Things that are more difficult redside, and hence more fun.
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2010-02-10 13:25 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Wailers, difficult? Since when? They seem fairly easy to me.
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Alright, I'll give you the point here. I'm sure there won't be any disappearances once Tyrant is tossed out, law (that is ALL law, not just the "bad" ones) is dissolved, and the wars have begun.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The freedom of not having any superpowered loved ones disappear would be quite nice
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Of course, good luck convincing all and sundry that there's anything malevolent about the disappearances, or that they're even occurring at all. And how would you know about anything like this anyway, hm? You're from that lawless dimension after all, there's no end of the shady goings on there. Heck, if there have been any meta-humans going missing, I'll bet YOU kidnapped them, didn't you? POLICE!
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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Removing Tyrant and his henchpeople from power doesn't mean there won't be any laws - it's just the evil laws that will join Tyrant in the trashcan |
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Alright, I'll give you the point here. I'm sure there won't be any disappearances once Tyrant is tossed out, law (that is ALL law, not just the "bad" ones) is dissolved, and the wars have begun.
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| Of course, good luck convincing all and sundry that there's anything malevolent about the disappearances, or that they're even occurring at all. And how would you know about anything like this anyway, hm? |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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. . . which is why I play this.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels. Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies. Elves are glamorous. They project glamour. Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment. Elves are terrific. They beget terror. ... No one ever said elves are nice. Elves are bad. --Terry Pratchett |
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Offtopic, Golden, are you okay? That eye twitch is a bit worrying.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
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Ah but in this case Emperor Cole is the government of Utopia, not to mention the planet. Taking him and his cronies into custody would be like removing the entire presidential succession, and all of Congress to boot. The closest thing to organization left would be whatever the Praetorian Family was called. Not to mention that whole nature abhors a vacuum. Take Tyrant out and a hundred little dictators will do every thing in their power to carve out a piece of Praetoria.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Removing Tyrant and his henchpeople from power doesn't mean there won't be any laws - it's just the evil laws that will join Tyrant in the trashcan
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It would be like when the U.S.S.R. dissolved, but with a lot more bloodshed.
Not to mention that there's still the fact that you and I, as Heroes still represent the "Lawless wilderness" to most of the people of that dimension. We're still fighting a war on Paragon soil against dozens of criminal elements including now four separate illegal militias. The Praetors already won this war, and a couple generation ago to boot. To them you, me and all of Paragon stand for the idea that Peace is Evil. You have to understand that if you work with the Resistance YOU ARE A TERRORIST!
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Removing Tyrant and his thugs will just be the start of the job - Praetorian will need Primal Earth help and protection until they're able to take care of themselves once the numbers of superpowered people recover from Tyrant's mass-murder program.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Now you're talking invasion.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Removing Tyrant and his thugs will just be the start of the job - Praetorian will need Primal Earth help and protection until they're able to take care of themselves once the numbers of superpowered people recover from Tyrant's mass-murder program.
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The more we talk about this, the more you resemble Tyrant. Statesman may be the biological twin of Emperor Cole, but you truly are his intellectual mirror.
Tyrant invaded this world because he saw a society without law, or if there were laws, then there was no one to enforce them. He invaded our lands to bring down our government and replace it with his own. You want to invade because you see a world without freedom, or at least not the same freedoms we have here. You want to invade their city to bring down their government and replace it with our own.
You both will ignore everything except your own very narrow definition of how the world 'should' work. Nothing matters but your own definition of what is evil. And should someone disagree, then all thunder shall rain down upon them. The only difference is he prefers to keep his people safe, and you want to make them free. Whether they want it or not.
Did I think he was right in his actions? No, and I fight him every time he makes his attempts. Do I think you are right in yours? Again, no. But here, I have to wait and hope that we as Heroes don't have the opportunity to engage in Operation: Eden Storm.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
To the whole 'redside is tougher' thing, I'd agree, to a point. There are some things I'd definitely say make that true, but blue has trying sides as well.
Redside:
Mayhem missions: lots of ambushes, which if handled hastily can group up into team-wipe sized longbow squads. Limited time from the get go, and no way to regain time via breaking things after the bank. Far tougher than the blue equivalent.
Buying high-demand recipes. Fewer players mean fewer suppliers, so the prices are high.
Profiting from undesired recipes. In my experience, villains seem to know which sets give the best bonuses. The sets that don't will not sell.
Story Arcs: from 30 to 50, it's difficult to find an arc that doesn't end with an EB/AV/Hero fight. There are also several even as early as Port Oakes.
Undersized strike force teams: many of the villain strike forces have a finale that is far more complex that just an AV, so finishing with less than the full starting group is tough.
'Epic' pools: The patron pools have a story arc requirement, rather than simply hitting the correct level and choosing a power.
Finding teams: this is less of a problem than people say, in my experience, but requires more action than simply setting a 'LFT' flag. The people who are on are less often on a full team, and seem rather accepting.
Enemies: Villains face tougher foes faster, and more consistently. They fight the same groups heroes do, but with tougher additions, (Cot get confusing/slowing/debuffing enemies, Freaks get mresurecting foes, etc.) With the addition of the new groups (Longbow, PPD) that carry potent buff/debuff enemies alongside high damage and good survival.
Harder blueside:
Profit from high demand sets: villains just pay more.
Enduring story arcs: they go on some time, and often send characters to many areas in order to complete tasks that can be highly repetitive. The finale is usually a couple lines of dialogue, so the sense of gratification from the finale is lessened.
Enduring task forces: They may be easier to finish at the end, but man does getting to that end take time, lessening the sense of movement through the story.
Soloing: the of the hero archetypes, 5 out of the seven are designed to work best on a team.
Flexibility: I don't know why, but it's just easier to 'go with it' villainside, as far as team builds go. I just meet a lot of heroes who have a set formula they stick to.
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This sounds frightfully similar to real-world events which should have ended years ago but are still ongoing.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Praetorian will need Primal Earth help and protection until they're able to take care of themselves
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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No - replace it with a democratic Paretorian government. |
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
You want to invade their city to bring down their government and replace it with our own.
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| The only difference is he prefers to keep his people safe, and you want to make them free. Whether they want it or not. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Something tells me there's not going to be much of Utopia's government left once you're done telling them what laws are 'evil'.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
No - replace it with a democratic Paretorian government.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Not make them free - give them the choice to be free
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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I'm going to quote myself here, because this post is just increasing the similarity:
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
No - replace it with a democratic Paretorian government.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
This sounds frightfully similar to real-world events which should have ended years ago but are still ongoing.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Well, the secret police, the mind readers, disappearances, and the mass murders will have to go - otherwise, it's not really a utopia then, is it? |
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Something tells me there's not going to be much of Utopia's government left once you're done telling them what laws are 'evil'.
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| Let me guess, live free or die? |
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| You do realize that only works when the people don't LIKE their government, right? |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Actually, your actions have proven that they don't. Because they've already seen if they don't govern themselves the way you want them to, you'll just come in, smash everything up, and upend their lives again.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Well, the secret police, the mind readers, disappearances, and the mass murders will have to go - otherwise, it's not really a utopia then, is it?
No - just have the choice to decide how they want to govern themselves. When people are being mind-read by a dictatorship, it's kind hard to get an honest opinion about the dictatorship |
And you've still not commented on the two big points on these 'disappearances'.
1) You have no proof. The only thing you have is a rumor started by Anarchists. I have no doubt that we have the same rumors in Paragon. How many times have meta-humans gone missing in the various arcs? I can almost guarantee that there are people that claim that at least some of these are the result of government plot. Hell, after seeing how eager you are to destroy a world based on a rumor it wouldn't surprise me to hear OUR criminal groups try to start a couple of these just to get you on their side.
2) If we get proof, we still need numbers. There's one thing you can NOT deny: Their method of crime fighting works. Ours doesn't. Heck we joke about how much of a revolving door the Zig is. The big question is: Is the Utopian government killing more people than criminals do here?
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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They already did. They overthrew their old government in order to establish their current one.| No - just have the choice to decide how they want to govern themselves. |
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| When people are being mind-read by a dictatorship, it's kind harda to get an honest opinion about the dictatorship |
It can only be concluded that the citizenry of Praetoria - perhaps not as a whole, but within a very, very overwhelmingly large majority - think that everything is just grand.
Quite frankly, if you head into Praetoria with yours plans, your ideals, your beliefs? You will be branded as a member of the lunatic fringe, a borderline anarchist. You're image would be one of a seeker of destruction and mayhem, of civil collapse. These people LIKE their system, their ignorance and questionable governing tactics aside. You can't actually win them over without HARD evidence that implicates the ENTIRE government, not just a single member of it - That includes Emperor Cole. Merely overthrowing him just makes the way for, say, the coincidentally entirely innocent Antimatter, or the reknowned and benevolent engineer, Neuron.
And then what? Assuming you can SOMEHOW convince the majority of the population via incriminating evidence against the entire foundation upon which their government is established, what are you going to do? Just say, "Ok! Pick the bits you don't like and toss them out!" That. Would. Not. Work. Because the bad bits are, sadly but inevitably, the bits that make the rest of the system work, because the system was built to support the bad bits from the ground up. You would essentially be creating a MASSIVE power vacuum, throwing everything into disarray in the process, and effectively be creating utter anarchy. Even the Resistance would be entirely ineffectual here - Even if you incriminate the government they oppose, they are still just a bunch of lunatics who may have, in their own crazy way, been right. That is not going to make people listen to them. The Resistance would still be viewed as a terrorist orginization in the event of the government's collapse.
Oh, and in the meantime? The Devouring Earth has taken advantage of all of this and is retaking the world. Have fun with THAT mess.
We can all agree that the way things are in Praetoria are fundementally WRONG, but your method of fixing the problem would just make things even worse.
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They can choose whatever government they like - as long as they always have the option of chaning it - that's the way democracy works |
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Actually, your actions have proven that they don't. Because they've already seen if they don't govern themselves the way you want them to, you'll just come in, smash everything up, and upend their lives again.
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And you've still not commented on the two big points on these 'disappearances'. 1) You have no proof. The only thing you have is a rumor started by Anarchists. I have no doubt that we have the same rumors in Paragon. How many times have meta-humans gone missing in the various arcs? I can almost guarantee that there are people that claim that at least some of these are the result of government plot. Hell, after seeing how eager you are to destroy a world based on a rumor it wouldn't surprise me to hear OUR criminal groups try to start a couple of these just to get you on their side. |
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| 2) If we get proof, we still need numbers. There's one thing you can NOT deny: Their method of crime fighting works. Ours doesn't. Heck we joke about how much of a revolving door the Zig is. The big question is: Is the Utopian government killing more people than criminals do here? |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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So in other words you can have any government you want, as long as it's American government.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
They can choose whatever government they like - as long as they always have the option of changing it - that's the way democracy works
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The Hero Con panel?
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When the method of crime fighting itself becomes a crime, then you've already lost
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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And they knew exactly how it was going to turn out? |
Originally Posted by Paradigm_Shift
They already did. They overthrew their old government in order to establish their current one.
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Incorrect. That actually implies that the majority of the population genuinely believes that the so-called dictatorship is actually an entirely legitimate and effective form of government. Regular civilians still form the bulk of the population in a world of super-powered beings, regular citizens who, E.G., cannot prevent their minds from being read. What we have here is the mind police, their main targets CANNOT resist them, and yet there is still a standing population. It can only be concluded that the citizenry of Praetoria - perhaps not as a whole, but within a very, very overwhelmingly large majority - think that everything is just grand. |
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| Quite frankly, if you head into Praetoria with yours plans, your ideals, your beliefs? You will be branded as a member of the lunatic fringe, a borderline anarchist. You're image would be one of a seeker of destruction and mayhem, of civil collapse. These people LIKE their system, their ignorance and questionable governing tactics aside. You can't actually win them over without HARD evidence that implicates the ENTIRE government, not just a single member of it - That includes Emperor Cole. Merely overthrowing him just makes the way for, say, the coincidentally entirely innocent Antimatter, or the reknowned and benevolent engineer, Neuron. |
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| And then what? Assuming you can SOMEHOW convince the majority of the population via incriminating evidence against the entire foundation upon which their government is established, what are you going to do? Just say, "Ok! Pick the bits you don't like and toss them out!" That. Would. Not. Work. Because the bad bits are, sadly but inevitably, the bits that make the rest of the system work, because the system was built to support the bad bits from the ground up. You would essentially be creating a MASSIVE power vacuum, throwing everything into disarray in the process, and effectively be creating utter anarchy. Even the Resistance would be entirely ineffectual here - Even if you incriminate the government they oppose, they are still just a bunch of lunatics who may have, in their own crazy way, been right. That is not going to make people listen to them. The Resistance would still be viewed as a terrorist orginization in the event of the government's collapse. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Too much talking!!! Not enough fighting!!!
In the Arena of Logic, I fight unarmed.
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Well, not just American - any democratic system is ok.|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
So in other words you can have any government you want, as long as it's American government.
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| Doesn't even enter into it. Or do you regularly act based on what spirits from another world tell you? |
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| Somehow I doubt there's any law on the Utopian books against the Seers. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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So, when are we invading China?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Well, not just American - any democratic system is ok.
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When they're god-like beings capable of changing the entire universe, then yes, I do
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Well, nothing the enforcers of dictatorship do would be illegal under the laws of the dictatorship, would they?
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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That's not up to me to decide |
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
So, when are we invading China?
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| So, this is a religious crusade for you? Then that explains the complete lack of logic or reason. |
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| If there's no law against it, it's not a crime. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Doubtful. It seems that all of their work on the story of GR is revolving around shades of grey.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
By the end of the 1-20 content, they'll ALL be shown to be evil
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Just like the real world, nobody is truly evil or truly good. Even Gandhi was racist.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
"And we will overthrow the cold tyrant and we will usher in a new age of enlightenment and fraternity and humanism and Ankh-Morpork will become a Utopia and people like Brother Plasterer will be roasted over slow fires if I have any say in the matter, which I will." (Pratchett, Guards, Guards)
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." (Lord Vetinari, same book)
'They think they want good government and justice for all, Vimes, yet what is it they really crave, deep in their hearts? Only that things go on as normal and tomorrow is pretty much like today.'
-------Lord Vetinari (Terry Pratchett, Feet of Clay)