in i12, apocs were not resisted.
i remember hitting 225 point apoc hits on debuffed targets on my fire/cold :-)
oh god. i miss that so much. 800 pt scourges on HL and sleeted targets when achilles heel's went off were so much fun.
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going back to before Purples PvP Ios, I could Cap HP on a controller with accolades. I guess what I am getting at is, if capped HP is all that matters and its gettable without PvP IOs/Purples, why the big deal?|
Originally Posted by LuxunS
It's difficult to make such generalizations, as it varies per archetype.
A blaster for example after accolades will be at 1446/1606 HP. Needing only 160hp from sets allows them to spread around set bonuses and focus on other things like acc, dam, rech, etc. Opposite that, take a Fortunata. After accolades a fort sits at 1285 HP, although they have a higher cap then blasters, they have to invest more to even reach what blasters can do easily. Additionally Forts have the lowest damage output (with the exception of Masterminds) so dam slotting is necessary. Also, defenses even at the pve soft-cap are useless in pvp, an extra 8-10% from slotting/power selection is necessary. The system may not reward skill or speed, but build investment, IOs, and min/maxing in some cases are worthwhile. But I'm bad too... |
Personally Im sick of the supply being low on the market and people purposely bidding to keep the supply low. I'd love for the drop rates of everything to be increased, that way it completely blows up the market mini game the way PvP was blown up by i13.
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Not my point. |
Originally Posted by black_barrier
who cares.
i'd rather just increase the drop rate to stupid levels, crash the pvp io's market and trivialize game content a bit more. because you know, having 5% more recharge and +3% more defense on a pve toon is game breaking. hell no. |
Yes I agree that the drop rate should be increased as these wouldn't really impact PvE much at all if they fell from the sky like rain. Not that I'd care if it did.
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
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let me rant in peace, *****.|
Originally Posted by Slax
Not my point.
Yes I agree that the drop rate should be increased as these wouldn't really impact PvE much at all if they fell from the sky like rain. Not that I'd care if it did. |
my point is, they should have never have even impacted PVE; at all.
a correction in the drop rates should not be concerned with PVE; at all.
If they didn't affect PVE then the supply/demand would both decrease. This would drive prices up. It's the fact that PVE people (95% of the game's population) want them that is inspiring all of the farming. If demand was lowered than people would be less inclined to farm PVPIOs.
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What I was trying to get at was capped HP is not all that matters. +Def is important for def toons because they need to be well over the soft-cap for it to be effective. +Acc is important for going up against Def toons or to-hit debuffs. +Recharge is important for longer recharge debuffs and attacks like therms/colds and spirit shark jaws etc. KB prot and Perception are important for any one who doesn't get it built in. +Damage is useful for nearly everyone. |
Originally Posted by EmpireForgotten
going back to before Purples PvP Ios, I could Cap HP on a controller with accolades. I guess what I am getting at is, if capped HP is all that matters and its gettable without PvP IOs/Purples, why the big deal?
Personally Im sick of the supply being low on the market and people purposely bidding to keep the supply low. I'd love for the drop rates of everything to be increased, that way it completely blows up the market mini game the way PvP was blown up by i13. |
Capped HP is very high on the priority list, it isn't the only stat that matters in pvp. The pvp system does not treat everyone equally, some toons need little investment to be functional while others need a significant investment to be even somewhat competitive.
That being said, i'm not arguing against your point. I wouldn't complain about drop rates being increased, or alternate ways for attaining IOs. Be it from merits or completion of difficult tasks, badges, w/e. Several months of casual play to complete a toon does begin to feel like a job as someone else mentioned.
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I don't see why a PVEr would spend hours farming for PVP IOs unless they had like 6 accounts. Not to say that no one does, but I doubt enough of them to make any real difference. It seems the problem lyes in those dudes buying them from the market though. Not even sure if pvers affect the market at all. At the end of the day this is all speculation as we don't have any way of knowing what percentage of pvers even care about PVP IOs. I'd personally just like to see a raw increase to the drops period.
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Originally Posted by Xanatos
If they didn't affect PVE then the supply/demand would both decrease. This would drive prices up. It's the fact that PVE people (95% of the game's population) want them that is inspiring all of the farming. If demand was lowered than people would be less inclined to farm PVPIOs.
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It's not speculation. After the thread entitled "Are Prices Rising?" gave details on how to farm PVPIOs...the prices of all PVPIOs started to drop (and are continuing to drop as from 5th) This shows that AFK farming is the primary source of PVPIOs on the market. (Or that they contribute enough to impact the supply & price on the market.)|
Originally Posted by AresSupreme
I don't see why a PVEr would spend hours farming for PVP IOs unless they had like 6 accounts. Not to say that no one does, but I doubt enough of them to make any real difference. It seems the problem lyes in those dudes buying them from the market though. Not even sure if pvers affect the market at all. At the end of the day this is all speculation as we don't have any way of knowing what percentage of pvers even care about PVP IOs. I'd personally just like to see a raw increase to the drops period.
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As 95% of the game's population is PVE. I can summarise that 95% of the AFK farmers should also be PVE.
Remove PVE affects from PVPIOs and these PVE farmers will stop. This will cut supply drastically and drive up costs.
In other words...Mac's idea is counter-intuitive. I personally believe that PVPIOS are fine the way they are. However, if you're looking for a "solution" I think the focus should be on changing drop rates...not on the FUNCTION of the PVPIOs themselves.
I'd support an increase in drops.
In general the problem is not that pvpers and pvers are competing for the pvp IOs. The IOs that are valuable to the two player groups are not the same.
Looking at red side prices, the Glad Jav procs are nearly as expensive as the +3% defense IO. PvPers generally don't care for the +def, nearly all the competitive pvpers don't play defense based toons, on non-defense based toons there is absolutely no reason to get that IO. Squishies don't benefit much from defense thanks to DR and melees wouldn't need 3% defense on a resist based toon (in pvp at least). On the other side the Glad Jav proc is pretty much useless for pve toons. The set bonuses are attainable from other, cheaper sets.
Most of the IOs and sets can be classified as either pve or pvp useful. The problem lies in the supply, not the demand.
The idea that you are competing for PVP drops is inherently flawed.
I am yet to see a conscious shift in targeting because of PVP drops. You never see a team go "oh let's target that tank because all the squishies, even though they are blasting our squishies, have no rep or drops to claim".
The drops system is pretty stupid at this point. The Rep system is the culprit. It comes down to this: do you want a system that rewards intelligent pvp play as perceived by the players (keep the mf blaster down before he wrecks your therm) or the carebear ideal-world mentality of the devs where you cycle through targets in order to get higher drop chances, while you sacrificing good, intelligent pvp.
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For some reason this post reminds me of the anti-gank code.
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Originally Posted by black_barrier
The drops system is pretty stupid at this point. The Rep system is the culprit. It comes down to this: do you want a system that rewards intelligent pvp play as perceived by the players (keep the mf blaster down before he wrecks your therm) or the carebear ideal-world mentality of the devs where you cycle through targets in order to get higher drop chances, while you sacrificing good, intelligent pvp.
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ding ding.|
Originally Posted by LuxunS
For some reason this post reminds me of the anti-gank code.
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in this imaginary world of carebear pvp-ing, farm targets get magically get better when you stop targeting them... but then again, i guess it's ok for zone pvp, where you get targeted and die just because popping 2 greens slowed you to a crawl and let the 20 scrapper squad catch up to you.
brb, putting my rage dents on my desk.
The thread was 'Are Prices Dropping', and to conclude the thread actually established anything remotely near to the statements attributed to it is borderline asinine.
A thread that establishes such statements requires concrete evidence, tests, and figures. That thread was a very sparse collection of observations with biased individuals waving magic wands in an attempt to "convince" someone that these things are true.
They may or may not be true statements, but that is yet to be established in that, or any thread on this board.
If statements such as "all PVPIO prices started to drop" were indeed true then threads such as this one which complain of low or no supply and capped market prices would not need to exist. Then again, if people treated the entire collection of PVPIOs as a source rather than making generalist statements about a very sparse subset threads like this also would not need to exist. The truth is many people are deliberately twisting ideas to fit their own needs, and are being facilitated by those that believe statements do not need to be challenged. People just pass one possibly erroneous statement after another, and people buy into it without the need or desire to question it.
Thankfully, the devs at least try to avoid the magic wand solutions the players would have them enact. The ramifications of some of the short sided, greed inspired suggestions in this and other threads is simply mind boggling.
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it's ok guys, a real pvper has spoken.
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Originally Posted by brophog02
The thread was 'Are Prices Dropping', and to conclude the thread actually established anything remotely near to the statements attributed to it is borderline asinine.
A thread that establishes such statements requires concrete evidence, tests, and figures. That thread was a very sparse collection of observations with biased individuals waving magic wands in an attempt to "convince" someone that these things are true. They may or may not be true statements, but that is yet to be established in that, or any thread on this board. If statements such as "all PVPIO prices started to drop" were indeed true then threads such as this one which complain of low or no supply and capped market prices would not need to exist. Then again, if people treated the entire collection of PVPIOs as a source rather than making generalist statements about a very sparse subset threads like this also would not need to exist. The truth is many people are deliberately twisting ideas to fit their own needs, and are being facilitated by those that believe statements do not need to be challenged. People just pass one possibly erroneous statement after another, and people buy into it without the need or desire to question it. Thankfully, the devs at least try to avoid the magic wand solutions the players would have them enact. The ramifications of some of the short sided, greed inspired suggestions in this and other threads is simply mind boggling. |
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Absolutely correct.|
Originally Posted by black_barrier
The idea that you are competing for PVP drops is inherently flawed.
I am yet to see a conscious shift in targeting because of PVP drops. You never see a team go "oh let's target that tank because all the squishies, even though they are blasting our squishies, have no rep or drops to claim". The drops system is pretty stupid at this point. The Rep system is the culprit. It comes down to this: do you want a system that rewards intelligent pvp play as perceived by the players (keep the mf blaster down before he wrecks your therm) or the carebear ideal-world mentality of the devs where you cycle through targets in order to get higher drop chances, while you sacrificing good, intelligent pvp. |
People who actually like (using the work 'like' for lack of a better word) PvPing aren't doing it for the drops, they are doing it to win. Im not going to kill the tank just because he hasn't died yet and I "might" get a drop from him. Im going to continue beating on the people I know I can kill.
Rep system needs to go - I think the suggestion of the sirens bounty system would work very well to award PvP IOs.
I always thought Purples were supposed to be the uber rare end game IOs. PvP IOs were supposed to be normal IOs outside of PvE. The supply of Normal IOs is high because they are easier to get in PvE. Therefore PvP Ios should be easier to get in PvP
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Originally Posted by brophog02
The thread was 'Are Prices Dropping', and to conclude the thread actually established anything remotely near to the statements attributed to it is borderline asinine.
A thread that establishes such statements requires concrete evidence, tests, and figures. That thread was a very sparse collection of observations with biased individuals waving magic wands in an attempt to "convince" someone that these things are true. They may or may not be true statements, but that is yet to be established in that, or any thread on this board. If statements such as "all PVPIO prices started to drop" were indeed true then threads such as this one which complain of low or no supply and capped market prices would not need to exist. Then again, if people treated the entire collection of PVPIOs as a source rather than making generalist statements about a very sparse subset threads like this also would not need to exist. The truth is many people are deliberately twisting ideas to fit their own needs, and are being facilitated by those that believe statements do not need to be challenged. People just pass one possibly erroneous statement after another, and people buy into it without the need or desire to question it. Thankfully, the devs at least try to avoid the magic wand solutions the players would have them enact. The ramifications of some of the short sided, greed inspired suggestions in this and other threads is simply mind boggling. |
Then, what would you suggest happen? Nothing? Its working as intended.
I just have a couple questions I'd like you to answer if you would. I personally haven't played this game much since i14 started so most of what I remember is a year old and doesn't seem to work anymore.
Why does regular salvage cost more on the market now than it did a year ago? The Supply is about the same (1000 bids, 700 available), but the cost is about 5000 time that of a year ago for some Salvage?
Why does blueside market now remind me of redside market 1 year ago? Why does redside market now remind me of a third world country?
My point is this: This is a game - and its not EVE. This isn't a spreadsheet game where you need to spend more time out of game managing your spreadsheets than you do ingame game playing. This isn't a game where you should need to spend more time in that freakin market place than you do actually doing something.
I'm to the point where I wish someone would find a way to dupe and ruin the market.
At the end of the day - I already have my toons ill PvP with. I won't level another one because the cost of IOing them out isn't worth it to me.
People can defend the market mini game all they want, but I can guarantee you that it'll change eventually. There are more people upset with the market than enjoy playing it and its been proven that the majority will have their changes catered too.
*Substitute the word "PvP" in for the word "Market" in the last paragraph
Part of me doesn't want to reply to brophog02 as that would imply that we are somehow peers. Or at the very least he has said something of worth that requires rebuttal. I suppose i'm just humouring him. 
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I highlighted the part that is a problem. You have something called experimenter bias.|
Originally Posted by brophog02
A thread that establishes such statements requires concrete evidence, tests, and figures. That thread was a very sparse collection of observations with biased individuals waving magic wands in an attempt to "convince" someone that these things are true.
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My claim is backed up by the dropping prices of the majority of PVPIOS and the rising supply of PVPIOs since January 5th. Those are both facts. Taking into account anomalies such as the aforementioned procs. (One of which, the glad jav proc, was clearly the reason for this thread being made.)
Disagree with me? Go look on the market.
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Originally Posted by brophog02
If statements such as "all PVPIO prices started to drop" were indeed true then threads such as this one which complain of low or no supply and capped market prices would not need to exist.
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Originally Posted by EmpireForgotten
I always thought Purples were supposed to be the uber rare end game IOs. PvP IOs were supposed to be normal IOs outside of PvE. The supply of Normal IOs is high because they are easier to get in PvE. Therefore PvP Ios should be easier to get in PvP
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@EmpireForgotten I wouldn't worry too much. The market isn't going to change. But Positron's end game content for GR is likely going to contain massive influence sinks that should help combat the massive inflation of Influence/Infamy since I14.
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I disagree. Its been proven that what the individual community wants will always be pushed back for the benefit of the majority and "Vision"|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
@EmpireForgotten I wouldn't worry too much. The market isn't going to change. But Positron's end game content for GR is likely going to contain massive influence sinks that should help combat the massive inflation of Influence/Infamy since I14.
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Look at the past history
i5 and i6 - Overall resist/defense nerfs and ED - several people ragequit, but most stayed and played it out
i9 - inventions - there was A LOT of drama about adding loot to this game, some ragequit, but most stayed and played it out
i12 - Acro nerf and psi blasters - lot of angst from PvPers, but almost all stayed and played it out
i13 - Big PvP nerf. Most quit, but several are back because we are complacent with whats in place and hope for change = Dev's win
We have proven track records that the devs are capable of making drastic decisions that alienate a whole segment of the community. Most of these changes are brought upon by the majority not liking something or not participating in something and they don't want to see various areas of programming go unused.
Example - before i5i6 there was a lot of discussion about how firetanks and herding were the only way to play and people were tired of it. inventions were added because there wasn't enough to do at the end game and influence was pointless. acro was nerfed because people wanted their KB attacks to mean something in PvP. i13 was specifically not meant for the pvp community, but for people that didn't PvP.
So, I think we will see changes eventually. I also disagree with your previous post that says PvP IOs are supposed to be as rare as purples. The drop rate of PvP IOs is like 1 and 200, the drop rate for purples is a lot higher. Considering I only PvP when I play this game and that I have never gotten a PvP drop, I think the drop rate is a little broken. Increasing the supply of PvP IOs does not make them less useful for the people who actually use them - it makes them less useful for the people who exploit the market
Actually, castle told us that the acro nerf was because of PVE concerns...
where the f is the reversal now that pve and pvp powers are separate?
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This is a cogent and well thought out argument. GTFO.
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Originally Posted by EmpireForgotten
Absolutely correct.
People who actually like (using the work 'like' for lack of a better word) PvPing aren't doing it for the drops, they are doing it to win. Im not going to kill the tank just because he hasn't died yet and I "might" get a drop from him. Im going to continue beating on the people I know I can kill. Rep system needs to go - I think the suggestion of the sirens bounty system would work very well to award PvP IOs. I always thought Purples were supposed to be the uber rare end game IOs. PvP IOs were supposed to be normal IOs outside of PvE. The supply of Normal IOs is high because they are easier to get in PvE. Therefore PvP Ios should be easier to get in PvP |
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
i still have a number of blueside pvp IOs available for sale. just saying.
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20 inf PST for location/pickuptime
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Originally Posted by RoboBug
i still have a number of blueside pvp IOs available for sale. just saying.
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I'd like to take this opportunity to remind folks that this system is purposefully difficult to farm. Your BEST chance of getting a PVP IO drop is to have 10+ players fighting one another; either in zones or in arenas.|
Originally Posted by DocDominion
Agreed, the drop rate on the PvP IO's are so low it's practically a joke. Nobody farms (effectively) for them anyway, you have to be stacked to be able to afford even one set and indeed they go for billions at WW's. I personally have farmed for weeks just taking turns with a villain friend killing each other over and over with no luck. NCSoft needs to incorporate some kind of system like you mentioned, to put it bluntly "the merit system but less sucky" LOL
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The only way I'd be comfortable increasing the drop rates is if we could make then Bind on Pickup, tech which we don't currently have.
Check out this chart.
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Table_of_Special_IOs
It doesn't mark purps which is why i'm confused.