World pvp (at least read the start)
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-02-15 18:39 in Suggestions and Ideas
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In a way, yes. They went through what was essentially 4 issues of PvE oriented changes and balancing before PvP was brought in. Had it been there from the start, it's not hard to imagine how things would have been different. ED and GDN might have been an issue 2 system instead of 5/6.
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Originally Posted by LISAR
When they back burnered PvP they must have turned the heat off. Co-Op System Shock 2 felt more natural.
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"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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Actually LISAR - for the strict vegetarian, putting beef on top of the rice *DOES* ruin in and make it absolutely unplalatable and inedible.|
Originally Posted by LISAR
Putting beef on rice doesn't ruin the rice it just makes it unappealing to vegetarians.
If PvP ruined EQ wouldn't have remained a viable property for almost 11 years. Clearly from a realistic stand point you are delusional. Have a nice day. XOXO |
So, for P_P, adding PvP to her CoH makes it unpalatable. Her choice and her opinion, which she is tating pretty clearly as "her opinion".
Whether PvP works well or not in other games really has no bearing on her opinion of PvP in this game.
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Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
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Of course, even then, I don't think just the *hero* ATs would have been balanced by the time COV came out with its own ATs. Even with ED in place early, I think we'd have been chasing "balance" all over the place. |
Originally Posted by Reiraku
In a way, yes. They went through what was essentially 4 issues of PvE oriented changes and balancing before PvP was brought in. Had it been there from the start, it's not hard to imagine how things would have been different. ED and GDN might have been an issue 2 system instead of 5/6.
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As much as I like it, I'm thinking "balance" in any form needs to be mostly ignored in this game, with a simple "Team for PVP" declaration. Aion, for instance, is simple - both sides have the same 8 classes to choose from, with mostly the same powers - and it STILL gets tweaked. We have 12 ATs which internally can vary wildly in effectiveness, strengths and weaknesses - and even having the same powerset on a different AT can lead to somewhat different results.
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That's something I can easily agree with. In a way, that's how it was with i12 PvP. Your characters had their individual roles and excelled at them. Problem is, a lot of people want their non-blasters to hit as hard (or as close as possible) as a blaster without giving up their better qualities to compensate. If one character's individual capability didn't measure up to everyone else's capability in every way, then that character wasn't "good enough." The idea of getting a team to round out everyone's qualities just seemed to disappear in PvP, which is odd since it's so prevalent in PvE.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
As much as I like it, I'm thinking "balance" in any form needs to be mostly ignored in this game, with a simple "Team for PVP" declaration. Aion, for instance, is simple - both sides have the same 8 classes to choose from, with mostly the same powers - and it STILL gets tweaked. We have 12 ATs which internally can vary wildly in effectiveness, strengths and weaknesses - and even having the same powerset on a different AT can lead to somewhat different results. |
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
There is one thing I would like to bring up in all of this, but I think it's important to preface the query with a few details about myself.
I've been around since this silly game was in beta (I got it with my Medal of Honour boxed set ^_^). I've been there, done that, and still keep doing it. Would I like more content? Sure. Do I even bother to compare CoH/V to other MMOs on the market? Nah...apples and oranges. I play this game as an RP'er now - almost exclusively.
That said, I'd actually -like- to be able to duel fellow RPers when it's appropriate, without being removed to the confines of a (contextually) nonsensical arena map. More importantly, I'd like the duels to be witnessed by others involved in the RP without resorting to the above mentioned, and turning those fellow RPers into...odd little camera ships.
Now, with respect to WPvP griefing. I hear that. After a brief stint in WoW and Aion, I could do without the asshattery and compulsive typing of "QQ!" in every chat channel available.
But respectfully, guys, c'mon. Is there -any- of that which can't be done now? I've been spammed with "arena invites" by people who want to duel me. They -can-, presently, follow me and flatten my mobs. They can (if they're clever), train a mob on me now.
What's the difference I'm not seeing here? Whether its a direct, boolean, PvP flag, or a persisten "invite to the arena"...it's the same mechanic. The only material difference is -where- the fight takes place. Personally, I'd love to be able to conduct a few RP duels at the base of Atlas.
*shrug*
The /Duel ability seemed a perfectly reasonable request to me until they made powers work differently in PvP zones. Of course if you just ignored PvP power rules for duels in nonPvP zones I don't think anyone dueling would care.
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No, no absolutely NOT. The arena implementation is preferable precisely because it doesn't allow for this. I don't want to have to wait while people on my team fight each other in public. I don't want Atlas Park to be an even BIGGER lag fest because morons are using high particle effects in high traffic areas. If you want to PvP, take it outside (to the arena).|
Originally Posted by Cade Lawson
That said, I'd actually -like- to be able to duel fellow RPers when it's appropriate, without being removed to the confines of a (contextually) nonsensical arena map. More importantly, I'd like the duels to be witnessed by others involved in the RP without resorting to the above mentioned, and turning those fellow RPers into...odd little camera ships.
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| Now, with respect to WPvP griefing. I hear that. After a brief stint in WoW and Aion, I could do without the asshattery and compulsive typing of "QQ!" in every chat channel available. |
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| But respectfully, guys, c'mon. Is there -any- of that which can't be done now? I've been spammed with "arena invites" by people who want to duel me. They -can-, presently, follow me and flatten my mobs. They can (if they're clever), train a mob on me now. |
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| What's the difference I'm not seeing here? Whether its a direct, boolean, PvP flag, or a persisten "invite to the arena"...it's the same mechanic. The only material difference is -where- the fight takes place. |
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| Personally, I'd love to be able to conduct a few RP duels at the base of Atlas. |
Feel free to try out my AE mission arc, # 473452: Praetorian Redemption
@Valerika
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I concur. Polite responses are a waste of time.
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Originally Posted by Solicio
No, no absolutely NOT. The arena implementation is preferable precisely because it doesn't allow for this. I don't want to have to wait while people on my team fight each other in public. I don't want Atlas Park to be an even BIGGER lag fest because morons are using high particle effects in high traffic areas. If you want to PvP, take it outside (to the arena).
In other words, you posted this crap even though you knew better. Bravo. So, yes, by all means, let's make their griefing/PvP goading efforts even MORE accessible and rewarding. Let's give them the gradification of having everyone near them watch them fight other players in public! Power to the griefers! ...And that is what makes all the difference. Keeping the duels in the arena keeps PvP separate from PvE. That's not a slight oversight--it's deliberate design, and those of us who don't want to PvP appreciate it. Remember what I said about how people would implement this in the highest traffic areas, maximizing the annoyance and lag involved? I rest my case. |
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I'm sorry, Cade Lawson, but if you want polite responses, don't request /duel. It's a very touchy subject, and very unpopular among non-PvP'ers. You even mentioned some of the reasons for its unpopularity in your own post. It has the potential to be used as a griefing tool, and provides little in return other than "look at me, I'm PvPing in a PvE zone!".
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Originally Posted by Cade Lawson
I concur. Polite responses are a waste of time.
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Feel free to try out my AE mission arc, # 473452: Praetorian Redemption
@Valerika
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Out of those 3 games, WoW is the only one that seems to have a real PvP community.|
Originally Posted by LISAR
Seeing as how UO, Everquest, and WoW have all had PvP you are clearly using your own tastes as blinders to reality.
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UO's game world was separated into 2 alternate worlds where one is only PvE and the other is world PvP. The WPvP variant is dead just like our PvP zones here.
Everquest has never been a big PvP MMO and is probably more dead than CoX is when it comes to PvP (unless things have changed since I stopped playing it ~7 years ago).
Just because other games have offered up PvP doesn't mean it was successful or even accepted by the player base.
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Ok, I'll bite;
What the heck does 'QQ' mean?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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QQ is intended to be the face for tears, I believe. In general, these days, it's apparently used when mocking someone who is complaining about/disagrees with someone, no matter syntax.
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Okay, I read your post, but I'm not going to read the rest of the thread, so this is probably duplicatory.
NO.
One of the reasons I play this game is because I can avoid PvP. You open up the regular zones to PvP of any form at all, and I'm gone. Forever. The only way it wouldn't drive me out is if you restricted it so much that there'd be no point to it.
I do not want to have to deal with some pimple-faced weenie who thinks it's fun to camp the train station looking for characters weak enough that he can gank them.
I do not want to have to deal with constant barrages of duel challenges, or ignoring player after player who keeps sending me tells telling (not asking, DEMANDING) that I turn on my PvP flag so they can fight me.
I do not want to see the whining and moaning in the forums about how no-one will fight them in the new, world-wide PvP.
This is not a PVP game. If you think having World PvP will get you more opponents, you're wrong. The people who want to PvP already do so. Those who don't, don't want to. You make it harder for them to avoid, and all you'll do is drive many of them away.
DO. NOT. WANT.
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Originally Posted by Tripp Hazzard
Okay, I read your post, but I'm not going to read the rest of the thread, so this is probably duplicatory.
NO. One of the reasons I play this game is because I can avoid PvP. You open up the regular zones to PvP of any form at all, and I'm gone. Forever. The only way it wouldn't drive me out is if you restricted it so much that there'd be no point to it. I do not want to have to deal with some pimple-faced weenie who thinks it's fun to camp the train station looking for characters weak enough that he can gank them. I do not want to have to deal with constant barrages of duel challenges, or ignoring player after player who keeps sending me tells telling (not asking, DEMANDING) that I turn on my PvP flag so they can fight me. I do not want to see the whining and moaning in the forums about how no-one will fight them in the new, world-wide PvP. This is not a PVP game. If you think having World PvP will get you more opponents, you're wrong. The people who want to PvP already do so. Those who don't, don't want to. You make it harder for them to avoid, and all you'll do is drive many of them away. DO. NOT. WANT. |
I get that PvP isn't really wanted here... but those with this view confuse me... what experiences have you had that make you think it would be THAT bad? I played WoW and Aion and never once had any of the experiences described when people whine about getting ganked or griefing. I'm sure it happens but I think it's being over exaggerated here.
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I'm very glad you didn't have those experiences, because I wouldn't wish them on anyone. However, I have, especially on WoW. It left a very bad taste in my mouth, and I didn't want to play MMOs at all for a good long while after that. It's not being exaggerated here--you've just been fortunate enough not to have seen just how bad people can behave given enough griefing tools. But don't assume that just because you personally haven't experienced it, it isn't that bad--that's like telling someone that their migrane "is just a little headache, so stop pretending it hurts" because you've never had one.
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Originally Posted by Radubadu
I get that PvP isn't really wanted here... but those with this view confuse me... what experiences have you had that make you think it would be THAT bad. I played WoW and Aion and never once had any of the experiences described when people whine about getting ganked or griefing. I'm sure it happens but I think it's being over exaggerated here.
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Feel free to try out my AE mission arc, # 473452: Praetorian Redemption
@Valerika
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Ever been on Xbox Live? Ever had to deal with those horrible little kids who think they are the bees knees, the mutts nuts and the king of the coop? And will brag endlessly about it?|
Originally Posted by Radubadu
I get that PvP isn't really wanted here... but those with this view confuse me... what experiences have you had that make you think it would be THAT bad? I played WoW and Aion and never once had any of the experiences described when people whine about getting ganked or griefing. I'm sure it happens but I think it's being over exaggerated here.
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All the worst bits of that, and then some. And then add that into City Of. The reason this game has such a great community is because it DIDNT have that sorta thing at the start. It was very much a team based game, and still is. It doesnt stop you from soloing, but then again your still on the 'same side' as the rest of the people. Theres no competition, not openly anyway, except for things like Mo runs and strong builds and stuff.
PvP tends to bring out the worst side in people for two reasons; competition and adrenaline. I tend to get incredibly worked up in PvP, and I know others who are the same. Its the nature of the beast. Introduce that in a more widespread manner, and its goodbye world peace and helloooo anarchy.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Do you really want me to list to you all of my terrible exp in PvP? |
Originally Posted by Radubadu
I get that PvP isn't really wanted here... but those with this view confuse me... what experiences have you had that make you think it would be THAT bad? I played WoW and Aion and never once had any of the experiences described when people whine about getting ganked or griefing. I'm sure it happens but I think it's being over exaggerated here.
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I mean, Do you have like 9 hours to just sit and read it all... or are you just asking because you actually think people dont have HORROR stories to tell?
I've always liked the idea of PvP the way it was on the WoW server I ended up playing on- off by default, but flaggable by various actions (or you could just set the flag yourself).
eliminated the annoyances of global PvP, but it was there if you wanted it. I liked the system and wouldn't mind seeing it here.
Although I realize that it would make the heads of a sizable vocal minority explode even though they would never, ever have to PvP unless they wanted to.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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And I couldn't stand it--one of the main draws this game had for me early on was that it DIDN'T have a system like that.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I've always liked the idea of PvP the way it was on the WoW server I ended up playing on- off by default, but flaggable by various actions (or you could just set the flag yourself).
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| eliminated the annoyances of global PvP, but it was there if you wanted it. |
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| Although I realize that it would make the heads of a sizable vocal minority explode even though they would never, ever have to PvP unless they wanted to. |
Feel free to try out my AE mission arc, # 473452: Praetorian Redemption
@Valerika
I'd love to see NCSOFT take a poll of this game to find out those that want open world pvp and those that don't.
The LOL at how low the for open world pvp would be, would be hilarious.
To those that think open world pvp is very popular: Open world pvp MUST be so popular since there are so many mmos that have it . . . oh wait.
As to /duel, sure. I used to be against it, but I'm for it now. Why?
To be able to ROTFL as I watch a scrapper lose his mez prot and get insta held be pve mobs in the area. TL;DR: on that last line: mixing pvp states in pve was a dead idea the day they issued issue 13 and allowed powers to work differently between pvp and pve zones, and in many instances having mobs be MORE dangerous in pvp zones than in pve ones.
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PvP rules in a PvE environment for the lulz. |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
To be able to ROTFL as I watch a scrapper lose his mez prot and get insta held be pve mobs in the area. TL;DR: on that last line: mixing pvp states in pve was a dead idea the day they issued issue 13 and allowed powers to work differently between pvp and pve zones, and in many instances having mobs be MORE dangerous in pvp zones than in pve ones.
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This brings up an excellent point: if PvP in its current state is riddled with balance issues and makes very little sense when coming from a PvE mindset, what's the likelyhood of ever being able to implement world PvP?
They have to fix PvP before they even think about such an idea. And given that PvP is below carp melee on the priority list, we aren't going to expect anything probably within our lifetime.
Sorry, OP.
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Then you don't read much of the PvP related material here in the forums. Or you have mental blinders on. Otherwise you'd know it's a problem already in the existing system.|
Originally Posted by Radubadu
I get that PvP isn't really wanted here... but those with this view confuse me... what experiences have you had that make you think it would be THAT bad? I played WoW and Aion and never once had any of the experiences described when people whine about getting ganked or griefing. I'm sure it happens but I think it's being over exaggerated here.
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This would not generate new PvPers. It would drive away non-PvPers. And it would spread the existing PvP playerbase even thinner.
What part of that is a good thing?
Eliminating "Fed Ex" PvP solicitation missions would probably be a better received way to modify PvP than some version of "World PvP."
Instead of making PvP even more intrusive than it already is, with multiple PvP solicitation missions for every alt that every player makes, make it less intrusive. Make PvP contacts show up automatically at the appropriate level, just like Midnighter contacts do. Also, give players the right to click on a button so that they can decline to insert them into their contacts list (so that players can make PvP contacts either disappear entirely or be shifted into the "inactive" tab).