Quote:
If you're playing more than 9 solid hours a day when it's not a special occasion like Double XP weekend, you have bigger issues than the DR clock and the amount of content.
|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Except that's simply not true, and you just proved it yourself. 9 hours is significantly less than 18 hours. There is not "enough villain content available" to avoid the DR clock. There is ample hero content to do so, however.
So one side or the other of this issue needs to be fixed. |
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Quote:
1. If you read the post it's actually 13 hours of content, not 9.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Except that's simply not true, and you just proved it yourself. 9 hours is significantly less than 18 hours. There is not "enough villain content available" to avoid the DR clock. There is ample hero content to do so, however.
So one side or the other of this issue needs to be fixed. |
2. As has been said many times, if you're playing SFs for merits for more than 13 hours a day then you've got deeper issues. In fact, I'm actively opposed to any change that would encourage players to play more than that.
Quote:
and in that same fun filled 9 hour period of playing short and unique SFs, the heroes would have *just* finished they're epic and amazing journey to the center of Dr. Quarterfield's Task Force Of Hell.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Except that's simply not true, and you just proved it yourself. 9 hours is significantly less than 18 hours. There is not "enough villain content available" to avoid the DR clock. There is ample hero content to do so, however.
So one side or the other of this issue needs to be fixed. |
For roughly the same amount of merits.
Current Published Arcs
#1 "Too Drunk to be Alcoholic" Arc #48942
#2 "To Slay Sleeping Dragons" Arc #111486
#3 "Stop Calling Me"
Quote:
the sf/tf/trials were not meant to be speed runs. the only way you should be able to do all of them is if it is a weekend and you have absolutely no life.
|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Except that's simply not true, and you just proved it yourself. 9 hours is significantly less than 18 hours. There is not "enough villain content available" to avoid the DR clock. There is ample hero content to do so, however.
So one side or the other of this issue needs to be fixed. |
Quote:
For once we agree, Quinty |
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
i'm getting sick of sounding like a broken record, and i wish the devs would stop this lame track of thinking they have about adding just villian content without adding hero content, but red side needs more to do before anything else is done to hero side. plain and simple. as for discouraging speed runs and letting red side run the same sf without DR, good luck. never going to happen because of the uproar we would hear from the hero side.
simple and best solution: give red side more sf/trials without giving blue side anything. it won't hurt anybody. if not that then increase the merits the sf's give by 25-35%. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
 |
Quote:
sometimes a miracle happens. and always when you least expect it lol. |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
For once we agree, Quinty
|
Quote:
I'm getting sick of sounding like a broken record, and I wish that crybaby villside exclusive players would stop this lame track of thinking that there is any logical reason why villains should receive exclusive design time for any reason. Plain and simple. Blueside has been around for years longer and received the full attention of Cryptic for a very long period of time before CoV even existed.|
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
i'm getting sick of sounding like a broken record, and i wish the devs would stop this lame track of thinking they have about adding just villian content without adding hero content, but red side needs more to do before anything else is done to hero side. plain and simple. as for discouraging speed runs and letting red side run the same sf without DR, good luck. never going to happen because of the uproar we would hear from the hero side.
|
The disparity between blue and redside was going to happen simply because CoV was released in a state commensurate with CoH when it was first released. If you actually look at what's been added to the game, it's been an almost entirely even split between what heroes have gotten and villains have gotten. The reason for the even split is that the devs have taken the intelligent step of supporting both of their "games", the new and the old one, equally.
Quote:
| simple and best solution: give red side more sf/trials without giving blue side anything. it won't hurt anybody. if not that then increase the merits the sf's give by 25-35%. |
Asking for SF rewards is similarly stupid because TF/SFs are based on average completion time, not on how much you can make in a day. Villside content rewards less specifically because they were designed to account of player complaints that revolved around blueside TFs being too long. You don't get to have the more compact SFs and better rewards for time.
Quote:
look umbral, i don't know who **** in your wheaties, but there is no reason why the devs can't give red side some love without giving blue side any. and seeing as how there is a merit descrepency it would make sense to increase the merits that sf's give.
|
Originally Posted by Umbral
I'm getting sick of sounding like a broken record, and I wish that crybaby villside exclusive players would stop this lame track of thinking that there is any logical reason why villains should receive exclusive design time for any reason. Plain and simple. Blueside has been around for years longer and received the full attention of Cryptic for a very long period of time before CoV even existed.
The disparity between blue and redside was going to happen simply because CoV was released in a state commensurate with CoH when it was first released. If you actually look at what's been added to the game, it's been an almost entirely even split between what heroes have gotten and villains have gotten. The reason for the even split is that the devs have taken the intelligent step of supporting both of their "games", the new and the old one, equally. What you're forgetting is that it's going to hurt blueside because you're forcibly asking for blueside to stagnate while the devs focus on giving stuff exclusively to villside. Asking for SF rewards is similarly stupid because TF/SFs are based on average completion time, not on how much you can make in a day. Villside content rewards less specifically because they were designed to account of player complaints that revolved around blueside TFs being too long. You don't get to have the more compact SFs and better rewards for time. |
Quote:
Actually there is a reason that the devs shouldn't give red side love without providing blue side with some as well. Hell, there are more reasons why they shouldn't than they should. There are more players blueside. It would be counterintuitive for the devs to provide more development time to the side that has fewer payers, unless you assume that the reason that the only/biggest reason that more players don't play redside is because of a lack of content, rather than dislike for the player base, villain aesthetic, villain roleplaying, or any one of the reasons that players choose one side over the other.|
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
look umbral, i don't know who **** in your wheaties, but there is no reason why the devs can't give red side some love without giving blue side any.
|
The given reason why both sides have gotten roughly equal content since CoV was released is pretty simple: they're supporting both games equally. The devs probably already know that development for redside is going to be less effective per dollar or minute spent than blueside because there are fewer players. If anything, dividing it equally between heroes and villains penalizes heroes because they're getting less development per capita so villains are already getting more than heroes on that basis alone.
Quote:
| and seeing as how there is a merit descrepency it would make sense to increase the merits that sf's give. |
As long as you assume that players on both ends spend the exact same amount of time running TFs, they're going to earn the exact same amount of merits. 1 hour running a TF is going to give the same reward as running 1 hour running an SF. That's not a discrepancy. That's equality. As has been stated earlier in this very thread, it's only when you begin assuming that players are going to run more than 13 hours in a single 18 hour period that there is anything resembling a discrepancy. The fact that there is less variety isn't a problem with the merit awards; it's a problem with the amount of time that the gave have been out and therefore the amount of development times that the games have been given. Since CoV has been released, CoH and CoV have received virtually identical amounts of additional content. Assuming that just because it came after that it should have the exact same amount of content is asinine.
CoV has been out less than CoH so it logically stands that it's going to have less content. That disparity in content is pretty much going to always exist unless the developers all suddenly have aneurysms and decide that it's a good idea to drop CoH until CoV gets 2+ years of development time to make up for that disparity. Assuming that there is any reason to drop the more older, more populated, more developed side just because the newer side is simply newer even though it's the same game is ludicrous and belligerent. That's like suggesting that you pay attention to your older child less just because the younger child wasn't born while the older child was getting all of the attention.
Quote:
Then how do you explain away the multiple people saying "Im changing sides as soon as GR comes out, cos Vill side merits and markets suck!" ?|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Actually there is a reason that the devs shouldn't give red side love without providing blue side with some as well. Hell, there are more reasons why they shouldn't than they should. There are more players blueside. It would be counterintuitive for the devs to provide more development time to the side that has fewer payers, unless you assume that the reason that the only/biggest reason that more players don't play redside is because of a lack of content, rather than dislike for the player base, villain aesthetic, villain roleplaying, or any one of the reasons that players choose one side over the other.
|
And yes, lack of content does hurt redside, especially in the SF department.
Anyway, I dont see any reason why Redside cant get some attenting while not ignoring blueside. Hell, theres a lot of old dross blueside that could seriously use an overhaul. Like, the vast majority of standard contacts.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Quote:
Because people are stupid? The vill market sucks because the proportion of marketeers is larger villside than heroside, and, as I've already stated, the vill merits don't suck specifically because merits are applied on a time basis. Hell, if you look at villside, it's actually a great place to be on the supply side of things because of all of the price inflation.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Then how do you explain away the multiple people saying "Im changing sides as soon as GR comes out, cos Vill side merits and markets suck!" ?
|
Quote:
| And yes, lack of content does hurt redside, especially in the SF department. |
Quote:
| Anyway, I dont see any reason why Redside cant get some attenting while not ignoring blueside. Hell, theres a lot of old dross blueside that could seriously use an overhaul. Like, the vast majority of standard contacts. |
Quote:
Agreement: Reached |
Originally Posted by Umbral
And I would have no problem with this. Go ahead and give redside some new content while revamping the bad blueside content. I've never had a problem with anything along that lines. The only problem I've ever had in these discussions is with people that either scream that the villains deserve to get exclusive development for a period of time for whatever reason or those that claim that CoV should get a free pass to account for whatever problem they believe exists because of this refusal to provide exclusive development time (keep in mind, exclusive or preferential development time != exclusive content; the Barracuda and Khan TFs were equal development but exclusive content).
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Quote:
But they just won't DIIIIIE! Or maybe they were already undead... roaches... ewwwwww.
|
Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm
We don't care about people who ragequit without thinking logically, though.
They are like the AE babies, we are better off without them. |
Quote:
You mean, like say... 2 years?
|
Originally Posted by Umbral
The only problem I've ever had in these discussions is with people that either scream that the villains deserve to get exclusive development for a period of time
|
[CENTER][U][COLOR=#22229c][URL="http://cit.cohtitan.com/character/53024"][IMG]http://avatars.cohtitan.com/signatures/cit/u53024.png[/IMG][/URL][/COLOR][/U][/CENTER]
[CENTER][SIZE=1][COLOR=white]The #1 True Villain badge collector on Infinity.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/CENTER]
Quote:
I used a vague phrase on purpose because the actual time period of the offending individuals' suggestions vary significantly. Assuming that the time periods should be equal to the time from the initial release of CoH to the initial release of CoV, it would necessitate a period of 17-18 months. Assuming that the time periods should be based off of actual development time rather than simply release time, you'd probably need to extend that to a number of years because CoH had been a twinkling in Jack Emmert's eye for a while (I recall a video that dated back to 2000/1 for a proto-CoH).
|
Originally Posted by Thaumator
You mean, like say... 2 years?
|
Quote:
Small note: City of Villains came out 18 months after City of Heroes. That's less than two years of exclusivity out of 6. And I can't really get behind your argument about CoH needing more content because it has more players because it has more content, either.
|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Blueside has been around for years longer and received the full attention of Cryptic for a very long period of time before CoV even existed.
|
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Quote:
First off, it would not require that long to make the Villains happy, really just filling in the Strike Force gap would go a long LONG way in that regard. And secondly, even those that would like to get close to the same amount of content Heroes has, it would not have to be all at once. Just that some steps were taken to reduce the disparity between the two sides, instead of expanding it further.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Assuming that the time periods should be equal to the time from the initial release of CoH to the initial release of CoV, it would necessitate a period of 17-18 months.
|
EDIT: Would one Villain centric Issue out of ten be too much Villain focus?
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Quote:
You're forgetting all of the years that CoH was being developed before it was first released. CoH didn't just magically pop into existence when it was published. Design for it had begun as early as 2000-2001, especially from a content perspective.|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Small note: City of Villains came out 18 months after City of Heroes. That's less than two years of exclusivity out of 6. And I can't really get behind your argument about CoH needing more content because it has more players because it has more content, either.
|
Keep in mind that you're also assuming that blueside has more players simply because it has more content. Hell, if modern teams are any reliable indicator, AE is a bigger draw than the existing dev content so it doesn't matter what the devs have put out in the past. Considering the numbers of players I've personally met that are blueside exclusive to redside exclusive, I'm pretty sure that a lot of the population disparity has to do with a majority of people simply preferring to escape reality as super powered good guys saving the world rather than super powered bad guys trying to exploit it.
Quote:
this is your opinion, not fact. so we can assume from this that because of your opinion, that you don't want red side content because you want to be a hero and not a villian? again, there is no reason that they can not add villian content without adding hero content. and like M_I_A said, it doesn't have to be all at once but just a little bit here and there.
| Considering the numbers of players I've personally met that are blueside exclusive to redside exclusive, I'm pretty sure that a lot of the population disparity has to do with a majority of people simply preferring to escape reality as super powered good guys saving the world rather than super powered bad guys trying to exploit it. |
Quote:
How have the existing updates done anything to expand the disparity? Proportionately, the disparity has shrunk because villains are getting pretty much the same amount of content as heroes have. If you don't believe me, just look at the content updates since I6 and count up the number of new redside features compared to new blueside features. The disparity is almost nonexistent, and, if anything, villains have actually gotten a bit more content thanks to villains getting things that were already in blueside when CoV was released (EATs are a big one; and, yes, VEATs count as villain preferential development rather than equivalent development because HEATs existed before CoV was even in development).|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
First off, it would not require that long to make the Villains happy, really just filling in the Strike Force gap would go a long LONG way in that regard. And secondly, even those that would like to get close to the same amount of content Heroes has, it would not have to be all at once. Just that some steps were taken to reduce the disparity between the two sides, instead of expanding it further.
|
Quote:
| EDIT: Would one Villain centric Issue out of ten be too much Villain focus? |
Arguing that villains should receive any issue that is preferential simply because the game has less, even though it stands to logic that it would have less because the game is younger, is about as fair as asking for blueside to receive preferential development simply because there are more players on that side. The developers have chosen to walk the path of neutrality by providing content for each side as equally as possible. They haven't shown any development preference for good reason: they're working to keep both games active and trying to prevent stagnation for both sides.
Hell, if you want to see what happens when one side receives preferential development, just look at Issues 7 & 8: villains got an issue devoted almost exclusively to them, but the devs had to provide a balancing issue almost exclusively devoted to heroes to make up for the rather abundant hate that cropped up soon after Heroes got an issue that didn't do anything for them. Preferential development for a side is simply a bad idea. I simply causes a great deal of reactive hate from the side that didn't get the commensurate development and that's bad for the game.
I would say any expansion that only catered to one side would be to off balanced. It would be nice if the next time they do some new missions they sneak in a new SF or something though.
I don't even play redside but I think it should be getting more content per release then heroes until the disparity is less note worthy.
Quote:
First off, it's anecdotal evidence, not opinion. There is a difference. I'd similarly challenge you to actually start asking players of each side why they don't play on the other side. I've met players on both sides of the aisle and, of those I've met and talked to, a vast number didn't play redside after an initial incursion or two because of reasons that had nothing to do with the content, or supposed lack thereof. It had to do with the overall |
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
this is your opinion, not fact. so we can assume from this that because of your opinion, that you don't want red side content because you want to be a hero and not a villian?
|
Secondly, please point out where I have ever said that I don't want red side content. I have no problem with red side development. I have never had a problem with red side development. I have always, however, had a problem with red side development at the expense of blue side development.
Quote:
| again, there is no reason that they can not add villian content without adding hero content. and like M_I_A said, it doesn't have to be all at once but just a little bit here and there. |
I challenge you to actually come up with something that is anything but anecdotal or based upon abstract correlation in order to prove that villains are in dire need of preferential content rather than simply baldly stating that they need it for whatever reason and that any reason that refutes this claim is false simply for disagreeing. Maybe if you actually attempted to enter into debate rather than trying to prove yourself correct via screaming and repetition, you might actually start making sense or change some minds.
Umbral, first off i'm not screaming. and trying to argue that because one side of the game hasn't been around very long is a pretty dumb argument in itself. some tweaks could be made hero side while still providing more content red side. and honestly, the words which you uttered, "I'm pretty sure..."and "in my experience..." states that it is your opinion and not exactly fact.
I know several people who can run the hero side tf's in a short amount of time and the merits you can get range from almost even to almost triple what any of the villian sf's give. it is pretty sad that a stf can be run faster then an lrsf, but there is a merit descrepency of 12. and what's worse is you need to reset the lrsf if the tech is not in the last tower and that can take several minuets to accomplish which makes the sf in actuallity, longer.
forget about the min/maxers for a minuet and think about the "normal" or "casual" player. if the lrsf takes longer then an stf for them, what do you think they are going to come screaming about, and have come screaming about. the merits. go take a look at paragon wiki for the tf/sf's and compare merits for the level ranges. in fact i'll do it for you and give the min/maxers scale:
Virgil Tarikoss: 13 merits can be done in 30 mins.(never been on one that didn't take this long)
Positron: 66 merits and can be done in 1.5 hrs.(i know from experience)
Synapse: 58 merits and can be done in 1.5 hrs.(same here)
Posi is 3 times as long and gives more then 5 times the reward.
Synapse is 3 times as long and gives over 4 times the reward.
these are the first of the tf/sf's and already there is a huge descrepency in the rewards. 3x13= 36. that is still almost half of what the hero side level equivalent gives even if the red side sf was increased to match the minimal time it takes to run either of the hero tf's.
Silver Mantis: 42 merits and can be done in 1.5 hrs.(i haven't been on one that took this short of time but i have been on skype with people while they did it)
Sister Psyche: 50 merits and can be done in 1.5 hrs.(again from experience)
these 2 are pretty close so no real concernable descrepency.
Operative Renault: 24 merits never been on one but that equates to around 1.3 hrs.
Citadel: 40 merits and can be run in 1.5 hrs.(experiance)
another descrepency.
i think at this point you get where i'm going with this. i won't even get into the trials. that is a whole other can of worms. i would like to see the shard opened to villians to give them some sort of long trial but i kind of have the feeling that somehow there would be a difference in merits there also unless they made it co-op. there is your anecdotal evidence of the descrepencies in the merits. if you don't like that, then i don't know what to tell you at this point.
My humble opinion is that they should open Shadow Shard dimension to villains and give them own contacts so villains can do those TF's (SF's). That would be fastest way to give 4 new and really long SF's to villains.
Prunejuice is warriors drink.
So one side or the other of this issue needs to be fixed.