Knock Back vs Knock Down/Up

I seek understanding and perhaps a means for a solution...

I have several scrappers and tankers, being melee based, I end up using Kinetic Combats to acquire the desperately needed Defense against Smash and Lethal.

Among the Kinetic Combats there is a recipe which does extra knockback.

While my Axe tanker alledgedly does knock-down and ups, because of the Kinetic Combat Knockback IO, like my Scrappers as well, the game exprience became a Hit, knock the mob way away, run after it, be ranged pummeled by the mob, get melee struck by it when I get next to it, I hit and knock it away, run after it, get ranged pummeled, melee strucked by the mob, get my hit and subsequent knock him away, rinse wash and repeat.

This chasing of the mob, is quite annoying, yet I need away to make my Tanker and Scrappers more survivable using the game sets.

I know someone will reply with, just don't use that set. While its easy to say, there are no other sets that would provide me the effect I need for survibabilty with out the blasted knock-back effect.

As I understand, somehow the MAG strength of the Knock effect, reduced by the victim's inherent resistance to Knock dictates how far you are knocked away. Thus if the effect is 1 or less, you are effectively knocked down/up, greater than MAG 1 you are knocked away.

Am I understanding this right?

Would suggesting to the devs to re-look at Knock effects, and split the two into different effects, where MAG is used to see if the effect goes off in the case of Knock-up/down and have no knock away effect regardless of the MAG effect difference; while Knock-Back continues to work under the same mechanics as it is now?

Hugs

Stormy

Are you sure that Kinetic Combat does what you are seeking?

When I look at its set bonuses, I don't see anything about KB (protection or resistance) at all.

There is a set bonus of 3 pts. KB protection in Kinetic Crash for having 4 pieces of the set - but that one is a Knockback set and 5 of the 6 pieces increase KB.

Also - nice try putting your standard "KB should be KD" suggestion here in the form of a Player Question.

You only need four out of the five Kinetic Combats to get the defense bonus. You can use the four enhancements that don't have the proc.

EDIT: If you're really getting 'pummeled' in the time it takes you to hit the F button, you've got more problems than knockback.

First, when something is knocked back, it is effectively held, until it stands up. It cannot hit you until it stands up. If it takes you longer to get to the enemy than it takes him to stand up, you either have stupidly slow reaction time, or you should turn off rooted.

Second, you seem to be relying on melee defense. If an enemy is standing toe to toe with you and fires a gun, it's still a ranged attack. Whether it hits from 80 feet away or 8 inches, melee defense will never protect you from a ranged attack. You are either exaggerating the problem in your mind, or you are this annoyed with having to follow your target that you create a problem that doesn't exist.

Your post is full of ignorance, otherwise mine wouldn't be this full of snark. You don't have to use the knockback IO. Even if you did, it's only a slight chance to knockdown. It has to fire at the same time that your other powers fire their chance to knock down to become knock back, which is a ridiculously low chance. Even then, it would only be a mag 1.34 knockback, so they can't be flying 'way away' unless you are fighting green and blue con mobs, in which case, they shouldn't be 'pummeling' you. Furthermore, if they were green and blue con, it wouldn't matter whether you had the chance for knockdown IO slotted. They'd still get knocked back.

Finally, get your lame attempt at a hidden agenda out of the player question section.

Is the Wiki incorrect?

For those with the hidden agenda, can you please tell me what that hidden agenda is?

I simply and clearly said, I don't want to have to go chasing each mob I hit all over the map every time I hit them, and I sam eeking a reasonable solution to that!

What is your problem with that?

I been systematically replacing the Kinetic Combat KBs with the other incredibly much more expensive choice, that has reduced some of the hit and chase annoying situations.

I still would like to see a "MAG" increase only to be used in a test to see if the mob is affected by the knock effect, with out it automatically becoming a knock-away effect. I do understand Knock-away is great, and do use it with my Blasters, but for my melee its simply annoying.

I wonder about those who ciritique my ignorance on the subject matter, I thought comming here was a way to get a better understanding and be able to propose situations and get feedback which are constructive and educational. Did I miss-understood the purpose of this specific forum?

Once more, please explain, why asking this is such a horrible, earth shattering issue?

Stormy

It's not, but when there is a much, much simpler way to fix this (i.e., don't use the KD proc), it seems kind of unnecessary.

You would be better off asking for that proc to be switched to Knock-up.

Unlike other "mez" the magnitude IS duration - in this case, distance - of the knockback. What you are asking for - that mag only be checked to see if it affects the target - would require a complete rewrite of the mechanics of Knocks, and piss off a good number of people besides.

Also the alternative - changing the existing knock "down" into knockup - would probably also piss off a good number of people, as a lot of melee attacks used to have clear knockback, but was changing to knockdown. This was done so those who wanted to could slip in an enhancement to put it back to knockback.

If you get an immobilize effect, most of them include knock resistance... but that also completely protects them from being knocked.

It is not game-breaking. What it is, is a lot of work, for very little payoff, that doesn't need to be done, as the problem with the current situation is entirely of your own making.

Basically, IOs are an optional system. If you want a specific set bonus, but don't want the effects of that set, then that is a choice that you have to make. Neither the Devs, nor the other players, are forcing you to slot that set, and there are likely other ways to go about getting what you want without the penalty that you dislike.

To change how KD works would require the Devs to completely rewrite how the KD/KB mechanic works, and it really just doesn't need to be done. As such, it is much easier for you to change what you're going for, than to change how the game works.

All of the above, and further: If you absolutely must keep the IOs the way you have them, learn to position yourself so that the mob flies into a wall, instead of down the hallway. That way you chase much less (and it's kinda satisfying to watch, too).

Knock Up attacks only work on female enemies, anyway.

Noxilicious, ladies and gentlemen, give him a hand! He'll be here all the week. Don't forget to tip your waitress!

I apologize - I did misread the OP.

I guess I was reading it thru the various anti-KB threads she had previously posted down in S & I (in which the difference between KB & KD was explained to her as being merely a difference in MAG and what that value is).

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...=Stormfront_NA

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=207358

I allowed my other reading to color what she was asking in this thread. Probably because it ended with this suggestion:

Bottom line, some sets that are desirable for their bonuses are not so desirable for their other qualities. Some enhance KB, (which I also hate, so you have my sympathies there!) some don't enhance attributes you'd like them to; for instance, most mez sets don't enhance damage.

That's just a limitation of the Invention system that you learn to live with. I would never slot an attack with just Taunt set IOs or just Stun set IOs for that reason. In the case of Kinetic Combat, it's tempting to slot the KD proc since it's much, much less expensive than some of the other KC enhancements, but the KD can be a problem.

You have a few options:

1) Bite the bullet, spend the influence/infamy and buy the other IOs. (Or save your merits and get the expensive ones that way.)
2) Slot it in a non-KD/KB attack. If you've taken Tough/Weave, Boxing is a good choice; if you're not using it as an attack, you can slot it with the cheapest KC IOs you can find.
3) Slot it in a Knock *Up* attack if you have one; the KD proc will just increase the mag of the KU, which is much less annoying than knockback, IMO.
4) Slot the KD proc, and live with the fact that it'll cause KB on occasion. Since it's a proc, it'll only fire some of the time, at other times your attack will work as usual.

Your OP seems to suggest that you are attributing the fact that your attacks now do KB rather than KD to the Kinetic Combat proc. If that's the case, since the proc doesn't fire every time you use the attack, something else has to be going on other than just the KD proc to change your attacks to KB. The most obvious cause is if you're fighting less than even level foes; it has always been the case that using a KD attack on anything lower than level 0 will result in KB rather than KD.