Quote:
Bear in mind, I am not an active flipper (what I figure is the the most general category of "marketeer").|
Originally Posted by NordBlast
What added value is provided by marketeers? Someone tried to represent "the renting of market slots" by marketeers as added value. Without any numeric data to support it, I highly doubt it. I see it only as a self-serving excuse.
But don't get me wrong. I don't blame marketeers for current state the market. |
That said, I see a potential value for the flippers. Whether it's actually useful to any given player is extremely conditional and highly subject to that player's current perspective.
Flippers convert something that would be quickly taken off of the market due to low list price and keep it on the market by increasing the price required to buy it, presumably to a value closer to the current equilibrium price. This denies the item in question from later bidders who aren't willing to pay that higher price. This can be seen as reserving the item for people willing to pay the higher price. (Note that any bidders competing with the flipper to buy the item initially only have to beat the flipper's own bid price, not the flipper's higher list price.)
Now, the later bidders who are unwilling to pay the new, higher price probably aren't going to think this is so hot.
The people willing to pay more for the item either may like this "service" or not care, depending on supply of the item in question. If the item is rare enough to mean that a rich-blooded bidder might have to wait for a new listing had the flipper not re-listed the item, the rich-blooded buyer probably likes the flipper, because the flipper helped ensure something was there to buy "right nao". If, on the other hand, the flipper is just scraping low-ball listings and merging them into an existing stable oversupply of the item, the rich-blooded bidder probably doesn't care, because there were some there to buy anyway.
Mostly, I don't think marketeers need a justified existence in the market. They're players making good use of opportunities presented to them. This is not different to me than people who build their characters for maximum performance. Marketeers are, mostly just doing the same thing with a different mini-game. However, for reasons listed in this thread, the fact that they "got there first", "got reward easier", or denied someone else a theoretical opportunity (to buy something cheap), they are often reviled.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
As has been discussed many times in these forums, appeal to those concepts break down severely in a virtual environment. Moral economic customs and laws exist because, without them, people in distressed situations might be denied fundamental necessities of survival, and thereby, denied the ability to survive or avoid severe injury or distress.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
This is what some people fail to grasp.
Apart from the laws of supply and demand, any system of exchange in a human community acquires a traditional and moral dimension - a moral economy with corresponding obligations and expectations, such as a just price. In this sort of moral reasoning, it isn't right to charge more for gas just because the refinery caught fire. You can't charge more for building materials in the aftermath of an earthquake. The cost to produce existing stocks didn't rise; to charge more just because of high demand or low supply violates people's traditional norms and expectations about what prices ought to be. Those norms carry the force of custom, and sometimes of law. |
That is, by definition, impossible in a video game. Denying someone a Hecatomb proc will never deny the player at the keyboard their ability to exist, or risk that they suffer real life debilitation or injury except in the most outré of edge cases.
Seriously, I just can't accept the notion of applying moral economics to luxury goods in an environment that is, itself, a luxury to its players. I can't imagine what people in, say, Haiti would think of the comparison right now.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I don't want to overdramatize the issue. The issue isn't related to the fact that CoH itself is not a necessity. Its more the case that there is a social consensus to build around in the real world when it comes to things like the cost and availability of food, clothing, education, etc. We can at least *frame* the discussion, even if the participants don't all agree on the rationale.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
As has been discussed many times in these forums, appeal to those concepts break down severely in a virtual environment. Moral economic customs and laws exist because, without them, people in distressed situations might be denied fundamental necessities of survival, and thereby, denied the ability to survive or avoid severe injury or distress.
That is, by definition, impossible in a video game. Denying someone a Hecatomb proc will never deny the player at the keyboard their ability to exist, or risk that they suffer real life debilitation or injury except in the most outré of edge cases. Seriously, I just can't accept the notion of applying moral economics to luxury goods in an environment that is, itself, a luxury to its players. I can't imagine what people in, say, Haiti would think of the comparison right now. |
However, that consensus doesn't exist for most of the commodities in CoH within the context of playing the game because there's nothing remotely close to a consensus on the social cost of not being purpled out. And if no one can agree even in ballpark terms on what the penalty is for lacking such items, there's no way to come to an agreement on what the availability, and therefore the ethical price for such items should be.
I think if it were possible to "corner" the market on DOs and SOs, you could argue that was an anti-social behavior because those things are presumed by the designers of the game to be the baseline requirements for playing the game at a reasonable power level. That's true even if the game is not as important as life and limb. But that's not possible because there are stores with infinite supplies and static costs for those. Its a much harder case to make that one player's pleasure in acquiring an invention is worth more than another player's pleasure in selling it at a high return on investment, because those are considered optional "luxury" items according to the design of the game, and there is no social consensus which overrides that game design statement.
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In other words, everything that could be bought before I9 is effectively free now as long as you sell your drops on the market. |
Originally Posted by Heraclea
People confronting the markets here for the first time come with expectations shaped by the things that inf can purchase in game. The costliest things that can be bought at fixed prices with inf are level 50 Damage and Heal enhancements: each cost 60,000 inf a piece. Technically, SG prestige can be bought at a rate of 2000 prestige per million inf, but even that makes one prestige point worth 500 inf. An awaken costs a whopping 150 inf; all the rest are 50. |
It's a question of perspective.
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
Quote:
I'm not really claiming that moral concepts of a just price ought to be applied here. My "appeal" to these ideas is more by way of an explanation: you're dealing with a phenomenon that reasserts itself throughout history. Merely waving people off with the notion that "IOs aren't a necessity, and in fact the game isn't a necessity" isn't going to be convincing. It's likely going to make them madder. We all know that qu'ils mangent des brioches is a path to the guillotine. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
As has been discussed many times in these forums, appeal to those concepts break down severely in a virtual environment. Moral economic customs and laws exist because, without them, people in distressed situations might be denied fundamental necessities of survival, and thereby, denied the ability to survive or avoid severe injury or distress.
|
It is, of course, ridiculous to compare Kinetic Combats to food and shelter. But all they're going to see is a price tag they doubt they'll ever be able to pay. And on the internet, slight grievances are magnified.
But one more relevant question is: are prices so out of hand that some players abandon the game because they see the rewards as something they'll never be able to achieve? This is what soured me on another game: there was a raiding path to advancement, a PvP path to advancement, and both were so difficult, so time consuming, and so fraught with potential conflict with my fellow players that I gave up trying.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Holy cow, this flame thread has devolved into a reasonable discussion!
Given my own scant background in economics, I find the moral economy stuff really interesting. Amazing what can happen when the people on both sides of the argument actually have some idea of what they're talking about.
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The trivial answer to all such questions is "yes." For everything the game does, for everything the game doesn't do, and for everything people think the game does but doesn't do, there will be people who quit over it.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
But one more relevant question is: are prices so out of hand that some players abandon the game because they see the rewards as something they'll never be able to achieve?
|
The more relevant question is whether enough of them do to be significant. We miss out on a lot of players because we are not a classical fantasy game. We lose players after the fact for the same reason. But we are a superhero (or superpowered, anyway) genre game, and we accept the costs of not being a space opera, or a swords and sorcery game, or whatever.
The question for any feature is always two-fold: is the feature enough of a positive to be worth it and are the negatives low enough to be worth it, and is that feature part of the game the devs want to make even if it means the target audience might not conform exactly to the current playerbase (meaning: they are targeting people that might not be you personally, for the general definition of "you").
The introduction of inventions themselves, separate from the markets, were an instance of this type of decision-making. If you were a player that absolutely did not want gear or crafting of any kind in your game, then CoH came close to that ideal until I9. I9 changed the game, and for some players probably in an unacceptable way. But the devs have to weigh that against the potential benefit of having gear, and I think they did a reasonably good job of preserving most of the "good" aspects of gear without most of the "bad" aspects of gear, at least in terms of the average playerbase expectations at the time. But not everyone agreed, and not all of those who disagreed were willing or able to stick around in spite of that disagreement.
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Ah, my apologies. I misunderstood your direction.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
I'm not really claiming that moral concepts of a just price ought to be applied here. My "appeal" to these ideas is more by way of an explanation: you're dealing with a phenomenon that reasserts itself throughout history.
|
Quote:
| Merely waving people off with the notion that "IOs aren't a necessity, and in fact the game isn't a necessity" isn't going to be convincing. It's likely going to make them madder. We all know that qu'ils mangent des brioches is a path to the guillotine. |
Quote:
| But one more relevant question is: are prices so out of hand that some players abandon the game because they see the rewards as something they'll never be able to achieve? This is what soured me on another game: there was a raiding path to advancement, a PvP path to advancement, and both were so difficult, so time consuming, and so fraught with potential conflict with my fellow players that I gave up trying. |
I think it's worth noting that getting one or two fairly transforming IOs - the ones that give you +recovery, should be within reach of nearly every player. Thanks to merits they can be had outright even if the player can't drum up 200M or so to buy them (that's for both) on the market.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I don't want to overdramatize the issue. The issue isn't related to the fact that CoH itself is not a necessity. Its more the case that there is a social consensus to build around in the real world when it comes to things like the cost and availability of food, clothing, education, etc. We can at least *frame* the discussion, even if the participants don't all agree on the rationale.
|
Quote:
| However, that consensus doesn't exist for most of the commodities in CoH within the context of playing the game because there's nothing remotely close to a consensus on the social cost of not being purpled out. And if no one can agree even in ballpark terms on what the penalty is for lacking such items, there's no way to come to an agreement on what the availability, and therefore the ethical price for such items should be. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Anyone ever thought that even though prices are high, it's not actually THAT bad? I mean, even if you marketeers drive the prices way up, I still benefit from that because now I can sell my stuff at a hgh rate. Likewise, if you guys did not drive prices up, I would be making much less cash. So in essence, I am partially benefitting from your ebilness (So long as I dont go for the "buy it nao" price, that is).
The only thing I really hate is when I'm trying to IO a toon and some jackas* marketeer decides to buy up all the ancient artifacts and list them at a ridiculous rate.
If the above point(s) have already been brought up, I apologize. I do not have the time, nor the testicular fortitude to go through and read 7 pages of ranting and debate.
EDIT: I am not saying that when people buy up all the salvage that there aren't ways around it. I'm simply saying that it's annoying. And it has been brought to my attention that they are not always jackas* marketeers who do that.
Quote:
For better or for worse, the game is also a community. Your neighbors are watching you, and will not hesitate to express displeasure when their norms are broken. It does not matter that the norms go beyond the formal laws enforced by terms of service and GMs, and forbid what the formal rules would allow. This was that PvP griefing professor's great discovery. I think it's unreasonable to expect that the community will not develop similar norms about proper and improper use of the market. Telling people that they must not seems a vain endeavour. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
As Arcanaville points out, if lacking these goods made the core game unassailable, then I believe this would have merit. Instead, people are trying to cast these goods as necessary for their enjoyment of the core game. Because of this, I view this as allowing jealousy of "haves" to overshadow what they actually think is worth playing. Just because such behavior is common does not mean I accept that concessions should be made for it.
|
Again, historically, prices of anything have a customary and traditional dimension. People will continue to judge prices as fair or unfair based on what things have cost in the past, and what they cost relative to comparable goods. They will not stop doing this because you tell them not to. They will not stop doing this because you tell them they don't really need whatever's priced at the price they look askance on. They will not stop doing this because you tell them that their expectations are economically naive and ignore supply and demand. And their jealousy, or their outrage at seeing the community's norms broken, can be a potent and violent force.
And, as Arcanaville said, the "currencies" or reward systems are in some fashion proxies for time spent pursuing them in game. This is why I prefer not to hold inf. If I want a Numina regen/recovery button on a character, I know for sure that I can earn one by completing four Positron TFs. Then, if I run enough AE missions, I will have the salvage needed to make it.
I might also be able to earn enough inf to buy one on the AH during a similar stint. I mght be able to make enough inf to buy it by random rolling those merits and selling the recipes instead. This introduces elements of chance and price fluctuation: uncertainties I choose to avoid. There is too much inf chasing too few goods, and as such inf strikes me as a poor store of value.
Yes, set IOs are luxury goods. The game is a luxury good. When people are moved to outrage over the prices of staples, they may riot. When they believe that luxury goods are unfairly overpriced, they'll choose to spend their money - or rather, their time - elsewhere. Given the fact that this is an online game that competes against similar entertainments, this last decision is disaster enough even if it doesn't quite have the moral drama of a bread riot.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Quote:
Have you no care for all the Warshades in the workhouses sir ?
|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
As has been discussed many times in these forums, appeal to those concepts break down severely in a virtual environment. Moral economic customs and laws exist because, without them, people in distressed situations might be denied fundamental necessities of survival, and thereby, denied the ability to survive or avoid severe injury or distress.
That is, by definition, impossible in a video game. Denying someone a Hecatomb proc will never deny the player at the keyboard their ability to exist, or risk that they suffer real life debilitation or injury except in the most outré of edge cases. Seriously, I just can't accept the notion of applying moral economics to luxury goods in an environment that is, itself, a luxury to its players. I can't imagine what people in, say, Haiti would think of the comparison right now. |
Quote:
This definitely true. Eventually the market will stabilize but during periods of inflation like we seem to have at the moment Inf is a poor storage of value. Note that conversely if the devs instituted changes that reduced the amount of new influence being generated and thus caused deflation then suddenly Inf is a good storage of value.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
There is too much inf chasing too few goods, and as such inf strikes me as a poor store of value.
|
That being said, for me slotted enhancements are the best means of storing value becuase they give me enjoyment
.
Quote:
For better or worse, they already have. And my evaluation is that the consensus average viewpoint is that the market is an optional, mostly innocuous element of the game. The people who dislike either the market or the behavior of its participants more than any other minor game element is currently the extreme minority. Some people could grudgingly participate in the market but overall participation is far too high to be explained by gruding participants. Most people seem willing to accept that the same forces that work to their disadvantage at times also work to their advantage at times, such as high prices which actually tend to benefit the casual player more than hurts them, because they tend to be overall sellers rather than buyers.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
For better or for worse, the game is also a community. Your neighbors are watching you, and will not hesitate to express displeasure when their norms are broken. It does not matter that the norms go beyond the formal laws enforced by terms of service and GMs, and forbid what the formal rules would allow. This was that PvP griefing professor's great discovery. I think it's unreasonable to expect that the community will not develop similar norms about proper and improper use of the market. Telling people that they must not seems a vain endeavour.
|
I see no evidence that there is a silent majority of people that want significant change to the way the market works. Theoretically speaking, if you ask the average person if they want lower prices, I'm sure they would say yes, but only with the same strength they would also say yes to having slightly higher leveling rate. The number that think its problematic appears far lower.
I observed the market - which is to say the market community - evolve very carefully and very critically from its inception and for over a year afterwards, because I was one of its harshest critics when it was first announced. However, the community at large very quickly converged to using the markets and the invention system mostly as the devs envisioned both: as optional metagames. Honestly, I wasn't sure we had it in us. There are corner cases and individual negative anecdotes to be sure, but no more than there are with any other activity of similar scope.
Quote:
| Yes, set IOs are luxury goods. The game is a luxury good. When people are moved to outrage over the prices of staples, they may riot. When they believe that luxury goods are unfairly overpriced, they'll choose to spend their money - or rather, their time - elsewhere. Given the fact that this is an online game that competes against similar entertainments, this last decision is disaster enough even if it doesn't quite have the moral drama of a bread riot. |
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I don't think those norms will ever develop. It's been quite a while, and I don't see any indication that they exist. I declare that I am a farmer, a hero of the people who supplies stuff to the Market like an honest hard-working producer. But really, is that all I use the market for? You'll never know. |
Originally Posted by Heraclea
I think it's unreasonable to expect that the community will not develop similar norms about proper and improper use of the market.
|
I will decide how I use the Market. There is no absolute morality. We're talking about shinies in a video game after all. There is no absolute fair price. The Market is a consignment house, not a store. No one knows what I am buying or selling. No one will ever know if I'm using the Market improperly (which is ENTIRELY subjective), so why should I care? In fact we probably disagree as to the proper use of the Market. There's no reason for norms to even form.I suspect most Marketeers (including me) view the Market as a minigame, where the object is to earn Inf or get what you want from others in an indirect PvPish setting. Everything about the Market seems to support that view. Telling Marketeers to stop because you want to get some shinies ("win" at their chosen game) is just plain stupid. It's like standing in a PvP zone and asking the PvPers not to fight back, because you want PvP IOs or the 400 Rep badge. You are asking them to stop doing something they enjoy, so that instead you can do something that you enjoy. It's just not gonna happen.
Wait! I've seen the light! I will no longer be an ebil Marketeer! Promise!
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
Quote:
Not a bad assumption.|
Originally Posted by TopDoc
I suspect most Marketeers (including me) view the Market as a minigame, where the object is to earn Inf or get what you want from others in an indirect PvPish setting. |
After hitting 50 so many times that I no longer know how many 50's I have without logging in and counting, challenging myself by running this and that TF in less than a certain time period, hunting badges, roll a specialized toon to solo an AV, optimize and pimp a non-specialized toon to solo an AV, forming a SG and make it thrive and so on and so forth, I'm currently playing the market game. 1st goal was to get a field crafter, 2nd was inf cap my fire/kin without farming, and now that I have 2B+, my next goal is to try to go 0-2B in less than 10 days. I also find a slight enjoyment in knowing that the transactions are between real ppl and not NPC's.
I used to be a buy it nao person, and marketing didn't really come easy to me, but if I can hit 2B, anyone can. That is also the reason why I lack the ability to feel sorry for the chums who don't want to understand the only thing needed to make a fortune:
Cheapest item for sale is the first to go, and it goes to the highest bidder!
I'm sorry, but if you (the ppl hating marketeers, not TopDoc) wanna hate me for making money on your impatience, I really couldn't care less. Grow some patience and steal my deals, I'm ok with that and I'll adapt and overcome.
...and no matter how interesting it might be to apply real world economics and theories here, it really doesn't work well in game. That's the reason I failed miserably in the beginning of my market endeavours. Coming from Eve-Online, I was expecting the market and interaction between players to be more advanced, but it really isn't.
Any and all spelling, grammar and logic errors are intentional so this post will blend seamlessly into the Internet
---------------------------
Unbelievable. You, [subject name here], must be the pride of [subject hometown here]!
Two cents on the market...
I. Purples and PVP IOs need to be purchasable with merits and/or tickets. This alternative smooths out supply and lets players establish their own reasonable rate of exchange for what an item should cost in inf vs the time it takes to create a new one. It works just fine for highly desirable items like LotG 7.5s, Numina uniques, rare salvage, etc. When prices for these items get "too high" people are motivated to create more supply and equilibrium is maintained.
Without that safety valve, the market is always starved for supply, prices go into the stratosphere and people come here venting their misplaced frustrations on marketeers when the problems is the game, not the playa.
II. People who hate the market have forgotten what it was like pre-I9. Omega loot was far, far harder to obtain. A crude barter system where your trading partners were limited to the people you could directly contact, supply was limited to what dropped on your server and trade was too slow and inefficient for influence to come into play in a major way.
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I don't agree with this. I think Purples and PvP IO's are grossly over-valued when it comes to performance....especially when teaming. Having played pre-ED on, the effectiveness of individual characters has increased dramatically, simply with frankenslotting. This doesn't even take into account various set bonuses. Most of the 'cheaper' set IO's include various set bonuses that further increase effectiveness....in an environment that is still based around SOs. |
Originally Posted by SkeetSkeet
Two cents on the market...
I. Purples and PVP IOs need to be purchasable with merits and/or tickets. This alternative smooths out supply and lets players establish their own reasonable rate of exchange for what an item should cost in inf vs the time it takes to create a new one. It works just fine for highly desirable items like LotG 7.5s, Numina uniques, rare salvage, etc. When prices for these items get "too high" people are motivated to create more supply and equilibrium is maintained. |
Edit: Some anecdotal evidence.....
My Spines/Dark Scrapper can breeze through +2/8 missions with no bosses easily. His IO's cost around 400 million.....with no purples or PvP IO's. My Dark/Ice Defender can also breeze through the same missions...at a much lower speed. In fact it takes forever in comparison...but he's still relatively safe. I can think of only two AT's that could possibly reach that potential pre-ED...my Dark/Regen Scrapper, who was nearly unkillable, and my Fire/Fire Tank....both of which were grossly overpowered. I don't have a single character with purple or PvP IOs simply because I don't need them.
The only instances in which purples and PvP IO's might make a significant differences are rare.....soloing AVs, and PvP. The rest of the content, even taking into account the more recent TFs increase in difficulty, is trivially easy.
A frankenslotted character with cheap IO's is generally more powerful than almost all pre-ED characters...and its much easier to afford to get your character that way then when we were six slotting with SOs.
I only read the first post, but will just use my powers of deductive reasoning to guess at all the rest.
With that said:
I find it odd that folks will blame marketers for essentially making a choice to place an item up for a large sum of money.
and
I find it odd that marketers will blame folks for essentially making a choice to buy an item for a large sum of money.
That is all.
P.S.
Or you can do what I do and completely ignore that the market even exists because I loathe game markets with every fiber of my being. You might be surprised just how much I've accumulated and slotted on my various alts simply by playing the game. And by that I mean, no farming, no marketing, not even trading among friends though I would not be opposed to that last one, it just has never come up.
"All that crap is grey to me, no XP." - Positron 5/15/05 8:36am . . . The world stopped and silence ensued except for the sound of a crying infant off in the distance.
"Everyone needs to chill the hell out." - BackAlleyBrawler 11/13/08 3:26pm . . . Geeks around the world stopped and blinked.
Quote:
So you basically jump into a thread, discussing something that you never go near, read first post, skipping the rest and conclude that both sides of the fence are behaving irrational?|
Originally Posted by Ashlocke
I only read the first post, but will just use my powers of deductive reasoning to guess at all the rest.
With that said: I find it odd that folks will blame marketers for essentially making a choice to place an item up for a large sum of money. and I find it odd that marketers will blame folks for essentially making a choice to buy an item for a large sum of money. That is all. P.S. Or you can do what I do and completely ignore that the market even exists because I loathe game markets with every fiber of my being. You might be surprised just how much I've accumulated and slotted on my various alts simply by playing the game. And by that I mean, no farming, no marketing, not even trading among friends though I would not be opposed to that last one, it just has never come up. |
Not bad...
Any and all spelling, grammar and logic errors are intentional so this post will blend seamlessly into the Internet
---------------------------
Unbelievable. You, [subject name here], must be the pride of [subject hometown here]!
Quote:
With this being the internet and all.... yes.
|
Originally Posted by Nerfherder
So you basically jump into a thread, discussing something that you never go near, read first post, skipping the rest and conclude that both sides of the fence are behaving irrational?
Not bad... |
"All that crap is grey to me, no XP." - Positron 5/15/05 8:36am . . . The world stopped and silence ensued except for the sound of a crying infant off in the distance.
"Everyone needs to chill the hell out." - BackAlleyBrawler 11/13/08 3:26pm . . . Geeks around the world stopped and blinked.
Quote:
Happens a lot round here.|
Originally Posted by Redoubtable
Holy cow, this flame thread has devolved into a reasonable discussion!
Given my own scant background in economics, I find the moral economy stuff really interesting. Amazing what can happen when the people on both sides of the argument actually have some idea of what they're talking about. |
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It's probably best to not try and convince Heraclea of things that are actually true, Goat.
|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
It isn't.
|
Heraclea said
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... this is half right. | People will continue to judge prices as fair or unfair based on what things have cost in the past, and what they cost relative to comparable goods. They will not stop doing this because you tell them not to. They will not stop doing this because you tell them they don't really need whatever's priced at the price they look askance on. They will not stop doing this because you tell them that their expectations are economically naive and ignore supply and demand. And their jealousy, or their outrage at seeing the community's norms broken, can be a potent and violent force. |
Everyone remembers when prices go UP. Nobody remembers when prices go DOWN. For the week of 7/17/2007, Pangaean Soil was 4.1 million. Do people at the market rejoice every time they buy one?
The price of level 50 Crushing Impacts has gone down- I don't have the hard data, but I think they've gone from around 10 million each to under a million. Do people smile and tell each other of the glorious new days they live in?
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Yes., You are hated because us honest players post salvage low so that people that NEED them can buy them, yet you greedy marketeers just flip them when you don't NEED the salvage. In conclusion, we hate you.
I took your post to mean that the mini-game aspect of the market for scorekeeper type gamers was some sort of unintended, undesired consequence for the devs.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone