing.
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Let me stop you there.|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
No, I'm not. I clearly stated for people who don't want an imbalance, there won't be one. For people who don't care, there will be the benefit of staying true.
No one really needs any change that will cause further dissention between the sides. |
GR is paid for content, content not everyone will buy, or be able to buy. Ergo, saying 'just switch sides' is, in of itself, a rather unrealistic comment. I wouldn't even want to hazard saying 'the majority will buy GR' because I have no idea.
Also, by that same arguement, not everyone will want to change sides. People who are heavily concerned with merits may well change sides without minding. But that in turn then dumps a penalty on those who, for whatever reason, don't want to change sides. Also, as far as we know, the 'Side Change' content, the missions or w/e we will need to do to change sides, is anything but fast (according to Dev comments). It's not something you flip back and forth between easily.
Now, Im not agreeing with the OP arguement. It's still not a good idea. But just saying 'Buy GR and switch sides' is NOT a good arguement for never doing more Villain exclusive SFs, and never ever will be.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Wow, what kind of forumnal gymnastics did you pull to get that I don't want more villain SFs out of what I said?|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Let me stop you there.
GR is paid for content, content not everyone will buy, or be able to buy. Ergo, saying 'just switch sides' is, in of itself, a rather unrealistic comment. I wouldn't even want to hazard saying 'the majority will buy GR' because I have no idea. Also, by that same arguement, not everyone will want to change sides. People who are heavily concerned with merits may well change sides without minding. But that in turn then dumps a penalty on those who, for whatever reason, don't want to change sides. Also, as far as we know, the 'Side Change' content, the missions or w/e we will need to do to change sides, is anything but fast (according to Dev comments). It's not something you flip back and forth between easily. Now, Im not agreeing with the OP arguement. It's still not a good idea. But just saying 'Buy GR and switch sides' is NOT a good arguement for never doing more Villain exclusive SFs, and never ever will be. |
And so what if GR is paid content? So was CoV originally. Sometimes people have to pay to get additional options. That doesn't mean those options aren't an admissable argument when it comes to addressing perceived imbalance.
Not to mention that you don't have to go totally villain to do villain content, nor totally hero to do hero. Only if you want to start a team yourself. It may take a bit of work to be Rogue or Vigilante, but that doesn't mean it's going to be a terrible grind either.
Want the option shorter SFs or longer TFs for more merits? You will have it. The perceived imbalance between the two is addressed. Just as the perceived imbalance of not being able to play a villain was addressed by adding a Paid expanshalone in CoV.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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And just the six Freedom Phalanx TFs - not counting any of the many other hero only TFs - give a total of 282 merits, which is 14 hours by the same calculation. Add up all the hero-only ones, you get 399 merits - 20 hours of content, well more than the DR limit. And I didn't even include the respec Trials in this. |
Originally Posted by Redoubtable
I did some rough calculations based on the merit data from Paragonwiki. The six villain-only SFs give a total of 160 merits, which translates to a median time of 8 hours to run them all (using the stated average of 20 merits/hour for SFs).
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Since heroes have nearly twice as much content in the same range, villains should be allowed to run the limited content they have twice as often in compensation.
We've already asked many times for more SFs. So either let villains run the content they have twice as often, or give them twice as much content.
I love how quickly people forget the rampant farming and speed running that this change was meant to short circuit. In addition to the fact that rampant speed running led to the major merit nerfs that people hated.
Let villains run as much as they want, or even twice as much? You'll kill what little merits we get as people quickly optimize and drive the times lower and lower. In the end it will lead to less people running less SFs for less merits, and give the devs one less reason to make more SFs, not more.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Maybe the solution is to punish/discourage speed runs, rather than lower overall merit rewards, then.
i'm getting sick of sounding like a broken record, and i wish the devs would stop this lame track of thinking they have about adding just villian content without adding hero content, but red side needs more to do before anything else is done to hero side. plain and simple. as for discouraging speed runs and letting red side run the same sf without DR, good luck. never going to happen because of the uproar we would hear from the hero side.
simple and best solution: give red side more sf/trials without giving blue side anything. it won't hurt anybody. if not that then increase the merits the sf's give by 25-35%.
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that's what the diminishing returns clock does!
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Originally Posted by eiko-chan
maybe the solution is to punish/discourage speed runs, rather than lower overall merit rewards, then.
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"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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You've completely missed my point. There is enough villain content available that the impact of diminishing returns can be avoided. Sure, there's more content available blueside, but that's a fun factor/variety issue, not a merit earning issue - in other words, it's not a reason to remove diminishing returns for villains.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
And just the six Freedom Phalanx TFs - not counting any of the many other hero only TFs - give a total of 282 merits, which is 14 hours by the same calculation. Add up all the hero-only ones, you get 399 merits - 20 hours of content, well more than the DR limit. And I didn't even include the respec Trials in this.
Since heroes have nearly twice as much content in the same range, villains should be allowed to run the limited content they have twice as often in compensation. We've already asked many times for more SFs. So either let villains run the content they have twice as often, or give them twice as much content. |
Standardized Code Rant applies.
And yes. i did mean Standardized. You see, to alter the way SFs reward merits on the 18 hour limit of Diminishing returns they'd have to revamp how the game sees them, as I'm sure it's identical to TFs except for their names. You'd need to create a separate code-base in order to get it fully functional. The separate code-base being "Strike Force" as opposed to Task Force/Co-Operative Task Force.
That, in itself, is an incredibly amount of work just to implement this idea. However it gets a bit more difficult when it comes time to implement due to coding artifacts, glitches, and updates. You see, even when two items seem -utterly- unrelated there's still the chance of coding conflicts and glitches or bugs. This is why the Female Arachnos Soldiers recently lost their collars for no quantifiable reason.
So I'm going to vote "No". If you want to farm merits run the Strike Forces, then the Co-op TFs, and then hit Oroborous to run some story arcs. And anyone who can run ALL of the Heroside TFs in 18 hours or less is a danged MACHINE. I mean ALL the Shadow shard TFs and the others? -wow-.
-Rachel-
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I thought I already mentioned that...
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Standardized Code Rant applies.
And yes. i did mean Standardized. You see, to alter the way SFs reward merits on the 18 hour limit of Diminishing returns they'd have to revamp how the game sees them, as I'm sure it's identical to TFs except for their names. You'd need to create a separate code-base in order to get it fully functional. The separate code-base being "Strike Force" as opposed to Task Force/Co-Operative Task Force. That, in itself, is an incredibly amount of work just to implement this idea. However it gets a bit more difficult when it comes time to implement due to coding artifacts, glitches, and updates. You see, even when two items seem -utterly- unrelated there's still the chance of coding conflicts and glitches or bugs. This is why the Female Arachnos Soldiers recently lost their collars for no quantifiable reason. So I'm going to vote "No". If you want to farm merits run the Strike Forces, then the Co-op TFs, and then hit Oroborous to run some story arcs. And anyone who can run ALL of the Heroside TFs in 18 hours or less is a danged MACHINE. I mean ALL the Shadow shard TFs and the others? -wow-. -Rachel- |
I have to post here because I find it amazing that anyone can come up against DR. I am lucky to run 1-2 TF/SF a week let alone in a day!
DR affects me not at all
Torque "There are people in this world who do not love their fellow man and I HATE people like that!" -- Tom Leher
Dr. Awe 50++ Sonic/Dark Corr
Intra Venus 50 Mind/Psi Dom
Storm Claud lvl 50+ Elec/Dark Brute
I thought you were trying to fix something? Clearly I was wrong.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill