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There's a non-obvious one I've run into on occasion: certain foes, particularly Clockwork, are extra-vulnerable to knockback. When fighting them, knockdown attacks will turn into knockback attacks.
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Originally Posted by Finduilas
Your OP seems to suggest that you are attributing the fact that your attacks now do KB rather than KD to the Kinetic Combat proc. If that's the case, since the proc doesn't fire every time you use the attack, something else has to be going on other than just the KD proc to change your attacks to KB. The most obvious cause is if you're fighting less than even level foes; it has always been the case that using a KD attack on anything lower than level 0 will result in KB rather than KD.
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Heh, my Emp/ENG defender looks at that as extra mitigation. When you're as squishy as he is, any extra time you can leave those bad guys hanging on meathooks is a bonus. |
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
My martial artists love Crane Kicking Freak Tanks, among others, into various architectural features and watching them flail helplessly with their heads lodged in the wall/pillar/crate/etcetera.
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Thank you Arcanaville and Finduilas for taking the time in giving a constructive and useful explanation. My gratitude to RobertoLyon for defending a Lady's honor.
To answer a few questions, I have tried in another thread (Suggestions) to suggest a way to stop having my Knock-down converted to Knock-back when a KB is included in a set. What I got, from some of the names above and many others is the standard: You are an ignorant fool, stupid, learn the game, etc. Instead of a clear reason of what I have asked or suggested is dumb; it seems the folks simply stating I am stupid is a totally compelling explanation.
To be honest, when I did make the suggestion, I did not know the exact mechanics on how Knock-down/back actually worked; all I knew was what I was experiencing in the game, and frankly did not like, and wanted to see if it was possible to make changes to accomodate my desire. In that thread some of the mechanics were explained, but no attempt was made to find a way to remedy the issue, just an explanation of how things work, which did explain the why things worked the way it did.
So I turned to the player help thread, expecting to take my understanding and the how to possibly fix this to the next level. Arcanaville, and Finduilas provided that input I been asking and the consequences that went with them; they did not have to call me names to replace intelligent information exchange.
I respect some of the practical solutions some of the players proposed, I think they are well intentioned, and perhaps useful, but those solutions are more of live with it kind of thing, than try to fix it, its like having a broken tooth, and told to chew with your other side as a permanent fix.
I always thought, a healthy discussion on new ideas, game upgrades, game changes to be a good thing to keep the game dynamic and more fun. Thruthfully not all suggestions will be great ones, nor all will be bad. I wonder those who has so much fun maligning me, how many suggestions they made (if any) and have any of them been implemented by the devs? Have they contributed any? As stupid as I have been portraid to be, I had several suggestions actually instituted, for example, when you go to tailors, you have a chioce to get a whole motiff set up front as opposed to have to go the different parts of the uniform and set them, it was my suggestion. So yeah, I may not bat 1000, but at least I have the courage to go to bat, and have hit the ball out of the park a few times.
Stormy
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First, Pot meet kettle. You write a little post about how nice and constructive people are and but don't have an issue insulting others. Oookay.|
Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
Maybe you can break out the box of crayons and explain why so?
Stormy |
Second, I like to know where names were called? For me, I agreed with one poster, and then quoted another, emphasing his opinion.
Then some poster attacks me, telling me to leave and never come back, but failed to ever look at my posting history or anothers.
Want to try again?
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Sadly, this is what passes for debate on the Intarwebz most of the time. I won't spend an hour discussing psychological whys and such, but suffice to say that it's *really* easy for otherwise reasonable individuals to come off as dismissive and rude. You gotta have a thick skin. |
Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
.. I have tried in another thread (Suggestions) ... What I got, from some of the names above and many others is the standard: You are an ignorant fool, stupid, learn the game, etc. Instead of a clear reason of what I have asked or suggested is dumb; it seems the folks simply stating I am stupid is a totally compelling explanation.
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Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
I respect some of the practical solutions some of the players proposed, I think they are well intentioned, and perhaps useful, but those solutions are more of live with it kind of thing, than try to fix it, its like having a broken tooth, and told to chew with your other side as a permanent fix.
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Granted, sometimes a change is warranted to help a small minority (remember the whole Sonic vertigo issue?) but in this case we're talking about a major change to the game mechanics to fix something that most would agree is a minor issue.
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Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
I always thought, a healthy discussion on new ideas, game upgrades, game changes to be a good thing to keep the game dynamic and more fun.
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Though I usually try to stay out of forum squabbles, the overt and ongoing hostility you and Dechs have shown toward this poster is truly baffling.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
First, Pot meet kettle. You write a little post about how nice and constructive people are and but don't have an issue insulting others. Oookay.
Second, I like to know where names were called? For me, I agreed with one poster, and then quoted another, emphasing his opinion. Then some poster attacks me, telling me to leave and never come back, but failed to ever look at my posting history or anothers. Want to try again? |
Stormfront's comment that you quoted could just as easily be interpreted as sarcasm ("yeah, you think I'm so dumb, then use crayons to explain it") than as name-calling. That's how I read it the first time through.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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Again, what hostility? I can't agree with some one? |
Originally Posted by Finduilas
Though I usually try to stay out of forum squabbles, the overt and ongoing hostility you and Dechs have shown toward this poster is truly baffling.
Stormfront's comment that you quoted could just as easily be interpreted as sarcasm ("yeah, you think I'm so dumb, then use crayons to explain it") than as name-calling. That's how I read it the first time through. |
Then I quote Aett and pose a question yet again?
Please show me some evidence here or be like the above poster jumping in for no reason.
And yes, I read the OP's statement as a personal attack on us, not the other way around.
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I read it as a thinly veiled attempt to further the "Knockback should be knockdown" agenda the OP had posted before, all framed as a loaded question.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
And yes, I read the OP's statement as a personal attack on us, not the other way around.
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The OP quoted a post explaining knockback in a post asking for an explanation of knockback. Ignorant.
The OP refuses to use the search button or look up the wiki. Lazy and ignorant.
All the innocent sweet talk? I'm not buying it.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
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Penny, if you want to keep it between you and Stormfront, take it to PM. Posting publically means that your posts are open to public comment.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
Again, what hostility? I can't agree with some one?
Then I quote Aett and pose a question yet again? Please show me some evidence here or be like the above poster jumping in for no reason. And yes, I read the OP's statement as a personal attack on us, not the other way around. |
As for evidence of hostility, I quote Dechs:
"Your post is full of ignorance, otherwise mine wouldn't be this full of snark. "
And
"Finally, get your lame attempt at a hidden agenda out of the player question section."
The latter quote is one you quoted in a separate post and explicitly agreed with. Since then, you've responded to anyone who disagreed with you with defensiveness and hostility.
If you choose to interpret what Stormfront said as a personal attack, so be it, but the fact that you insist on doing so reinforces the impression that you are being negative and hostile for no good reason.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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Are you telling me how to post like the other guy? |
Originally Posted by Finduilas
Penny, if you want to keep it between you and Stormfront, take it to PM. Posting publically means that your posts are open to public comment.
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As for evidence of hostility, I quote Dechs: "Your post is full of ignorance, otherwise mine wouldn't be this full of snark. " And "Finally, get your lame attempt at a hidden agenda out of the player question section." The latter quote is one you quoted in a separate post and explicitly agreed with. Since then, you've responded to anyone who disagreed with you with defensiveness and hostility. If you choose to interpret what Stormfront said as a personal attack, so be it, but the fact that you insist on doing so reinforces the impression that you are being negative and hostile for no good reason. |
The next post was emphasizing Aett - you are calling that disagreement? But not Aett? (Sorry, Aett, I really like your posts. Just making a point here.)
Then some poster jumps telling me to leave and NEVER come back. And I can't reply to that? So it okay for others to be negative but not me?
S'alright. Not exactly sure what is going on here anyways.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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No clue what you mean by this. What I'm saying that in essence, telling me to butt out makes no sense in a public forum. You post in public, it becomes a public conversation that anyone can join. |
Originally Posted by PennyPA
Are you telling me how to post like the other guy?
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There you go. I agreed it was a lame ATTEMPT. See that word after "lame"? I posted after I have read the OP's first post to this thread and the previous thread before and agreed it was a lame ATTEMPT. Clear for you? The next post was emphasizing Aett - you are calling that disagreement? But not Aett? (Sorry, Aett, I really like your posts. Just making a point here.) Then some poster jumps telling me to leave and NEVER come back. And I can't reply to that? So it okay for others to be negative but not me? |
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
Point of the matter is the OP already was told the mechanics of how knockback/down/up works.
And now the OP knows why such changes would be mechanically difficult, a waste of development resources for little gain, etc.
With that said, there was no need for snark. Arcanaville explained it all WITHOUT being snarky.
For the OP: There was no need to post the suggestion in this question. If it's a true question, ask the question.
If it's the same suggestion again, just post back in the suggestions thread.
You're going to have to realize that most of the players here LIKE THE KB/KD/KU system as is.
Also, IOs are optional. Don't want the effect, don't slot it.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
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Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
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FWIW, Aett, I'm not either.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
S'alright. Not exactly sure what is going on here anyways.
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My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
Quote:
I think you guys should drop it before this thread gets locked/deleted. I'd like to be able to quote it, the next the op makes the same suggestion again.
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Originally Posted by Finduilas
No clue what you mean by this. What I'm saying that in essence, telling me to butt out makes no sense in a public forum. You post in public, it becomes a public conversation that anyone can join.
I found your attitude toward the OP to be very hostile, and since then you've been, IMO, defensive and hostile toward anyone who disagreed with you, even posters who did so politely. Berating me yet again for expressing that opinion, is far more likely to reinforce it than change it. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
Why do you care if the OP makes the same suggestion again? Heaven knows it's not exactly uncommon for a poster to have a pet peeve they post about regularly.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I think you guys should drop it before this thread gets locked/deleted. I'd like to be able to quote it, the next the op makes the same suggestion again.
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But I'm pretty much done with this conversation anyway.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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I don't, but I'm pretty sure it's against the forum rules. (When it's enforced . . .)|
Originally Posted by Finduilas
Why do you care if the OP makes the same suggestion again? Heaven knows it's not exactly uncommon for a poster to have a pet peeve they post about regularly.
But I'm pretty much done with this conversation anyway. |
And if they post the same suggestion again, we can tell them again the same reasons why it's a bad suggestion.
And this time we'll have one more thread to refer them to in response.
Just as they have the right to suggestion the same pet peeve again, we have the right to state why we disagree with that suggestion. As you pointed out, such is the "problem" with it being a PUBLIC forum.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I think you guys should drop it before this thread gets locked/deleted. I'd like to be able to quote it, the next the op makes the same suggestion again.
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Agreed (
).Hopefully locked sooner than later.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
S'alright. Not exactly sure what is going on here anyways.
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Aett, it's just that, I lurk on these forums, and play this game, precisely BECAUSE I find it a respite from the vapid inanity of just about every other gaming site/forum, and the players are all so smart and funny and kind and helpful.
On any other site, the insults and name-calling would have been par for the course, and I wouldn't even have taken notice. HERE, it really jumps out at me, especially in the Player Questions section.
I've already apologized for lumping one poster in with another, because they used a quote to support the idea, if not the insulting language, of the quoted poster. And perhaps my line about leaving and never coming back was outta line.
But I just want this forum to remain an oasis of intelligent, clever debate and discussion, and feel that insulting someone goes against that ideal.
I've learned my lesson, however, and won't call anyone out publically, no matter how rude their post. That's what the Report Post button is for.
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Argh! That means i need to find a new place to post!|
Originally Posted by RobertoLyon
But I just want this forum to remain an oasis of intelligent, clever debate and discussion<snyp>.
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i'm rather glad Arcanaville posted the detailed explanation of KB/KU mechanics here. i mean, i knew the basics of how it works, and i thought from his posts that the OP did as well, but i guess it was something that was known, but not properly understood. Or something. Now that the OP understands why separating knock down and knock back functionality is very non-trivial and unlikely to happen i think that the thread served some useful purpose after all.
Besides, the more info on how the game systems interact is always helpful. It would almost be worthwhile to compile a guide to CoH/V's under the hood game mechanics and subsystems by compiling various Dev and forumite posts on how the game functions into a single document. There's a lot of informative material scattered throughout the forums.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Geez, Arcana, no wonder people think you're an "unofficial redname"! |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I try to be as polite as possible in the Player Questions forum specifically, regardless of the question or questioner because new players that come to this forum specifically will likely not know any of the side issues related to a post. Its the one place where I think there is an excuse to be ignorant of the complexities of the game and the forums. Even if I think someone deserves a thwacking, the newbees and lurkers of this forum do not and I don't want to discourage anyone from asking questions.
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Not that I don't try to sound the same.
Now, my question to this point to Stormfront is that is there some reason that you MUST use the Knockback Enhancement in this set? What are you trying to accomplish? You clearly do not want the the Flight/Run/Jump speed increase for the whole set, that is minor compared to the Melee Defense bonus which is the stated goal. So what it the reason why you are unable to simply skip the Chance to Knockdown proc and not use it?
What are you trying to achieve with the Chance to Knockdown proc? Are you trying to overcome the magnitude of foes' resistance to your Knockdown? Are you trying to increase your chance of having a Knockdown occur?
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Paragonwiki is your best bet there. For example, they have a page on Knoockback. Its not complete, but it has all of the basics.
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
It would almost be worthwhile to compile a guide to CoH/V's under the hood game mechanics and subsystems by compiling various Dev and forumite posts on how the game functions into a single document. There's a lot of informative material scattered throughout the forums.
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Quote:
A bit more info, (not really clarified by ParagonWiki) Resistance and Protection from Knockback seem to work a little different from normal status protection. Protection actually reduces the magnitude of Knockback, and thus its distance. Reducing it below 0.75 turns it into Knockdown and below 0 stops it. This is a guess, but I believe Resistance reduces the distance of the Knockback after the final magnitude - protection formula has been applied. So both Protection and Resistance reduce distance thrown, whereas for other status effects they change chance of effect and duration respectively. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Paragonwiki is your best bet there. For example, they have a page on Knoockback. Its not complete, but it has all of the basics.
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I actually tend to use "resistance" to refer to both resistance and protection from Knockback, which is how I meant it above. I think the only real difference between them is that Resistance won't stop Knockdown from happening at all, while Protection will.
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Different but same. Resistance affects the strength of an effect, and most knockback powers define the strength of their KB effect to be its magnitude, thus resistance reduces magnitude. Most conventional mez powers define their mezzing effects strength to be their duration, and thus resistance reduces duration.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
A bit more info, (not really clarified by ParagonWiki) Resistance and Protection from Knockback seem to work a little different from normal status protection. Protection actually reduces the magnitude of Knockback, and thus its distance. Reducing it below 0.75 turns it into Knockdown and below 0 stops it. This is a guess, but I believe Resistance reduces the distance of the Knockback after the final magnitude - protection formula has been applied. So both Protection and Resistance reduce distance thrown, whereas for other status effects they change chance of effect and duration respectively.
I actually tend to use "resistance" to refer to both resistance and protection from Knockback, which is how I meant it above. I think the only real difference between them is that Resistance won't stop Knockdown from happening at all, while Protection will. |
As strange as it may seem, this is how powers are defined. Each effect of a power has three quantities: Scale, Magnitude, and Duration. It also has a type: Magnitude or Duration (a simplification for our purposes). If the effect is type: Magnitude then the magnitude of the effect is its scale and the magnitude field is ignored. If the effect is type: Duration then the duration of the effect is its scale and the duration field is ignored. Basically, there are two kinds of effects:
Scale (magnitude) and Duration
and
Scale (duration) and Magnitude
Resistance always affects Scale. For that matter, Strength buffs also always affect Scale. So if you know which quantity is increased by buffs or slotting, then you also know which quantity (mag or dur) is reduced by resistance. They are always the same. Slotting knockback increases magnitude, so KB resistance reduces magnitude. Slotting hold increases duration (for all player powers so far) so hold resistance reduces duration.
And yes, I believe the final magnitude after protection and resistance affects the distance thrown (as anyone who has power pushed a clockwork gear into the stratosphere will attest to).
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