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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Im'ma goat, rawr.
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Originally Posted by MeanNVicious
They are 100% right. It's simply the truth. Rant on about economic mechanics all you want, and use it as an excuse to justify what you do. The simple truth is - if so many people didn't purposely flip with the intent to drive up prices for their own profit - the prices would be COMPLETELY different in our little market. And yes that means far far lower. Period.
Before you rant on about supply and demand think of this - when the market first came out - and there was zero supply of anything - you would assume that would be the peak of pricing no ? But it wasnt. Those prices were but a fraction of what we see today for comparable items (yes some new things exist but the top tier items were equally rare at that point in time). Marketeers have steadily driven up pricing on anything they could flip. People want and need to buy these things in our little closed market. The flippers are simply the ones setting the price. They prey on the want and need and exploit it for their profit. Without marketeers I guarantee you pricing would never have ever gotten near this point. Its just the truth. So many of you come here and brag about how you drove up the price on item "x" all the time. Revel in the mad profits you make by exploiting the system. You blatantly admit to it pretty much daily. Those you call lazy arent actually lazy. They are just observant. And calling you out seems to make marketeers freak and go into massive self defense mode. Trying to defend what they do and say "its not us really...". When in fact it is, and has been all along. LOL ... seriously WTF ?! |
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Originally Posted by rainmaker
I find this laughable.
I've bought my share of overpriced salvage due to the "Marketeer's minigame" and people like you have never given me a cent. <snip> And yes... your game affects the casual player alot. |
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Originally Posted by eryq2
LOL. Market isn't for casual players? So, casual players don't want/like the benefits of set bonuses? Sounds like discrimination to me. Can we please get a DEV to say, "casual players stay out of WW"! Or, "WW isn't made for the casual player hence the low drop rates and only farmers and pvp'ers can use sets".
Devs? Can you back up that theory please? |
I'm always amazed by the idea that you can't get IO's at the market. I haven't been playing that much (Curse you Hearts of Iron III), but I have fully IO'd a lvl 50 character of my spouse's over the last month with the vast majority of those being low-ball (I mean really lowball) bids.
The best part - it was Villain side.
Just takes a little patience.
If it makes you feel any better, I don't hate you. It's a market, not a frickin' commune, and no amount of magical thinking is going to make prices drop below the equilibrium.
I'm hated. My rep is red nao! D: MY WHOLE LIFE IS A LIIIIIIIE.
Also, if people stop overpaying for the **** I post, I'll stop accepting their money. It's up for 112k, people, stop giving me 300k!
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Originally Posted by eryq2
It's not my place to try to decypher what is meant.
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| When someone says, "the market is not for casual players", it pretty much says it all. |
| Just because people set up 10 toons in WW to flip, try to buy low, or whatever they do shouldn't be the only way to get stuff and to be refered to as lazy if they don't want to take these measures is moronic. |
| I didn't say marketeers were why i don't IO much any more. I said the ever increasing rates are making me just throw commons on them. |
| It shouldn't be like a 2nd job to get nice stuff for our toons and it is. |
| You either have to buy inf, search the market for niches, or farm like i do. |
| It's just becoming more of a hassle to log my 3 accounts and farm nonstop for nice IO's. |
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Originally Posted by peterpeter
[posts **** for 111,999 inf]
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Logged in tonight, checked on some stuff I put up for sale last week. 38 million profit. Used that to buy two entire sets plus two more IOs and the salvage to build.
Listed common salvage for 500, made an average of 28K each listing. Some of them for much more.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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Originally Posted by eryq2
It shouldn't be like a 2nd job to get nice stuff for our toons and it is. You either have to buy inf, search the market for niches, or farm like i do.
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I hate flippers. They annoy me when I'm in a rush.
My main villain has a billion inf on him. I should get around to finishing his build sometime. My main hero is about as tweaked as he can be. He's sitting on 500 mil inf.
I don't flip. I don't play the market. I flip out and kill stuff.
I dont know but PVP is a good way to get rich, I get a pvp drop once every 2 weeks or so and the crappy ones go for about 150 Million where as the best go for inlfuence cap. Just another way to play and get rich I guess. And im just a casualy zone person who spends maybe an hour or 2 a day in their some days not even going in cause I still like to play my pve toons.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Good luck with that. The best I can do for you is that both during I9 beta and after release I discussed the question of the purpose of the market with the devs, and posted their basic answers repeatedly back in the day (back when I was more active on the market forums). The market is intended to be a mini-game within the game, and as such it is a form of PvP in at least some respects. It isn't explicitly designed to exclude "casual" players, but that's a matter of definition. Players seeking to participate in the market must assume that they are buying and selling with and against other players, and the devs will no more police that activity than they will police who teams with who.
Its designed to make it relatively easy to participate, and relatively difficult to manipulate in many respects (although all markets have some ability to be manipulated regardless). Like almost all aspects of the game, such as inventions, casual players can participate, but they cannot automatically expect optimal returns relative to players that spend more time learning the system. As to the question of whether flippers cause inflation, essentially they cannot do that. In order to be a flipper, you must buy things - which makes you the highest bidder for that item - and sell things - which makes you the lowest seller for that item. Flipping only closes the gap between the highest bidder and the lowest seller**. Whatever the highest bidder and lowest seller were before the flipper every arrives, he can only drive the price to some value between those two. And in fact, flipping is a self-annihilating process. In theory, someone could outflip the flipper by simply bidding a little more, and selling for a little less. Essentially you are going inside the flipper: placing your orders within the gap of the flipper***. Eventually, this process reduces the gap to the point where the flipper cannot make a profit on the activity (or any reasonably high enough one to be practical). However, that is what flipping does: it *reduces* profit margins on sales and *increases* the likelihood of executions. The only way a "flipper" can cause inflation is to somehow cause people to bid more than before. The flipper cannot just arbitrarily keep up with the higher bids because they are capped above by the sellers. At some point bidding higher kills the profit on the exchange. The only way a marketeer can drive prices upward is to stop flipping and attempt a corner. This is where the marketeer buys up as much of the supply as possible, making it difficult or impossible to obtain the item****. Eventually, people will get impatient and start bidding higher to obtain the item faster. If the item is such that the players can be goaded into escalating the bids rapidly, the marketeer them starts selling slowly into the rising bids - slow enough to prevent a price collapse. Eventually, the marketeer can "reset" the buyer expectations for the item and cause them to bid higher of their own accord for at least a substantial amount of time. If they can sell enough of their stock at the higher price without excessive buying, they can profit on the corner. If they guess wrong about supply (if they try to corner an item that can flood into the market) or psychology (if the try to corner people will just not buy the item or wait them out) then they can lose a lot of influence in the attempt. These days, I am neither a farmer nor a serious marketeer, but I have no problems selling items into the market to make influence, or buying most of the inventions I want at reasonable prices. The battleground in the markets is only for the top 1% most expensive and desirable enhancements, and I'm usually willing to wait for a good opportunity to acquire those. If you don't farm, don't want to learn the market, don't want to marketeer, do want the most expensive items and are an impulse shopper you will probably have difficulty. But that's by design: if its not difficult under those extreme circumstances, its going to be ludicrously trivial everywhere else. ** I've done it myself between I9 and I11, but I got bored of it to be honest *** Yeah, I've done that too, just to see what flippers would do when they were being outstraddled. Some repeat the process, some go away. One or two actually posted rather angry forum posts about it without knowing who did it. **** I haven't specifically done that before, but I have in the past executed strategies designed to break a corner. Ironically, with flipping. Probably one of the most interesting things a marketeer can attempt is to break a cornering attempt without simply swamping the person attempting the corner. |
To be honest I don't understand why we keep telling these people "you are wrong" over and over when we're obviously the minority who has actually taken the time to figure out how this works, realize it's not that hard, and profit off it. If I13 and the accompanying changes to PvP was any indication, the devs don't really listen to the people who understand something well and implement changes based on what people are currently whining about, which has the effect of making the people that liked it before stop liking it, and those that complained before tool around with it a bit before deciding they don't like it either.
I agree with Werner's sentiment. I looked at IO's to extend some 'purpose' to my character beyond just playing him to be awesome. I don't really *care* how long it takes, because I'm already playing a video game. Clearly I have time to waste.
Besides that, playing the market isn't incredibly hard. Buy low, sell high, have patience.
It's really as simple as it sounds.
Maybe if i played 1 toon for a year that'd be possible. My 1st 50 took like 400 hours, i don't care to do that again. Too many options to try out. I like all my toons, but i don't like playing with no powers and i don't likee pre 20-30 play, so what? I make farm toons and TF toons. Each toon i make has a specific reason for making it. Like my GA tank that runs 30mph in GA or my Elec/SD soft capped with 152% rech., stuff like that. So what if i blow thru to 50 in a week? Does that mean there shouldn't be pieces for them on the market? Do i purp each toon? Yes and no but even normal recipes are getting to expensive to pay 50mil each. Unless i want to get air burst or some other crap set that the market doesn't seem to inflate the prices of. And?
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Originally Posted by eryq2
Maybe if i played 1 toon for a year that'd be possible. My 1st 50 took like 400 hours, i don't care to do that again. Too many options to try out. I like all my toons, but i don't like playing with no powers and i don't likee pre 20-30 play, so what? I make farm toons and TF toons. Each toon i make has a specific reason for making it. Like my GA tank that runs 30mph in GA or my Elec/SD soft capped with 152% rech., stuff like that. So what if i blow thru to 50 in a week? Does that mean there shouldn't be pieces for them on the market? Do i purp each toon? Yes and no but even normal recipes are getting to expensive to pay 50mil each. Unless i want to get air burst or some other crap set that the market doesn't seem to inflate the prices of. And?
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*yawn* Gosh, I feel kind of left out. Had yesterday off, and I tend not to check the forums on the weekend. In any case, though I'm aware this has been discussed to death:
Yes, it comes entirely down to laziness.
Or apathy. Or whatever you want to call it. It doesn't even have to have anything to do with the market. It's like demanding anything, that you haven't put any effort into. You could look at any facet of the game and apply the same thing to it. We're just lucky that the market of this game provides about a million different ways to turn a billion. Seriously, if one way isn't working...just go a different way.
BTW, we do give info away all the time. If you want to ignore us, that's on you. And a hearty ell-oh-ell to inf. buyers.
Oh, and this for sure:
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Originally Posted by peterpeter
Yes.
I suppose it should be a badge of honor to be hated by stupid people, but I just find it depressing. I don't expect people to know much about economics, especially if they're only in high school, but so many of the anti-market posts are self-contradictory, illogical, and easily disproven. I used to try to help people, but now I mostly avoid the Market forums. It's just so sad. CoH is only a game, but economics is real. If people can be so confused about the market in a game, then they must be completely helpless when faced with things like their 401(k) plan. Not being able to afford purple recipes is annoying. Not being able to afford retirement, that's tragic. |
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Originally Posted by eryq2
So what if i blow thru to 50 in a week? Does that mean there shouldn't be pieces for them on the market?
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Originally Posted by eryq2
Maybe if i played 1 toon for a year that'd be possible. My 1st 50 took like 400 hours, i don't care to do that again.
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| So what if i blow thru to 50 in a week? Does that mean there shouldn't be pieces for them on the market? Do i purp each toon? Yes and no but even normal recipes are getting to expensive to pay 50mil each. Unless i want to get air burst or some other crap set that the market doesn't seem to inflate the prices of. And? |
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Yes, it absolutely means there shouldn't be pieces for them on the market. Do you understand that people playing the game is how those pieces get there to begin with? People like you are a big part why there are no low-level goods for sale. You want to race to 50 and consume the things others have produced, and you wonder why people are paying 500M inf for one purple. You and all your buds who race to 50 are inflating the number of people with 50s competing for those items. If you're PLing in the AE you're making it even worse, because you aren't producing any purples while you're in there.
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Originally Posted by Nerfherder
inflammatory inflation.
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Originally Posted by eryq2
Maybe if i played 1 toon for a year that'd be possible. My 1st 50 took like 400 hours, i don't care to do that again. Too many options to try out.
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what is the point of having a market / BLACK market if were not suppose to make money off of it? there are other ways of getting a circuit board... you dont have to pay the 1m inf to get it, run an ae mission and click the random salvage
i use the market to make money, sometime, other times i spend a ton of money on the market, i dont complain about the price of an item, if you wait, maybe a day, the price will go down... problem is most people can't wait, so they turn to the forums to cry about it.
-drg
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Originally Posted by eryq2
So what if i blow thru to 50 in a week? Does that mean there shouldn't be pieces for them on the market? Do i purp each toon? Yes and no but even normal recipes are getting to expensive to pay 50mil each. Unless i want to get air burst or some other crap set that the market doesn't seem to inflate the prices of. And?
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