No way. Nothing could possibly be better than a 3:1 kill to death ratio. That's the epitome of success at PvP.
Let me cover this for everyone. The only real viable traps toon is a mm. You can make other ones work in zones. But you can make anything work in zones. Arena a traps fender or corr would be a farm target, pure and simple.
And just so we are clear rahji, I do think outside the box. I do try suboptomal builds and set ups to see what works. I am not stuck on 8v8 jump teams. I am the mutha fn king of zone pvp in this game. I don't have the time the effort or energy into arena. Plus I am antisocial as hell and refuse to use vent. What I lack in skill I compensate for with knowledge. I am also smart enough to know you really can not reinvent the wheel, but you can definitely change the tread.
Duel me.
I will work on my sig pic more when I have time.
Quote:
The mutha fn king! I like some of your zone toons, but dont u have some toons built just to drone ppl?
|
Originally Posted by ConFlict
Let me cover this for everyone. The only real viable traps toon is a mm. You can make other ones work in zones. But you can make anything work in zones. Arena a traps fender or corr would be a farm target, pure and simple.
And just so we are clear rahji, I do think outside the box. I do try suboptomal builds and set ups to see what works. I am not stuck on 8v8 jump teams. I am the mutha fn king of zone pvp in this game. I don't have the time the effort or energy into arena. Plus I am antisocial as hell and refuse to use vent. What I lack in skill I compensate for with knowledge. I am also smart enough to know you really can not reinvent the wheel, but you can definitely change the tread. |
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
Quote:
Never said it was, but it's pretty rare to find a zone PvPer worth anything that doesn't also spend a lot of time in the arena. Pretty sure that's not just a coincidence.|
Originally Posted by Dahjee
Skill I think is relative to where you are and what you have to work with. Just because arena is where you go to compete, doesn't mean it's the only place to find PvP skill Mac.
|
Quote:
| I don't care about issues and changes made to what dude. I never have, cause I'm skilled. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
The mutha fn king! I like some of your zone toons, but dont u have some toons built just to drone ppl?
|
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Quote:
But I13 reduced the impact skill can have on the game. Surely if you were skilled at PVP you'd be annoyed at this?
|
Originally Posted by Dahjee
I don't care about issues and changes made to what dude. I never have, cause I'm skilled.
|
Quote:
You say rare, but your attitude suggests unheard of and non existent. I don't believe enough time is being spent on the line that divides arena from zone PvP. Too often I believe we assume that if it works in arena it's guaranteed to work in a zone. This is true to a certain extent, but can create a learning block for many because the possibilities (whether viable sets or strategies) in an open zone are far greater than those existing in a controlled match.|
Originally Posted by macskull
Never said it was, but it's pretty rare to find a zone PvPer worth anything that doesn't also spend a lot of time in the arena. Pretty sure that's not just a coincidence.
|
Like the fact someone can use Warburg Nukes to debuff and damage a dozen heroes for 5 minutes when outnumbered 15 to 3 or something... (I hope I'm not the only one who does this)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by macskull
So, like many post-I13 zone PvPers, you've managed to pick up the illusion of having skill because the mechanics of zone PvP are dumbed down to the point where skill doesn't really matter, and most of the better players simply don't go in there because they know that. Congratulations on your monumental achievement, I guess.
|
Ok. Look it's usually best when a close buddy has to give you news like this so my apologies in advance. I doubt you will take it well.
The better players you speak of... the ones who really disliked PvP 2.0... quit the game Mac. They left and moved on to other things long long ago. The better players who stayed yet still disliked PvP 2.0, like yourself perhaps... went on to understand the new system anyway so they could stay good/better. Face it... you don't care about the mechanics as much as you care about being good/better... or you would have quit too, like the others.
The problem is that when arena 2.0 came along offering all the ability to play like it was 2008, the standards of sucess and skill and viability somehow got sucked into those checkboxes, preventing many good/better players from really investing time to see what was possible without removing TS, HD, etc... Understable indeed. However I think it took a lot of info and education away from PvPers, (esp here on the boards sorry) stopped many from investing time to stay good/better under PvP 2.0, and to this day is making it harder for new people to learn anything about PvP without it coming from the perspective of one who's grand achievements all rest in an arena with the preffered settings of 3 issues ago.
So these better players you speak of who shy away from an unpredictable zone, and cling to the thought that Zone PvP is dumbed down and beneath their skill level... well they're just like the people who have been zoning and getting good/better for the past year and a half who think arena is kinda dumbed down and beneath their Enjoyment level. Rare I know... but they're out there.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
But I13 reduced the impact skill can have on the game.
|
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
Quote:
No.|
Originally Posted by Dahjee
Only because the better players are still thinking in terms of ST. We'll get there X. We will.
|
TS + HD = less skill required to get a kill in zones.
FACT.
This is on of the few things unanimously agreed upon by every serious PVPer left in the game. You do not know better than the collective PVP community. If someone is less able to evade & heal it is obviously easier to kill them. If it is easier to kill them then it requires less skill to kill them.
GG.
Quote:
pwnt.
|
Originally Posted by xanatos
no.
Ts + hd = less skill required to get a kill in zones. Fact. This is on of the few things unanimously agreed upon by every serious pvper left in the game. You do not know better than the collective pvp community. If someone is less able to evade & heal it is obviously easier to kill them. If it is easier to kill them then it requires less skill to kill them. Gg. |
Quote:
Gems of knowledge Im sure. |
Originally Posted by Dahjee
Like the fact someone can use Warburg Nukes to debuff and damage a dozen heroes for 5 minutes when outnumbered 15 to 3 or something... (I hope I'm not the only one who does this)
So these better players you speak of who shy away from an unpredictable zone, and cling to the thought that Zone PvP is dumbed down and beneath their skill level... well they're just like the people who have been zoning and getting good/better for the past year and a half who think arena is kinda dumbed down and beneath their Enjoyment level. Rare I know... but they're out there. Only because the better players are still thinking in terms of ST. We'll get there X. We will. |
Funny thing is, I've watched matches where the arena players would take on zone scrubs. Even when keeping lolzone rules on, the arena player wiped the floor with the zone player. Arena builds are optimized and are built to deal the most effectively with any other player.
The zone rules hurt the zone players more than the arena players. The only reason arena players choose the turn them off is because its extremely unenjoyable to whoop on on bad players while moving half as fast as they could.
As for getting somewhere, **** that awful mess. The closer we get to i12 rules the happier Im going to be.
Quote:
As in AoEs have about 1% chance in hell of being useful in arena other than CC/Disruprtion powers on occasion while in a zone the oppourtunity presents itself time and time again. In PvPLand though as opposed to PVE, the numbers and stuff get all funny and killing groups one at a time is more skillful than killing them all at once.
|
Originally Posted by Dahjee
Only because the better players are still thinking in terms of Single Target.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
TS + HD = less skill required to get a kill in zones.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
This is on of the few things unanimously agreed upon by every serious PVPer left in the game. You do not know better than the collective PVP community. If someone is less able to evade & heal it is obviously easier to kill them. If it is easier to kill them then it requires less skill to kill them.
GG. |
I get points easily, which is why I doubled mine with yours!
Exit (thread) now please. Please. I can't go any slower. gg indeed.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
Quote:
OMFG WE ARE GETTING SOMEWHERE!|
Originally Posted by Dahjee
I agree...
|
So we now both agree that it takes less skill to kill someone in PVP 2.0.
Good.
Now let's consider your next claim:
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dahjee
...However, it also means that it equally requires more skill to keep others alive in a zone. Isn't it easier to keep others alive in the Arena X without HD and TS?
|
1. Travel Suppression means that when a team-mate is attacked, it is easier for him to be immediately attacked again (as his means of escape are suppressed.) This means that any team-mate under TS will receive more damage than he would have in I12. This means he will need to be healed more frequently. This leads to the next problem...
2. Heal Decay means that if you heal someone too frequently then your heals decrease in power until they ultimately stop working. This means that no matter how skilled you are at healing a team-mate, eventually there will come a point where the game stops letting you heal them.
All of this means that surviving in zones is a binary thing. You need phase/hibernate to survive. Otherwise all a healer does is delay the inevitable.
It does take skill to keep your team-mates alive when playing in Arena with no TS & HD. It is the job of you the healer versus the incoming damage of the enemies. No Travel Suppression means that team-mates are able to evade & move around even when taking damage. This makes it harder to heal them because they are able to be further away from you / around corners / etc. Basically; It is harder to land a RANGED heal, when your teammate is trying to avoid RANGED attacks.
In zones, players aren't able to avoid ranged attacks. So it naturally follows that they're not able to dodge ranged heals. Therefore it takes less skill to land a heal in zones.
Let's recap:
- TS makes it easier to land heals.
- TS means that team-mates take so much damage that spamming heals is unavoidable / delaying heals is impossible.
- HD removes skill completely by stopping your powers from working.
All three of these facts combine to prove systematically that there is less skill in keeping team-mates alive in I13 Zone PVP as compared to I12 zone PVP/
If it takes less skill to keep people alive & it takes less skill to kill people (the latter of which you admitted to be true) then it naturally follows that I13 PVP takes less skill than I12 PVP.
As an addendum, I would appreciate it if you responded to this post as a whole. Cutting it up and quoting it line by line takes comments out of context & shows that you are not good at debating.
Quote:
I have no doubt. I respect the arena and it's dedicated players for their desire to be such optimized and effective toons. I genuinely do. I have no choice but to shy away from it on some toons because I can recognize that toon's strengths/weaknesses will not fit into that setting. Other toons I have optimized and pimped out and would do fine in arena regardless simply cause I know how now to get farmed, basically. (that's mostly what matters, getting kills is secondary to that most often unless you tlk dat shat, lol) |
Originally Posted by _Lith_
Funny thing is, I've watched matches where the arena players would take on zone scrubs. Even when keeping lolzone rules on, the arena player wiped the floor with the zone player. Arena builds are optimized and are built to deal the most effectively with any other player.
|
Arena however as I stated before, means it is strictly a PvP enviroment. An enviroment that pretty much requires anyone who wishes to have PvP creditials to go to and compete to earn them, and one that allows for true, competitive PvP.
Fun and Skill for an average Arena diehard... may revolve around being able to rack up kills while on an optimized toon with other optimized toons helping to rack up kills versus other optimized toons wishing to do the same to you and your group before the tiimer runs out. It's completely understandable and fair to enjoy such a thing.
Zone means you might want to figure out how to deal 4 opponents and 2 EBs against just you and one other... as well as many other f*d up situations. This is the part where the skilled arena folk fear getting farmed and start calling for help or bcasting for others to arena them or QQ'ing about npcs or something. Understandable as well.
Fun and Skill for an average Zone diehard... may revovle around getting lots of drops form both good and bad players, having toons to switch to instantly when new threats are presented to one's team, or selflessly maintaining a PvE role effectively aka less foucused on getting kills and more focused on simply CC or Disruption, debuffing, healing, rezzing, recalling etc... and several other things I left out.
Feel free to deabte this. By now I'm sure you realize I'm more than happy to respond. However my overall point in the matter was that... based on two years of experiecnce of PvPing with traps in a zone. I think that the presence of one or several Good Trap/ Defenders in a zone would provide a much needed mobile safe zone for many heros ATs that require reliable AS, melee, and mez protection... especially in SC. Why? Because it isn't offered by any other set alone.
Feel free however to take the opinion of sucessful and honored arena goers with 0 experience with the set in PvP though. Makes little difference to me. I'm just trying to help.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
Fine X, I'll respond to your last post as a whole.
You quoted my response to you staing that if it's easier to kill someone in a zone than it's requires less skill, and I agreed which made you happy until I pointed out the fact that if the system made it easier to kill someone in a zone and require less skill, then it must be harder to keep someone alive and require more skill to do.
You went on to tell me I'm wrong... that keeping others alive in a zone wasn't harder in a zone and didn't require more skill because healing can't prevent the inevitable and phase/hibernate is better.
wut?
I want to thank you for defining terms I've only known since I13 went into beta.
Your next point I beleive was that keeping people alive in arena requires skill because without TS your teammates get too fast and away from you when there about to die and that it can be difficult to land a ranged heal on a boat map or tech map or perez map when they go arond th corner... while those skilless healers and dedicated support toons in a zone simply have this tiny whole open zone to try and keep up with teammates...
wut agin?
Your final point was something along the lines of zone players not being able to aviod ranged attacks and/or dodge ranged heals, which basically lead me to believe that you are dumb, and I am so terribly sorry for revealing that to you but to keep from laughing at you I decided to just get it out and put you on ignore in my mind for a minute.
I get it now. Your f*n wit me right?
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
Quote:
Well this is news to me. Its complete ******** but okie. Mostly the "skilled arena folk" just roll up everyone in the zone. I've been in the zone where Hot/Silit rolled about 12 villains up by themselves. |
Originally Posted by Dahjee
Zone means you might want to figure out how to deal 4 opponents and 2 EBs against just you and one other... as well as many other f*d up situations. This is the part where the skilled arena folk fear getting farmed and start calling for help or bcasting for others to arena them or QQ'ing about npcs or something. Understandable as well.
|
Now you're making things up and its starting to shape up into a really good internet fight. Im enjoying it a lot. Please do continue about arena players losing to zone players.
Dear Dahjee,
I have pvped quite a long time now, have a varied amount of toons and I know the pvp system well enough to know that the Trap set is way low on the food chain of "overall" viable pvp toons.
Can someone make the Traps set work and get kills? Yes and only under certain circumstances because the set has many limitations compared. Anything can seem to perfom decently in large or very organized teams but take those two away and you have a very subpar set.
You may have found a nitch in SC on Virtue but honestly, SC has mostly low HP, poorly slotted, tight and limited power builds that are controlled by newbie fight club pvpers. In that zone against that quality the Trap set does ok so more power to ya, but I'm sorry to say that the 50 RV zone play for a Trap set was/is/always will be much more of a challenge for that subpar and situational set.
By the very nature of the Trap set powers there are way too many counters for it to be considered an overall good pvp set. If most of zone play were stand in one place and fight then I would have a trapper on my team everytime or make one myself, but unfortunately that is not how zones play out.
You have your nitch and tricks that work situationally against newb fight club pvpers, but please stop pretending that traps is anywhere near a competitive pvp toon when there are so many other better choices out there even among the other subpar sets.
Thanks for reading,
OI
A very sad story about War Witch and the neglected kitty. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=219670
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Black_Barrier
Guess it's hard to click while actively trying to keep the drool away from the keyboard...
|
Nice counterargument Dahjee.
You used reductio ad absurdem when relaying my points, then responded to them with the word "wut" twice. That's basically akin to repeating what I said in a silly voice to make me look silly.
Wake me up when you feel like being an adult & actually disprove anything I wrote.
GGx2
Quote:
i like you
|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
Nice counterargument Dahjee.
You used reductio ad absurdem when relaying my points, then responded to them with the word "wut" twice. That's basically akin to repeating what I said in a silly voice to make me look silly. Wake me up when you feel like being an adult & actually disprove anything I wrote. GGx2 |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by _Lith_
Well this is news to me. Its complete ******** but okie. Mostly the "skilled arena folk" just roll up everyone in the zone. I've been in the zone where Hot/Silit rolled about 12 villains up by themselves.
Now you're making things up and its starting to shape up into a really good internet fight. Im enjoying it a lot. Please do continue about arena players losing to zone players. |
You missed the point again.
I actually agreed that's most good arena players would win in a match against a zone scrub... I don't remember saying anything about arena players losing to zone players.
You want me to believe that anyone who arenas can walk into a zone and roll everyone there regardless of the odds and what not against good zone players? Fine. If you're right and I'm wrong about this statement
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dahjee
Zone means you might want to figure out how to deal 4 opponents and 2 EBs against just you and one other... as well as many other f*d up situations. This is the part where the skilled arena folk fear getting farmed and start calling for help or bcasting for others to arena them or QQ'ing about npcs or something. Understandable as well.
|
Arena player do not fear but enjoy being farmed in zones when solo vs 4 good zone players and 2 heavies.
Arena players never call for help cause thats dumb in a zone. No, usually theres no need for teammates or communication at all when arena players go to zone. They solo zones all the time against 20 people and 3 heavies at once, all the time!
Arena players don't ask for arena matches in zones, cause there arena players... why would they, um wait. Arena players don't arena in zone cause they prefer the npcs and heavies of arena, no wait that's not it. tbh I have no idea how of why you feel the need to disagree about dumb stuff. If you've never ever ever heard a good skilled arena player come into a zone and advertise for an arena match. I can only asume you that your zone experience has been limited to BB or something.
Finally if you're right and I'm wrong, then good arena players never QQ about npcs in a zone, or QQ about anything ever really, except for PvP system as a whole when in zone, and when you want arena settings that they don't etc, or when you come to deh boards and lol at arena...
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
Quote:
You're really making yourself look more ridicolous everytime you try and counter. Your logic is flawed. At this point in time, I honestly think you're just enjoying trolling. | Finally if you're right and I'm wrong, then good arena players never QQ about npcs in a zone, or QQ about anything ever really, except for PvP system as a whole when in zone, and when you want arena settings that they don't etc, or when you come to deh boards and lol at arena... |
Congratz though, on getting a few riled up.
Quote:
|
Arena player do not fear but enjoy being farmed in zones when solo vs 4 good zone players and 2 heavies. Arena players never call for help cause thats dumb in a zone. No, usually theres no need for teammates or communication at all when arena players go to zone. They solo zones all the time against 20 people and 3 heavies at once, all the time! |
Quote:
Xanatos, why don't you just write my response for me, then I can see what it is you want me to say to make you feel as though you made a good point.|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
Nice counterargument Dahjee.
You used reductio ad absurdem when relaying my points, then responded to them with the word "wut" twice. That's basically akin to repeating what I said in a silly voice to make me look silly. Wake me up when you feel like being an adult & actually disprove anything I wrote. GGx2 |
You need me to disprove your solid and proven fact that states zone players are unable to avoid ranged attacks? Really?
Do I really have to be all serious when trying to disprove another one of your proven facts that states if you keep healing someone in a zone... the healing power will stop working altogether?
Or the one about healing being easier in large open zone and harder in a small arena map because it's harder to keep up with temmates in the smaller arena map.
No. No need to be all serious with these facts, because they aren't facts... so I choose instead to be funny and make jokes about them... sorry.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
lol at you guys still arguing with him.
How long will it take before you realize he will simply never get it?
Quote:
Odd. To speak on the OP, and make reasonable suggestions related to it, and spend 8 pages getting certified to have an opinion on the matter. I see myself as responding to trolls with class and dignity and respect and humor. |
Originally Posted by JKwervo
You're really making yourself look more ridicolous everytime you try and counter. Your logic is flawed. At this point in time, I honestly think you're just enjoying trolling.
Congratz though, on getting a few riled up. You must've been PvPing with fiteclubbers |
You quoted and repsonded to heavy sarcasm btw. Perhaps you didn't want me to be the only one making myself look ridiculous?
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
Musta missed this:
Quote:
GGx3
|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
Wake me up when you feel like being an adult & actually disprove anything I wrote.
|
Quote:
I actually think you just missed the point. |
Originally Posted by Dahjee
You missed the point again.
I actually agreed that's most good arena players would win in a match against a zone scrub... I don't remember saying anything about arena players losing to zone players. You want me to believe that anyone who arenas can walk into a zone and roll everyone there regardless of the odds and what not against good zone players? Fine. If you're right and I'm wrong about this statement then things would sound like this: Arena player do not fear but enjoy being farmed in zones when solo vs 4 good zone players and 2 heavies. Arena players never call for help cause thats dumb in a zone. No, usually theres no need for teammates or communication at all when arena players go to zone. They solo zones all the time against 20 people and 3 heavies at once, all the time! Arena players don't ask for arena matches in zones, cause there arena players... why would they, um wait. Arena players don't arena in zone cause they prefer the npcs and heavies of arena, no wait that's not it. tbh I have no idea how of why you feel the need to disagree about dumb stuff. If you've never ever ever heard a good skilled arena player come into a zone and advertise for an arena match. I can only asume you that your zone experience has been limited to BB or something. Finally if you're right and I'm wrong, then good arena players never QQ about npcs in a zone, or QQ about anything ever really, except for PvP system as a whole when in zone, and when you want arena settings that they don't etc, or when you come to deh boards and lol at arena... |
You stated you can deal with bad situations better than the arena players and I gave you an example of two arena players rolling up an entire zone.
Now as I've said before, the reason they like to arena is zones are slow and boring. Arena forces action and you can move.
I like your attempts at misdirection. Way to argue over dumb stuff.
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-