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You know, I was saying, "Yeah, I know, that's what I was saying, it's crazy." Then you said that, and it made sense. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Scale (magnitude) and Duration
and Scale (duration) and Magnitude Resistance always affects Scale. |
Basically, it's a backhanded way of making the resistance (and the AT modifiers and Enhancements) either effect the magnitude or duration.
I think the point I was trying to make, though, is in the case of knockback it's essentially Magnitude and Magnitude. If there is a Duration, it doesn't apply. (the duration of knockback depends on how long it takes the foe to get back on his feet)
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Well yes, but it doesn't go into any of the under the hood aspects. Nor is there an easy to find guide to game systems and their interactions.
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Hate to be nitpicky, but several people have said that about wanting KC for Melee defense, which is just wrong, and it's been driving me nuts. It does provide some Melee defense, but there are much better and less expensive ways to get it. Kinetic Combat is primarily desirable for its S/L defense bonus, not Melee defense. As a matter of fact, there's only one other set provides as much S/L def as Kinetic Combat, and that's a Accurate ToHit Debuff set. |
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Geez, Arcana, no wonder people think you're an "unofficial redname"!
Not that I don't try to sound the same. Now, my question to this point to Stormfront is that is there some reason that you MUST use the Knockback Enhancement in this set? What are you trying to accomplish? You clearly do not want the the Flight/Run/Jump speed increase for the whole set, that is minor compared to the Melee Defense bonus which is the stated goal. So what it the reason why you are unable to simply skip the Chance to Knockdown proc and not use it? |
I'd guess that the reason the OP wants to use the KD proc rather than one of the other IOs is the same reason I do when possible; it's about 1/10 the cost of the KC triple. There are only 5 enhancements in the set, and you need four for the def bonus, so your options are pretty limited.
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There have been quite a few posts over the years by the Devs and forumites in the know (Arcanaville isn't the only one, but she is probably the most involved of any non-Dev) that give insight and info about how things work. It can be rather hard to track down, thus my suggestion.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Will, everyone is really guessing what goes on under the hood, and then there's Arcanaville.
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The devs have never, to the best of my knowledge, accidentally made a knockback with a duration, so we don't know for certain what would happen if you made one. But we can guess: the devs *did* accidentally make a heal (of sorts) with a duration, and when they did the power began rapidly pulse-healing the player about every 0.125 seconds (actually, and difficult to explain fully, it was closer to 0.115 seconds with very high precision)**. So most mechanics-knowledgeable players are likely guessing that if the devs ever made a KB with duration, it would pulse-KB the target during the duration as fast as the knockback system can do so. An interesting complication is that the KB system, to the best of my knowledge, "accumulates" knockback within a certain very small window (its somewhere between 0.125 and 0.5 seconds, I believe). That's what sometimes causes two knockdowns to combine into one knockback if they land nearly simultaneously. So a KB with a duration will not land lots of KBs in a short time: it will land a set of KB effects that combine to one KB, then another burst that combine, etc.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
I think the point I was trying to make, though, is in the case of knockback it's essentially Magnitude and Magnitude. If there is a Duration, it doesn't apply. (the duration of knockback depends on how long it takes the foe to get back on his feet)
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** This was the bugged Indominable Will in Issue 12, which instead of granting psionic resistance was granting essentially a psionicly-typed heal. The net result was that Iwill began rapidly healing the player with 10% heals about 9 times a second - about seven times faster than the strongest toggle-IH regen scrapper that ever lived.
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I really hate how things can go crazy for really no reason, just because some people have to be ugly.
As I said before, when I made my original posting in suggestions I essentially said:
I have powers in some of my ATs, say Axe for my Tank, clearly says the effect of using it states it knocks-up. When I go fight mobs, I use that one power, and the foe is knocked clearly across the room. Annoying to me, to be frank and a departure to what the power description says that power is supposed to do.
So foolish me for asking if there was a way to avoid the conversion from Knock-up to Knock-back
That is all I asked for, as I confessed before, I was not familiar with the mechanics of the game.
So while mostly insulted and flamed, slowly the mechanics on how IOs and SOs actually work over the powers with Knock effect are actually impacted. Yet no effort was made to look for ways to accomodate my very simple request, or really explain why such a request was so earth shattering if attempted to accomodate.
After learning the basic mechanics, I really could not think of a way within those mechanics to accomodate my desire for powers to retain their original definitions, and the use of a Knock IO or SO would result in a greater chance of a Knock effect to occur, and not automatically translate into a Knock-back effect instead.
So I thought, since I really don't master the subject sufficiently well to make an intelligent suggestion, perhaps going thru Player Questions, I could find someone who would understand what I really wanted to accomplish, and may be able to tell me how it could be accomplished.
So once more, foolish me, I came to this thread seeking for someone who may actually have an idea on how to accomodate my desire, or at worst explain why trying to satisfy it was really more trouble than it was worth.
A potential solution as some has referred, is to simply do not slot any IO sets with KB recipies. Others have correctly said, one has a choice if one wants that extra defense then the knock-back comes with the territory or if you don't want the knock-back then accept the lesser defense. The question I would ask, is this choice really needed, it is now, but can the system be changed, so the question would not be needed to be made?
Before this thread, I did not know how difficult it would be to allow KOs for knock-ups to simply be an increase of MAG alike Mes powers. Now given Arcanaville's explanation, so the per force trade-off can't be avoided.
It is sad that the mechanics which were established well before IOs can not be changed with ease, to allow for different Knock mechanics (up/down - back).
A fortunate situation is that not many 6 slot recipies saddles us with KO recipies, so the impact of them can be mitigated to an extent.
This is as best as I can my explanation of why I started in suggestions and then why I came here.
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Swoop is the only Battel Axe power with knock-up.|
Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
I have powers in some of my ATs, say Axe for my Tank, clearly says the effect of using it states it knocks-up. When I go fight mobs, I use that one power, and the foe is knocked clearly across the room. Annoying to me, to be frank and a departure to what the power description says that power is supposed to do. |
All of the others are knock down (ie 0.67 knock back) and state that.
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Are you sure the accumulation is that short? I ask because I solo a lot with an AR/fire blaster, which has lots of knockback. Many times it seems like the first KB attack doesn't knock down the mob, but the second one almost always does, and a third is pretty much a sure thing. Just the way it happens certainly seems to my eyes as though I'm building up a KB level on the mob. Is this just a perception issue?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
... An interesting complication is that the KB system, to the best of my knowledge, "accumulates" knockback within a certain very small window (its somewhere between 0.125 and 0.5 seconds, I believe). That's what sometimes causes two knockdowns to combine into one knockback if they land nearly simultaneously. So a KB with a duration will not land lots of KBs in a short time: it will land a set of KB effects that combine to one KB, then another burst that combine, etc.
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Oops. Typo. That was supposed to be Well. |
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
And my name is not Will.
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Shirley, this isn't the first time someone got your name wrong |
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
And my name is not Will.
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Knock Up is a totally different story. It doesn't matter how much knockback you slot it with, because it always knocks UP, and thus the foe always falls down right at your feet. Although you may still have to pause in your attacks when the foe rises out of your melee range. |
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Swoop is the only Battel Axe power with knock-up.
All of the others are knock down (ie 0.67 knock back) and state that. |
Swoop is stated to have Knock Up. It also states in its long help "can send your target flying upwards". All other powers say that they are Knockback, that they "knock down the target" "knock back the target" or "knock foes to the ground". (or similar variations) The Set description says the attacks "send the target flying." (Not necessarily upwards)
You might also be interested to know other attacks that provide Knock Up. Jump Kick is the most readily available to all ATs, it is in the Power Pool. Air Superiority is a special case, it causes a back flip effect on the foe, which counts as a 0.75 Knock Up. It may have been Knockdown in the past, but it cannot be slotted, however, thus it could never become Knockback. KO Blow is Knock Up, in Super Strength, as is Jawbreaker, in War Mace. So is Broadsword's Disembowel and Katana's Soaring Dragon. The Lift and Levitate powers in Mind and Gravity Control are also both Knock Up. That's all I can find right now, there may be more.
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I believe so. As far as I know, there is no "minimum threshold" for knockback; anything above zero will at least knock you down. So if you hit the target, there are only two possibilities: you induced KB and the target is knocked, or you didn't and the target isn't. There's no way to "build up" knockback until the target falls over in that respect. So the window during which knockback can build up on a target has to be comparable to the maximum delay between hitting a target and visually seeing a knock effect, which is very short: about half a second. However, it probably can't be too much less than 0.125 seconds, because as far as I know there's only two server clocks running less than every 0.5 seconds, and that's the 0.125 combat clock and the 0.033 animation clock. I don't think knock accumulates in only 1/30th of a second, so I'm guessing knockback accumulates as some small multiple of the combat clock, either 0.125s or a small multiple of 0.125s.|
Originally Posted by Tyrrano
Are you sure the accumulation is that short? I ask because I solo a lot with an AR/fire blaster, which has lots of knockback. Many times it seems like the first KB attack doesn't knock down the mob, but the second one almost always does, and a third is pretty much a sure thing. Just the way it happens certainly seems to my eyes as though I'm building up a KB level on the mob. Is this just a perception issue?
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That's mostly informed speculation: I don't actually have direct knowledge of the knock interval and no one has ever told me what it is. And its non-trivial to engineer a test for (although this is probably where Stargazer says she tested this back in 2007).
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Psionic Tornado is also Knock Up.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
KO Blow is Knock Up, in Super Strength, as is Jawbreaker, in War Mace. So is Broadsword's Disembowel and Katana's Soaring Dragon. The Lift and Levitate powers in Mind and Gravity Control are also both Knock Up. That's all I can find right now, there may be more.
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Stone Spears|
Originally Posted by Draggynn
Psionic Tornado is also Knock Up.
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Also, my experience is that knockup doesn't literally throw the target straight up into the air. The target seems to go up at a random slight angle. I've knocked up targets to my right and had them land to my left, so I know they are not going perfectly up and down. They usually land very close to where they started off, but not in precisely the same spot.
I have always thought that explosive blast (energy blast) should do high order knockup.
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I find that when it's real minor like stone spears or Psi tornado, the KU doesn't send them high enough to make that angle matter.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Stone Spears
Also, my experience is that knockup doesn't literally throw the target straight up into the air. The target seems to go up at a random slight angle. I've knocked up targets to my right and had them land to my left, so I know they are not going perfectly up and down. They usually land very close to where they started off, but not in precisely the same spot. I have always thought that explosive blast (energy blast) should do high order knockup. |
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Soaring Dragon always seems to land them behind me. o.O
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The target seems to go up at a random slight angle. ... They usually land very close to where they started off, but not in precisely the same spot.
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For example, out of cast time, animation time, and arcanatime, only arcanatime has an entry or any sort of direct reference.
i guess that means that Paragonwiki would be just the place to compile such a guide/reference list if i feel motivation enough to start doing so.
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