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Put simply, if you want to level fast, and you want to slot fast, you have to learn to market fast. Like many parts of the game, the Invention system is designed to have something for everyone. But in doing so, it will offer everything for no one. There are things that are trivially easy to get, things that take moderate effort, and things that take a lot of effort.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
Maybe if i played 1 toon for a year that'd be possible. My 1st 50 took like 400 hours, i don't care to do that again. Too many options to try out. I like all my toons, but i don't like playing with no powers and i don't likee pre 20-30 play, so what? I make farm toons and TF toons. Each toon i make has a specific reason for making it. Like my GA tank that runs 30mph in GA or my Elec/SD soft capped with 152% rech., stuff like that. So what if i blow thru to 50 in a week? Does that mean there shouldn't be pieces for them on the market? Do i purp each toon? Yes and no but even normal recipes are getting to expensive to pay 50mil each. Unless i want to get air burst or some other crap set that the market doesn't seem to inflate the prices of. And?
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And if "normal" recipes really are selling for fifty million, then you should be able to sell some of the normal recipes you get as drops to buy the other normal recipes you need. There is a notion that high prices hurts "casual" players but that's not unilaterally true. It does hurt their ability to obtain the most expensive things in existence, but that's basically by design. But it also gives them an opportunity to earn massive amounts of influence with trivial effort, by simply selling what they get as drops.
There was a time when it was hard to outfit with *SOs* without twinking with a rich alt. Those days are gone: if you are a "casual player" at some point you're going to get a lucky drop - drop, singular - and your influence problems will be over: you'll be able to SO and possibly common IO yourself right to 50. Even without that one lucky drop its almost impossible to be unable to slot yourself very well past the teen levels if you simply sell your drops with about the same dedication we used to sell our DOs and SOs at stores.
The high prices do make it hard to get the best of the best stuff, true. The best of the best stuff is supposed to be hard to get, and without the markets you'd probably be lucky to see one much less slot one. But those same high prices make the issue of outfitting with reasonable enhancements vastly easier than it used to be pre-I9. In fact, the crap recipes you seem to be dismissing are offering casual players slotting opportunities previously reserved for the incredibly Hamied out.
The fact is that even for (perhaps especially for) the casual player the combined system of the Invention system and the Markets has dramatically improved the ability to purchase and slot standard enhancements, dramatically improved the ability to slot at power levels higher than standard enhancements allow, and dramatically increased the maximum slotting options available. The fact that it *also* adds even higher slotting options for players that want to apply more effort doesn't change the fact that without "making it a second job" you can do far more now with the current system than before it.
If your satisfaction is based on your ability to dictate the level of effort that the rarest and most powerful items in the game should take to acquire, your satisfaction will be elusive. If on the other hand all you require is proportionality and fairness; the game offers options commensurate with the level of effort you wish to put into it (proportionality), and the gap between the lowest and the highest options are not excessively high (fairness), then the game does a much better job of that.
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This is a funny thread .. are there people who try and drive up prices of coarse there is .. stop pretending there isnt.. are there lazy people who r rich n bid anything to win .. yes lol
Is there a Marketeer Archytype .. No lol
There have been a couple of games that had a decent crafting aspect to it.. one ill use as an example ..
SWG had an impressive system before the nerf's.. after i saw many people leave and those people still search for that same style of play in other games ..
Even before LOTRO went live swg people flocked there asking for crafting i was amazed lol
Not that all so called marketeers here are old swg folk .. but they obvioulsy njoy selling stuff ..
Not really my cup of tea id rather play more activly and pvp ..
My point is COX isnt and never was a crafting game with a economy that merited attention from the devs. Markeeters take this way too seriously and quite simply the fact you feel hated means you might feel guilty about something. lol
I dont feel guilty about killing someone in pvp or feel hated if im ganked 20 times in an hour lol Its a damn game chill n leave the forums lol do what u want ingame ..
In theyre attempts to please the crafting/sellers who were looking for homes or to reshape a game in ways that would please them.. the devs tried to incorporate crafting and marketing into the game
Its not really a failure or success its just more of a distraction for them. They dont really care and they prove this by adding more forms of merits and rewards into a game that is slowly becoming a grandmothers quilt of various colors lol
Hence Rogue is on the horizon
Sometimes i wonder if there will me a move there and an attempt to merge this game there and try to fix this mess there lol
Yes our economy is a mess and none of the players help games reflect real life it seems hmmm interesting hahahaha
I hate u all lmao ........... Leave the forums ! its thr forums that fuel your desires for debate wich is a nice word for arguements lol go leave play the game lol have fun !!
Bye Byeeeeeeeee 
Is anyone selling a piece of iron? ill pay 100,000,000 lol
Quote:
You get what you put into the game/market. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Put simply, if you want to level fast, and you want to slot fast, you have to learn to market fast. Like many parts of the game, the Invention system is designed to have something for everyone. But in doing so, it will offer everything for no one. There are things that are trivially easy to get, things that take moderate effort, and things that take a lot of effort.
And if "normal" recipes really are selling for fifty million, then you should be able to sell some of the normal recipes you get as drops to buy the other normal recipes you need. There is a notion that high prices hurts "casual" players but that's not unilaterally true. It does hurt their ability to obtain the most expensive things in existence, but that's basically by design. But it also gives them an opportunity to earn massive amounts of influence with trivial effort, by simply selling what they get as drops. There was a time when it was hard to outfit with *SOs* without twinking with a rich alt. Those days are gone: if you are a "casual player" at some point you're going to get a lucky drop - drop, singular - and your influence problems will be over: you'll be able to SO and possibly common IO yourself right to 50. Even without that one lucky drop its almost impossible to be unable to slot yourself very well past the teen levels if you simply sell your drops with about the same dedication we used to sell our DOs and SOs at stores. The high prices do make it hard to get the best of the best stuff, true. The best of the best stuff is supposed to be hard to get, and without the markets you'd probably be lucky to see one much less slot one. But those same high prices make the issue of outfitting with reasonable enhancements vastly easier than it used to be pre-I9. In fact, the crap recipes you seem to be dismissing are offering casual players slotting opportunities previously reserved for the incredibly Hamied out. The fact is that even for (perhaps especially for) the casual player the combined system of the Invention system and the Markets has dramatically improved the ability to purchase and slot standard enhancements, dramatically improved the ability to slot at power levels higher than standard enhancements allow, and dramatically increased the maximum slotting options available. The fact that it *also* adds even higher slotting options for players that want to apply more effort doesn't change the fact that without "making it a second job" you can do far more now with the current system than before it. If your satisfaction is based on your ability to dictate the level of effort that the rarest and most powerful items in the game should take to acquire, your satisfaction will be elusive. If on the other hand all you require is proportionality and fairness; the game offers options commensurate with the level of effort you wish to put into it (proportionality), and the gap between the lowest and the highest options are not excessively high (fairness), then the game does a much better job of that. |
The lazy gamer (those not willing to put forth the effort necessary to reach their goals) will always be dissatisfied.
*waves to Arcanaville*
For various people in this thread: Note the addition to my sig.
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Quote:
Sure, I have an iron I can sell you. Anything to keep my transactions off market. How can I contact you?
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Originally Posted by capnkangaroo
This is a funny thread .. are there people who try and drive up prices of coarse there is .. stop pretending there isnt.. are there lazy people who r rich n bid anything to win .. yes lol
Is there a Marketeer Archytype .. No lol There have been a couple of games that had a decent crafting aspect to it.. one ill use as an example .. SWG had an impressive system before the nerf's.. after i saw many people leave and those people still search for that same style of play in other games .. Even before LOTRO went live swg people flocked there asking for crafting i was amazed lol Not that all so called marketeers here are old swg folk .. but they obvioulsy njoy selling stuff .. Not really my cup of tea id rather play more activly and pvp .. My point is COX isnt and never was a crafting game with a economy that merited attention from the devs. Markeeters take this way too seriously and quite simply the fact you feel hated means you might feel guilty about something. lol I dont feel guilty about killing someone in pvp or feel hated if im ganked 20 times in an hour lol Its a damn game chill n leave the forums lol do what u want ingame .. In theyre attempts to please the crafting/sellers who were looking for homes or to reshape a game in ways that would please them.. the devs tried to incorporate crafting and marketing into the game Its not really a failure or success its just more of a distraction for them. They dont really care and they prove this by adding more forms of merits and rewards into a game that is slowly becoming a grandmothers quilt of various colors lol Hence Rogue is on the horizon Sometimes i wonder if there will me a move there and an attempt to merge this game there and try to fix this mess there lol Yes our economy is a mess and none of the players help games reflect real life it seems hmmm interesting hahahaha I hate u all lmao ........... Leave the forums ! its thr forums that fuel your desires for debate wich is a nice word for arguements lol go leave play the game lol have fun !! Bye Byeeeeeeeee Is anyone selling a piece of iron? ill pay 100,000,000 lol |
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LOL ill PM my cell number hehehehe|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
Sure, I have an iron I can sell you. Anything to keep my transactions off market. How can I contact you?
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Oh btw i had green under my name before this post now it red
It seems i struck a cord lmao
But forums arent important n neither is a color
Seriously .. I meant what i said about leaving the forums .. been there done it in other games.
If you are getting angry here its not because of the players or the game its because ...? take time off n walk away before making a "thread with the word hate in it" lol
My last post here .. moving on to another hehehe nyt folks
Always a shame to see a driveby troll leave.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
FWIW, I've thrown away merits on random rolls. The results suggest that saving them is a better option.
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It isn't.
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Originally Posted by macskull
To be honest I don't understand why we keep telling these people "you are wrong" over and over when we're obviously the minority who has actually taken the time to figure out how this works, realize it's not that hard, and profit off it. If I13 and the accompanying changes to PvP was any indication, the devs don't really listen to the people who understand something well and implement changes based on what people are currently whining about, which has the effect of making the people that liked it before stop liking it, and those that complained before tool around with it a bit before deciding they don't like it either.
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What an interesting viewpoint. "the devs don't really listen to the people who understand something well".
Just a thought the devs might and this is just a maybe a really big maybe, maybe understand the game they created rather well indeed. And just maybe just maybe, when the equivalent of a five year old with an advertisement for a toy machine gun comes up to them saying how its an educational toy, they just might be able to see through it.
So when a small segment of the playerbase has something that it feels is fun but most of the playerbase is at best Meh on, they might not be inclined to amplifying the fun of the small segment and the meh of the vast majority.
RE: OP
I think, root of hate is in the fact that marketeers injecting themselves as the middlemen into supply/demand chain. IMO this hate has nothing to do with understanding of market and/or economy.
But being the subject of hate, the marketeers automatically become subject of blame (right or wrong) for any problems with market haters might have.
Somehow, I doubt that you would be feeling love to self-imposed middlemen in RL. Unless, of cause, these middlemen provide some "added value" that is important to you.
While some (maybe many) middlemen are important and necessary, many are just imposed on us by society, regulations, traditions, etc., and are rather impediment or parasite with zero or very small added value.
In CoX the marketeers are self-imposed middlemen.
What added value is provided by marketeers? Someone tried to represent "the renting of market slots" by marketeers as added value. Without any numeric data to support it, I highly doubt it. I see it only as a self-serving excuse.
But don't get me wrong. I don't blame marketeers for current state the market.
While marketeers somewhat change market dynamics (see Arcana's post), they cannot change market trends. Market trends are changed only by supply and demand (AE, more inf, faster leveling, drop rates, etc.)
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I just got a new character to 50 last night. It's a Regen Scrapper with 20-22% defense to all 3 positions and 50% global recharge. I have 650M inf, and 900 merits. (I had more merits but spent a bunch on low-level globals.) My build is shy one set of Hecatombs, one set of Obliterations, and one set of Blessing of the Zephyr to be "done", and I expect to have all of those by this coming weekend. (For those keeping track, that'll be 23-25% def to all and 60% recharge.)
I didn't farm. I didn't marketeer. All of my contact bars except a couple in Galaxy City, Striga and Croatoa are all full. Other than running the Task Force Commander TFs and a few ITF or Lady Grey TFs, I soloed the whole way. This is the 2nd character I've played up to 50 since XP smoothing, and the 1st since the I16 difficulty changes. I'm amazed how easy it is to level solo now. I went from 40-44 before I'd finsihed the arcs from two contacts, playing at +2/x2/yes/no. So I think it isn't hard to get to 50 without PLing, and I think it isn't hard to make money and thus think it isn't hard to get lots of IOs. Do I think it is easy? Let's say I don't think it's automatic. Maybe, just maybe, you're radically less patient than I am. But I think my experience again suggests that there's just a wee bit of hyperbole in these claims one has to farm their eyes out or rake their fellow players over some sort of virtual market coals to get a tricked out build. Yes, it absolutely means there shouldn't be pieces for them on the market. Do you understand that people playing the game is how those pieces get there to begin with? People like you are a big part why there are no low-level goods for sale. You want to race to 50 and consume the things others have produced, and you wonder why people are paying 500M inf for one purple. You and all your buds who race to 50 are inflating the number of people with 50s competing for those items. If you're PLing in the AE you're making it even worse, because you aren't producing any purples while you're in there. Purples are only slottable by level 50s. That tells me that they are intended to be a carrot you chase mostly once you are already 50. If everyone tries to get the carrot before they get to the end of the stick, we run out of carrots real fast, and that means the price of carrots gets really high. |
I get all that. Well written. I do farm and PL my toons in PI. I sell all the purps (again, for 222)that i do not need for the build i'm PL'ing. I even have a toon stopped at 35 for when i am in AE. I also sell every drop i get in PI/AE for 222 uncrafted. (ones that i'm not gonna use, again) So, no, i'm not part of the problem. I farm 2-3 per day and sometimes up to 10 on sat and sun, so i'm putting ALOT of stuff in WW. Salvage included. All for 222 hoping it'll help get a lowering trend.
Why don't i just team? Well, if i'm going to solo, i may as well farm to afford WW. I don't PuG, ever. Unless it's pl'ing lowers to help them get xp or inf. or unless it's with the JU chat channel. I have 5 globals that i team with. I have found more headaches in teaming with people i don't know. Ever get on a team with a kid with Group Fly? I'd rather just farm. Soloing mishes has never been my thing. But to each his/her own. We just need more drops. lol.
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The point is to allow users to exchange drops such as salvage and recipes that they cannot use for something that they can. Influence is used because a barter system would be be unworkable.|
Originally Posted by drg
what is the point of having a market / BLACK market if were not suppose to make money off of it?
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The limited number of market slots, blind pricing and the "lowest price gets the sale" rule are to encourage sellers to list items at low prices.
So, while the devs don't prevent you getting rich off the market, there's every indication that they intended that it be used primarily to facilitate the free flow of excess drops, and not for players to notch their billion-influence belts.
Posted originally 2 min before Arcanaville's and totally lost in the shuffle.
Thought I'd repost and re-toss my 2cents in.
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Originally Posted by Noght
My Eyeballs bleed when I read this stuff.
Ok, here are some universal truths: 1. You don't need IO's or the market to play the game. SO's are fine (no really). 2. Infamy/Infuence isn't created by the market. Someone somewhere is playing the game and generating cash and drops (salvage, recipes, enhancements, whatever). 3. The ONLY limiting factor is TIME. I would argue that it seems "fair" to pay "play money" to someone who is willing to sell something you want rather than try to acquiring yourself using method 1. IF you've decided that you want lvl 35 Common IO's rather than buying SO's at lvl 35, 40, 45 and 50 why not pay a fee to someone who is willing to take their finite resource, i.e TIME, to "hold" if for you so you can buy the stuff you need for a level 35 IO. 4. Complaining about flipping seems silly because the "high" prices of products ENSURE that they are available whenever you want to buy them, feel free to "negotiate" a price. Why pay 50K for an Alchemical Silver when you can bid 25K and get it tomorrow. If all the above is confusing to you take a toon to 35. Set a timer. Use the market for IO's, Salvage, Recipes to outfit it. Flip to alternate build. Set a timer. Go scrounge up the same stuff you need to outfit out that toon. Report back in a month when you are unable to get the stuff you need (assuming no AE tickets). Heck I'll bankroll the experiment for you. Then tell me if you don't think your TIME is more valuable then some "play money" that you've been complaining about. |
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This is what some people fail to grasp. |
Originally Posted by NordBlast
In CoX the marketeers are self-imposed middlemen.
What added value is provided by marketeers? Someone tried to represent "the renting of market slots" by marketeers as added value. Without any numeric data to support it, I highly doubt it. I see it only as a self-serving excuse. |
Apart from the laws of supply and demand, any system of exchange in a human community acquires a traditional and moral dimension - a moral economy with corresponding obligations and expectations, such as a just price. In this sort of moral reasoning, it isn't right to charge more for gas just because the refinery caught fire. You can't charge more for building materials in the aftermath of an earthquake. The cost to produce existing stocks didn't rise; to charge more just because of high demand or low supply violates people's traditional norms and expectations about what prices ought to be. Those norms carry the force of custom, and sometimes of law.
You can argue "supply and demand" until you're blue in the face. You can claim that the ideas of moral economy and just price just don't work in the "real world". But that kind of thinking just comes across as an apologia for greed and injustice if you start from this framework.
People confronting the markets here for the first time come with expectations shaped by the things that inf can purchase in game. The costliest things that can be bought at fixed prices with inf are level 50 Damage and Heal enhancements: each cost 60,000 inf a piece. Technically, SG prestige can be bought at a rate of 2000 prestige per million inf, but even that makes one prestige point worth 500 inf. An awaken costs a whopping 150 inf; all the rest are 50.
This is what the newcomer to the market knows. They compare set IO prices on price versus performance one and one. It's not at all surprising that people greet market prices with no small shock and dismay. And I think it is rather unwise, or at least uncouth, to belittle this perception: that is where at least some of the "hate" comes from.
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In the case of a refinery fire, the cost to produce almost certainly has gone up.
Even if the others take up the slack, the efficiency of the processes (in gallons of gas per barrel of oil) will usually take a hit. Those places normally operate at their sweet spot in the process.
To say nothing of the cost of rebuilding a refinery...
(repairs and upgrades are part of normal capital expenditure at such a facility, a complete rebuild is far in excess of that capital)
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Originally Posted by Rodion
So, while the devs don't prevent you getting rich off the market, there's every indication that they intended that it be used primarily to facilitate the free flow of excess drops, and not for players to notch their billion-influence belts.
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The market is intended "primarily" as a time sink, like every other activity in the game. Designing it to serve both the 'casual' gamer and the 'power' gamer is smart business when you're looking for ways to engage your playerbase.
If they wanted a store, they would have made a store.
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I'm not a market apologist, but there's no question that marketeers provide a service by using their slots to store items. The limit on the number of market slots forces players who collect a lot of loot to make choices about what they put on the market. To move items out of their slots non-marketeers have to price them to sell fast, or delete them. By being there to buy them, the marketeers theoretically prevent them from being deleted or vendored. But since marketeers only deal in high-demand items that would sell quickly anyway, this service is of marginal utility.|
Originally Posted by NordBlast
What added value is provided by marketeers? Someone tried to represent "the renting of market slots" by marketeers as added value. Without any numeric data to support it, I highly doubt it. I see it only as a self-serving excuse.
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The question is, how much is that service worth? The answer: as much as people are willing to pay for it. Marketeers have the same slot limitations that everyone has, but since many of them specialize in specific niches they can have up to 10 of some item for sale in each market slot, whereas players who are just selling their drops will typically only have one item per market slot. Their slot usage is therefore more efficient than scattershot sellers. So, for some marketeers at least, selling in bulk really does have some efficiencies.
I personally don't have a problem with the limited number of market slots because I play a lot of characters. I use the same tactics that marketeers use (buy low, sell high, have patience), but I'm not flipping. By the time I get back to a particular character my bids are usually filled and my items are sold. If they're not, I adjust some bids, add others or play another character.
The limited number of market slots is two-edged: in some ways it causes prices to go down (by forcing you to list items at low prices so they sell fast), and in others it causes prices on certain items to spike (by causing some players to delete or vendor items that drop frequently). I'm guessing that's why common salvage prices are so up and down. A lot of serious farmers get so much salvage that they don't bother to waste market slots on it: they just delete it when their salvage fills up. Even if you can sell Nevermelting Ice for 50,000, that's still much less than the stuff the farmers are posting.
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the same as any other middleman, smoothing the supply curve and assuring the availability of goods at market rates.
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Originally Posted by NordBlast
What added value is provided by marketeers?
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Note: Not all marketeers are flippers.|
Originally Posted by NordBlast
What added value is provided by marketeers?
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Many of the marketeers can bring crafted IOs to market more cheaply than Random Player #71931 can. This means they can list product on the market at a lower price which, if
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I never said they intended it to be a store. I just said that the market's rules and limitations exert a downward price pressure to encourage faster transaction rates.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
The market is intended "primarily" as a time sink, like every other activity in the game. Designing it to serve both the 'casual' gamer and the 'power' gamer is smart business when you're looking for ways to engage your playerbase.
If they wanted a store, they would have made a store. |
If they intended to be a store, they would have let you list any number of items, displayed the prices and choose the seller you're buying from. By having to compete blindly with other sellers and awarding the sale to the lowest price, you're encouraged to sell low (or at least post at "$9.99"-style prices).
The market's rules also make it a lot more interesting than the auction and sales systems in other MMORPGs. The uncertainties about pricing, who gets the sale and the lack of time limit on postings let you do "long-term investments" that you just can't do with the auction style systems.
The fact that it's a time sink goes without saying.
I just wonder how people know that they are buying from a marketeer and not just a "normal" player listing an item.
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Originally Posted by Enots
I just wonder how people know that they are buying from a marketeer and not just a "normal" player listing an item.
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BECAUSE IT'S NOT FREE!
no way would a 'casual gamer' want a fair price for their junk, they would be giving it away for free!
=P
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Quote:
The problem with this perspective is that influence is not a normalized currency. It barely functions as currency at all in CoX. Its really a proxy for time and when your currency has as its sole foundation of value the amount of time it takes to earn, its virtually impossible to support a marginal utility valuation philosophy.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
This is what some people fail to grasp.
Apart from the laws of supply and demand, any system of exchange in a human community acquires a traditional and moral dimension - a moral economy with corresponding obligations and expectations, such as a just price. In this sort of moral reasoning, it isn't right to charge more for gas just because the refinery caught fire. You can't charge more for building materials in the aftermath of an earthquake. The cost to produce existing stocks didn't rise; to charge more just because of high demand or low supply violates people's traditional norms and expectations about what prices ought to be. Those norms carry the force of custom, and sometimes of law. You can argue "supply and demand" until you're blue in the face. You can claim that the ideas of moral economy and just price just don't work in the "real world". But that kind of thinking just comes across as an apologia for greed and injustice if you start from this framework. People confronting the markets here for the first time come with expectations shaped by the things that inf can purchase in game. The costliest things that can be bought at fixed prices with inf are level 50 Damage and Heal enhancements: each cost 60,000 inf a piece. Technically, SG prestige can be bought at a rate of 2000 prestige per million inf, but even that makes one prestige point worth 500 inf. An awaken costs a whopping 150 inf; all the rest are 50. This is what the newcomer to the market knows. They compare set IO prices on price versus performance one and one. It's not at all surprising that people greet market prices with no small shock and dismay. And I think it is rather unwise, or at least uncouth, to belittle this perception: that is where at least some of the "hate" comes from. |
You can say that an enhancement that offers 5% better performance shouldn't cost more than about 5% more in a "moral" economy, but with so much influence chasing so few commodities and with influence so easy to earn that's not just impractical, its impossible.
Part of the problem is exactly what you mention, but not in the way you think. So many things cost so little their cost is virtually zero. Inspirations, for example, cost basically nothing, especially to high level characters who can earn one inspiration worth of influence in about one second. Because so many things cost nothing, there is no incentive to preserve influence to buy anything *except* high value items.
Basically, the CoX economy isn't functioning like any normal economy - which is true for many if not most virtual economies. There is stuff that you can buy with pocket change, and the stuff that requires a wheelbarrow of money. And that changes *everyone's* perspectives, not just market manipulators.
Real economies sometimes show hints of similar psychology. Its often weirdly in the areas with the highest home ownership costs that you see people who *don't* own their own homes but *do* own incredibly expensive cars. Logic suggests that if homes cost a lot of money most people would save to buy them, and buy cheaper cars. But buyers psychology twists that: instead people will often assume that home ownership is simply impossible - and because that expense no longer exists, ironically they have a higher budget for car purchases. Similarly, for probably *most* players there is a threshold beyond which the player presumes they will never have enough influence to buy those items. And that causes them to choose to spend a lot more on everything else.
Almost no one really operates under "moral economy" values. Even most of the most casual and most altruistic players are operating under a time valuation psychology, and that makes it impossible to convince even the people who would benefit from it to operate within a utilitarian valuation model. And most "moral" economies rely on such models to function.
All of this is completely separate from the fact that pursuit items and rewards in MMOs are incompatible with "moral economies" almost by definition. They must, to function correctly within the balance limits of the game, have exponentially higher costs to acquire and diminishingly lower incremental value. Valued based on utility there would be no incentive to sell the best of them, because their dictated price would be orders of magnitude lower than the effort required to attain them. They'd be hoarded or given to friends rather than sold as the rational thing to do. In other words, they would be like Hamidon enhancements prior to the introduction of the markets in I9.
One last thing: most discussions of "moral economies" presume that what is being discussed are relatively pedestrian, utilitarian, and fundamentally necessary goods and services. Almost no one talks about moral imperatives when it comes to pricing completely optional, arbitrary value items such as non-utilitarian jewelry. Although market items have utility, they are currently optional items relative to playing the game. If people cannot buy certain items, there almost no social cost to that fact; those players are not exempted from any activity. To say that the Numina's proc has a morally acceptable price is like saying a Ferrari has a morally acceptable price that is some small multiple of a Honda Civic.
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Quote:
Hate? a little harsh. It's more an dislike with great intensity. |
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
According to this thread, the people who play the market minigame "abuse it and drive prices out of control".
I'm not here to start another discussion on the idea presented in that thread. I've left my comments there. However, what struck me in that thread is how many misconceptions still remain about people who play the market. I guess since the PvPers were essentially hamstrung (practically driven out of this game) in issue 13, marketeers have become the new bogeymen. We're the ones who are obviously manipulating purples prices to keep them out of the hands of the mythical "casual player". We're the ones who are responsible for the spikes in common salvage prices, and why the "casual player" is FORCED to pay 1 million for that circuit board. We're the ones that make it impossible for the "casual player" to fully outfit their character with all the IOs they want at level 50. We're the ones that cheat the system and have billions when the "casual player" may barely have 10 million when they reach level 50. We're obviously cheaters, swindlers and no good con artists. Worst yet, we're in cohoots with farmers, AE exploiters and RMT companies. Of course what's never mentioned is the fact that almost all of us have given away our methods on how to become rich; that many of us have given away millions (billions) to other players just because we can; that the methods we use are based on observation, knowledge and sometimes a bit of luck - there is no voodoo or trickery and it can be replicated by just about anyone; that a large majority of the player base benefits in using the market, both in buying what they want and selling what they don't need - marketeers are not a small minority in this game, they may represent a large majority. But of course, it's easy to lash out at the bogeyman when you don't understand or are too lazy to care. And unfortunately for us there are enough lazy or ignorant people to lend weight to their voices. Instead of making careful adjustments to a system, which is in large part working, they demand large scale, radical changes. RMTers have polluted the market and anyone with large stockpiles of influence/infamy is immediately suspect. While part of me hopes that the developers will listen to reasoned voices and to people who understand the system, I can simply point to the travesty that is the current PvP implementation on what happens when mob mentality rather than knowledgable players weigh in how to change a system. |
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
There is no "we."
There is no "us."
There is no "us" versus "them."
There are simply players in a video game. No two people use the market in the same way.
Oh and Mod8 plays the market, and Babs probably does as well. So the CR team (and by extension the dev team) support the current in game market because they understand and use it. (That's why this isn't comparable to PVP - none of the development team PVP'd at anything near a competitive level.)
Add in the fact that purples/PVPIOs are supposed to be rare & supposed to be the mother of all time sinks (time sinks = subscription fees) then you will understand why the development team do not want to change the market.