Things that are more difficult redside, and hence more fun.


Afterimage

 

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And they knew exactly how it was going to turn out?
No, but by their perspective, it's turned out fine.

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So brainwashing and propaganda have nothing to do with it?
On the contrary. However, it's somewhat irrelevant. The problem is convincing the populace given the methods being used to prevent just that. There are no means, no methods, elaborate or finely planned enough, small or large scale, that can undermine the opinions of the majority in Praetoria without also undermining order and social contract. The brainwashing and propoganda just serve as even further proof that your idea of liberating the Praetorian people would end in disaster. :P

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That's why Primal Earth heroes would be there to help them establish a proper government and fight the DE for them.
Nope. You emphasize that the people would have the freedom to establish their own government. It's none of our concern. You are welcome to help, but by your comments thus far, you would be entirely intolerant of any system that is not purely democratic in nature. Never mind that democracy is awesome - if the people want something else, who do you think you are to deny them that?

Oh, and of course, you are allowed to assume that with the ongoing (albeit weakened) invasion forces of the Rikti, the return of the 5th Column, the looming threat of the Coming Storm, etcetera, etcetera, there will be enough heroes left over to aid the Praetorians, BOTH in establishing a new government AND fighting back the DE. That's fine - Given the state of world affairs in-game, that is entirely reasonable. Which is why the villains will be just as free to have their own merry way with the place. And one thing that has been proven over and over throughout both games - Good and evil are locked in a perpetual stalemate. For every effort that is made to counteract the DE and to establish a government? An equally large effort, if not larger, will be put into either weakening said government, the remainder of the populace, the Primal heroes, and of course, the establishment of additional threats. And that is just the villains from primal Earth. You forget the ones already present in Praetoria.

ONE world of super-heroes is NOT enough to support TWO worlds of super-powered threats.


 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
That's not up to me to decide
And this comment can be considered proof that only a specific form of government will be deemed acceptable.

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It' not religious - it's a crusade for freedom
You want to invade a sovereign government based solely on mysterious signs and portents from some spooky all seeing deity that some how gives you the right to ignore a little thing like PROBABLE CAUSE. You sill have no evidence, and no reason to attack this government out side of your 'holy texts' that say the government is evil.

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It can still be a crime against normal human morality
You still have to prove it.

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
So brainwashing and propaganda have nothing to do with it?
Probably not, since these people have grown up without crime or homelessness or war.

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By the end of the 1-20 content, they'll ALL be shown to be evil
There needs to be evidence at the start, or it's an open act of war.


The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.

Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?

A: You crash into another one.

 

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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper View Post
Doubtful. It seems that all of their work on the story of GR is revolving around shades of grey.
So the devs saying things like "it's not the Resistance that's the threat, it's Tyrant", "Cole is a tyrant", and refering to his government as a "totalitarian regime", and Chimera, as head of the secret police, being responsible for more murders than the rest of Tyrant's enforcers put together, along with the mass murder of thousands of superpowered people and any of their familes that wondered where they'd disappeared to, and saying they used books like "1984" as inspiration for Praetoria doesn't sort of hint a little bit about the true nature of the Praetorian government?


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
So the devs saying things like "it's not the Resistance that's the threat, it's Tyrant", "Cole is a tyrant", and referring to his government as a "totalitarian regime", and Chimera, as head of the secret police, being responsible for more murders than the rest of Tyrant's enforcers put together, along with the mass murder of thousands of super powered people and any of their families that wondered where they'd disappeared to, and saying they used books like "1984" as inspiration for Praetoria doesn't sort of hint a little bit about the true nature of the Praetorian government?
To the player, yes. However, for the characters this is still nothing more than a religious nut saying "My god says these people are evil! Go ransack their world!"


The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.

Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?

A: You crash into another one.

 

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Originally Posted by Paradigm_Shift View Post
No, but by their perspective, it's turned out fine.
Not for the people who've disappeared

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On the contrary. However, it's somewhat irrelevant. The problem is convincing the populace given the methods being used to prevent just that. There are no means, no methods, elaborate or finely planned enough, small or large scale, that can undermine the opinions of the majority in Praetoria without also undermining order and social contract. The brainwashing and propoganda just serve as even further proof that your idea of liberating the Praetorian people would end in disaster. :P
No one said it was going to be easy to topple Tyrant

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Nope. You emphasize that the people would have the freedom to establish their own government. It's none of our concern. You are welcome to help, but by your comments thus far, you would be entirely intolerant of any system that is not purely democratic in nature. Never mind that democracy is awesome - if the people want something else, who do you think you are to deny them that?
They can have any system they like - as long as it allows for a system change.

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Oh, and of course, you are allowed to assume that with the ongoing (albeit weakened) invasion forces of the Rikti, the return of the 5th Column, the looming threat of the Coming Storm, etcetera, etcetera, there will be enough heroes left over to aid the Praetorians, BOTH in establishing a new government AND fighting back the DE. That's fine - Given the state of world affairs in-game, that is entirely reasonable. Which is why the villains will be just as free to have their own merry way with the place. And one thing that has been proven over and over throughout both games - Good and evil are locked in a perpetual stalemate. For every effort that is made to counteract the DE and to establish a government? An equally large effort, if not larger, will be put into either weakening said government, the remainder of the populace, the Primal heroes, and of course, the establishment of additional threats. And that is just the villains from primal Earth. You forget the ones already present in Praetoria.

ONE world of super-heroes is NOT enough to support TWO worlds of super-powered threats.
It won't take long before there are enough Praetorian superpowered people to defend their own world - just need to stop the mass murder of them by Tyrant


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms View Post
To the player, yes. However, for the characters this is still nothing more than a religious nut saying "My god says these people are evil! Go ransack their world!"
I was giving an out-of-game explaination


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
I was giving an out-of-game explaination
OK, now give an in game one. Show me proof.


The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.

Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?

A: You crash into another one.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
So the devs saying things like "it's not the Resistance that's the threat, it's Tyrant", "Cole is a tyrant", and refering to his government as a "totalitarian regime", and Chimera, as head of the secret police, being responsible for more murders than the rest of Tyrant's enforcers put together, along with the mass murder of thousands of superpowered people and any of their familes that wondered where they'd disappeared to, and saying they used books like "1984" as inspiration for Praetoria doesn't sort of hint a little bit about the true nature of the Praetorian government?
On the other hand, the devs have also said things like "It's great to live in Praetoria" and "The Resistance is a small group of weirdos who don't like Emperor Cole for some strange reason". The people live without fear, and everyone has excellent amenities. Nobody needs to do manual labor (the Clockwork take care of that), and life is good.

Also, WRT forcing democracy upon Praetoria:
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.


http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

 

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Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms View Post
And this comment can be considered proof that only a specific form of government will be deemed acceptable.
Sort of - any system that doesn't offer people the choice of what government thy want is unacceptable

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You want to invade a sovereign government based solely on mysterious signs and portents from some spooky all seeing deity that some how gives you the right to ignore a little thing like PROBABLE CAUSE. You sill have no evidence, and no reason to attack this government out side of your 'holy texts' that say the government is evil.
The cause of freedom is holy - in a non-religous sort of way

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You still have to prove it.
Of course - that's what the 1-20 content is for

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Probably not, since these people have grown up without crime or homelessness or war.
The thousands of disappeared superpowered people and their families seem to have not been given the chance to continue growing.

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There needs to be evidence at the start, or it's an open act of war.
The start will involve infiltration rather than open war, I think


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms View Post
OK, now give an in game one. Show me proof.
Have to wait for the 1-20 content for that


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

I liked this thread better when it was actually about what it was about.


 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
The thousands of disappeared superpowered people and their families seem to have not been given the chance to continue growing.
What are you talking about? Those heroes have been deployed around the world to combat the Devouring Earth menace, and our great Emperor Cole has graciously allowed their families to join them.


http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Have to wait for the 1-20 content for that
Wrong. You have to prove it BEFORE you start the 1-20 content, or you are Tyrants equal in action, as well as thought.


The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.

Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?

A: You crash into another one.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper View Post
On the other hand, the devs have also said things like "It's great to live in Praetoria" and "The Resistance is a small group of weirdos who don't like Emperor Cole for some strange reason". The people live without fear, and everyone has excellent amenities. Nobody needs to do manual labor (the Clockwork take care of that), and life is good.
That was when they were RPing

Once the panel started taking questions, they gave the non-RP answers


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by Redoubtable View Post
I liked this thread better when it was actually about what it was about.
You mean when it was about TCS's constant whine about people playing blueside?


http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

 

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Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms View Post
Wrong. You have to prove it BEFORE you start the 1-20 content, or you are Tyrants equal in action, as well as thought.
Not really - if a Resistance member or distress call from them reaches Primal Earth, Statesman and the other heroes are duty-bound to investigate it.
Obviously, they wouldn't just go crashing in there - they have to see who was asking for help, if it was genuine and so on - and as Paretoria is a poweful world, kicking off a war with them right away while the Rikti are still causing trouble here probably wouldn't be sensible - so I'm sure Statesman will suggest other heroes infiltrate Praetoria and bring back a full report on the situation there


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Spies and subterfuge, eh? Well, that may work in comics, where masked vigilantes are apart from any government, but in Paragon City we're legitimate badge carrying members of the police force. We are acting as an agent of our government and have to follow the rules when we enter foreign ground, INCLUDING extra-dimentional ones. Which means no snooping. So we can't get our proof that way.


The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.

Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?

A: You crash into another one.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms View Post
Spies and subterfuge, eh? Well, that may work in comics, where masked vigilantes are apart from any government, but in Paragon City we're legitimate badge carrying members of the police force. We are acting as an agent of our government and have to follow the rules when we enter foreign ground, INCLUDING extra-dimentional ones. Which means no snooping. So we can't get our proof that way.
Actually, we can
Cops go undercover to catch criminals, so super-cops go undercover to catch super-criminals - and they don't come much more super-criminal-ish than a mass-murdering super-dictator


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Actually, we can
Cops go undercover to catch criminals, so super-cops go undercover to catch super-criminals - and they don't come much more super-criminal-ish than a mass-murdering super-dictator
They go undercover WITHIN OUR OWN BORDERS. Utopia is out of our jurisdiction, plain and simple.


The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.

Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?

A: You crash into another one.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Cops go undercover to catch criminals, so super-cops go undercover to catch super-criminals
Cops can't do anything outside their own jurisdiction.


http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper View Post
Cops can't do anything outside their own jurisdiction.
The multiverse is our jurisdiction


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

How do you figure?


http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms View Post
They go undercover WITHIN OUR OWN BORDERS. Utopia is out of our jurisdiction, plain and simple.
Primal Earth faces multi-dimensional threats, so our intel gathering has to cover other dimensions too


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper View Post
How do you figure?
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
See above
Her Hero-Con gods told her.

What you don't realize GG, is that any of those worlds, had they a standing government left, could actually and successfully accuse our government of a number of crimes, up to and including acts of war.


The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.

Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?

A: You crash into another one.