Things that are more difficult redside, and hence more fun.
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2010-02-10 13:25 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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You mean:|
Originally Posted by srmalloy
If they weren't wide enough for people to crawl through, then all the time and money spent putting in the sensors, diverters, the overpressure pulse generators, and the digesters would go to waste. You see, you let the resistance sneak into the building via the ventilation ducts, then, once inside, the diverters close off the regular duct connections and open the shafts to the digesters, then the overpressure generators send massive pressure waves through the ducts to blow the intruders into the digester shafts, where they're chewed up and turned into fertilizer.
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Chimera: Wait, aren't you even gonna watch them? They could get away.
Tyrant: No, no, no - I'm going to leave them alone and not actually witness them dying, I'm just gonna assume it all went to plan. What?
Chimera: I have a bow in my room. You give me 5 seconds, I'll get it. I'll come back down here, BOOM! I'll blow their brains out!
Tyrant: Justin, you just don't get it, do ya? You don't.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Rather than cause more problems elsewhere, I'm going to try to contain the mess that I caused here to this thread. Yes, in the end I am still planning on buying Going Rogue at present, however I'm not bothering with the pre-order. Even ignoring the content of GR, The power sets are cool, the functionality of Vigilante and Rogue characters still holds my interest.
However, pessimist though I may be I still hold out hope for the story, that Hero 1's comment was a mistake, and what he meant was antagonist, not out right evil. A Well Intentioned Extremist is how I would have pegged Cole at the get go, and what he may yet be. Antagonist, but one Heroes could actually find themselves agreeing with, rather than the Complete Monster Golden Girl would paint him.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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Not quite sure how you could interpret that quote as a mistake - it was quite deliberate |
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
However, pessimist though I may be I still hold out hope for the story, that Hero 1's comment was a mistake, and what he meant was antagonist, not out right evil. A Well Intentioned Extremist is how I would have pegged Cole at the get go, and what he may yet be. Antagonist, but one Heroes could actually find themselves agreeing with, rather than the Complete Monster Golden Girl would paint him.
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Also, Tyrant doesn't have to be a complete monster to be evil
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
stop arguing with golden girls.
SHE IS THE VOICE OF TRUTH!
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I really hate to disagree with you, Abrahms, but considering the implication of the relationship between Tyrant and Dominatrix (as evidenced by her description), I'm more inclined to believe he truly is a Complete Monster and that this whole whitewashed world really is only a few years old...|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
However, pessimist though I may be I still hold out hope for the story, that Hero 1's comment was a mistake, and what he meant was antagonist, not out right evil. A Well Intentioned Extremist is how I would have pegged Cole at the get go, and what he may yet be. Antagonist, but one Heroes could actually find themselves agreeing with, rather than the Complete Monster Golden Girl would paint him.
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They do have a psychic network led by Mayhem to police the thoughts of the populace, after all. Perhaps this whole background is a lie cooked up by Tyrant and his cronies in the past year or so to solidify their rule.
But then, we haven't had a chance to see it in person yet. Speculation may be fun, but it's ultimately pointless.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
Interestingly, they don't appear to be retconning their relationship - they mentioned at Hero Con that it was a minefield they were tiptoeing though when writing stories about the pair of them - so it looks like we'll be getting more info on them than just what it says in her bio.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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"The world you know it is a lie."?
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Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
I really hate to disagree with you, Abrahms, but considering the implication of the relationship between Tyrant and Dominatrix (as evidenced by her description), I'm more inclined to believe he truly is a Complete Monster and that this whole whitewashed world really is only a few years old...
They do have a psychic network led by Mayhem to police the thoughts of the populace, after all. Perhaps this whole background is a lie cooked up by Tyrant and his cronies in the past year or so to solidify their rule. But then, we haven't had a chance to see it in person yet. Speculation may be fun, but it's ultimately pointless. |
In the Arena of Logic, I fight unarmed.
By the way, there's another little sliver of hope for the Tyrant-just-needs-a-hug people - if the idea of double agents mentioned in that old NCSoft marketing survey is used in GR, then a loyalist could still end up in Paragon City as a spy or scout for Tyrant's invasion.
Or the final choice of a loyalist before they leave for primal Earth could see them chose between going to Paragon City, which seems closer to the "utopia" they're leaving than the Rogue Isles, as there'd be another Marcus Cole there - or they could choose to go to the Rogue Isles, as its ruler and style of govenrment would be a closer to match to their own.
And for the Resistance, it could be the oppostie - like if you've spent years fighing against Emperor Cole and his superpowered enforcers, finding out that one of your potential destinations on Primal Earth was a city where another Marcus Cole lived, along with a quite heavy superpowered military presence on the street in the shape of Longbow, then you might just decide that the Rogue Isles was a better bet - especially if you heard that a woman called Belladonna was in a position of power there
So while it wouldn't change the framework of Tyrant being the bad guy, it'd take into account the possible ways that the Praetorians might view Primal Earth.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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That doesn't makie him a monster. It makes him a deviant of your social values, what if a Rikti Traditionalist Ambassador devoted to making peace between humanity and the Rikti and ushering in a new era of peaceful coexitence and trade broguht his granddaughter with him just like a human would bring his wife because it's socially acceptable amongst the Rikti. Would you burn him at the stake and call him a monster?|
Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
I really hate to disagree with you, Abrahms, but considering the implication of the relationship between Tyrant and Dominatrix (as evidenced by her description), I'm more inclined to believe he truly is a Complete Monster and that this whole whitewashed world really is only a few years old...
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Consequently, you can't call Tyrant a monster just because of that. You could call him slightly disturbed, but just because you do that, especially if it's completely consensual, you aren't evil.
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Not quite sure how you could interpret that quote as a mistake - it was quite deliberate Also, Tyrant doesn't have to be a complete monster to be evil |
Bad Voodoo by @Beyond Reach. Arc ID #373659. Level 20-24. Mr. Bocor has fallen victim to a group of hooded vigilantes who have been plaguing Port Oakes, interfering with illegal operations and pacifying villain's powers. He demands that revenge is taken on these miscreants and his powers are returned! You look like just the villain for the job. Challenging.
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Yes. Yes I would.|
Originally Posted by BeyondReach
That doesn't makie him a monster. It makes him a deviant of your social values, what if a Rikti Traditionalist Ambassador devoted to making peace between humanity and the Rikti and ushering in a new era of peaceful coexitence and trade broguht his granddaughter with him just like a human would bring his wife because it's socially acceptable amongst the Rikti. Would you burn him at the stake and call him a monster?
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| Consequently, you can't call Tyrant a monster just because of that. You could call him slightly disturbed, but just because you do that, especially if it's completely consensual, you aren't evil. |
One would need to be completely morally void to entertain your notion with any seriousness. Even with a passing understanding of biology, one would know the propensity for defects in such a pairing.
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| Is a man whose only motivation is to kept the entire earth in a state of perpetual harmony where there is no war, no conflict and no one has want of anything evil? |
It's not what a man intends. It's what he does. That goes for women, too.
Want to see a world without war? Aim a telescope at Venus or Mars. Mercury, too. Pluto, Neptune, Uranus... There's one thing each of these worlds has in common... They are devoid of sentient life.
To accomplish the same thing on Praetorian Earth, a planet that essentially had the same history as Prime Earth until Marcus Cole gained his powers, and keep sentient life going, Tyrant would have had to do some drastic things (hence the assumption that all potential usurpers have been eliminated, if not reindoctrinated). We have the "Hamidon story" to explain how he was able to come to power, but it's a story that seems fishy (especially since their Hamidon doesn't have the power of the Huntsman to back itself up).
When one is accused with the notion that "the ends justify the means," it is NOT a positive accusation. It's a phrase that questions the price paid for a product that could easily not be what it appears to be.
In the current incarnations of the Praetorians, we've been shown depraved individuals who have done terrible, terrible things. They have laid waste to their world(s), and have shown not only a lack of remorse, but glee and satisfaction with their actions and behavior. They abuse their power and their positions of authority.
Nineteen Eighty-Four taught us to look for these signs. I believe George Orwell would be disturbed by how quickly people are willing to bow down to it all.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
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Do not believe what the scientists tell you. The natural history we know is a lie, a falsehood sold to us by wicked old men who would make the world a dull gray prison and protect us from the dangers inherent to freedom. They would have you believe our planet to be a lonely starship, hurtling through the void of space, barren of magic and in need of a stern hand upon the rudder.|
Originally Posted by Gulver
"The world you know it is a lie."?
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Close your mind to their deception. The time before our time was not a time of senseless natural struggle and reptilian rage, but a time of myth and socery. It was a time of legend, when heroes walked Creation and wielded the very power of the gods. It was a time before the world was bent, a time before the magic of Creation lessened, a time before the souls of men became the stunted, withered things they are today.
(Edit: Also, I just realized yesterday that the guy that first introduced me to Exalted is now "Balseraph", one of the Champions Online devs. I hung out with him every summer for 3 years when I was in high school.)
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Or the final choice of a loyalist before they leave for primal Earth could see them chose between going to Paragon City, which seems closer to the "utopia" they're leaving than the Rogue Isles, as there'd be another Marcus Cole there - or they could choose to go to the Rogue Isles, as its ruler and style of govenrment would be a closer to match to their own.
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Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
I don't do that. Just about every civilization throughout history has abhorred that. Instances of it happening throughout history are always instances of deviance committed by the insane, those abusing their power, or a combination of the two. The examples would not pose as positive depictions of your argument.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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I think they´re going to dial back on the "mine is an evil laugh" stuff, otheriwse, there´d be not much difference between them and Recluse |
Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
In the current incarnations of the Praetorians, we've been shown depraved individuals who have done terrible, terrible things. They have laid waste to their world(s), and have shown not only a lack of remorse, but glee and satisfaction with their actions and behavior. They abuse their power and their positions of authority.
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The evil in Paretoria will be more subtle at first, and harder to see
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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But is someone like, say, Doctor Aeon really that strong, or is he just the best at what he does?|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
The Rogue Isles don't really have a similar government structure to Praetoria. Praetoria is a meritocracy - the best in each field holds power in the field. The Rogue Isles is social darwinism - the strongest hold the power.
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And is someone like Westin Phipps even superpowered at all?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
(Emphasis mine.)
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I defy you to prove this statement. Seeing as you are the one asserting an absolute statement such as this to be completely truthful...
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Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
Instances of it happening throughout history are always instances of deviance committed by the insane, those abusing their power, or a combination of the two. The examples would not pose as positive depictions of your argument.
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An anonymous bird did let me know that the phrase "in all capacities" has many interpretations, which will be a valued fact when they add more to the story but don't want the ESRB be to "OMGENCEST!"
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Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
I really hate to disagree with you, Abrahms, but considering the implication of the relationship between Tyrant and Dominatrix (as evidenced by her description), I'm more inclined to believe he truly is a Complete Monster and that this whole whitewashed world really is only a few years old...
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Doctor Aeon is strong... with SCIENCE!|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But is someone like, say, Doctor Aeon really that strong, or is he just the best at what he does?
And is someone like Westin Phipps even superpowered at all? |
And Phipps is... the proprietor of a homeless shelter.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Doctor Aeon is strong... with SCIENCE!
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But is he actually stronger than the people working under him?
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| And Phipps is... the proprietor of a homeless shelter. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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No, not really. But his is a special situation, given his history. The only power he has is from his agreement with Recluse, which amounts to "Work for me or die, and it won't be in a good way."|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
[/B]
But is he actually stronger than the people working under him? |
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But important in his own way to Arachnos, I'm sure - because he's the best at what he does
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
PVE is difficult?
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I honestly consider Phipps to be by far the most evil contact in the game. The actual things he does can be considered petty, but the idea behind it - that he goes out of his way to destroy any pathetic hope that exists in the hearts of the weakest that the world can be a better place, and that there are people in authority who approve of him doing so - is absolutely blood chilling, and far more frightening than any random megalomaniac out to conquer the world with his robot legions or whatever (yes, Lord Nemesis, I'm looking at you...)|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Actually, the big complaint about Phipps is that he's NOT important. None of the stuff he does has any real meaning except for petty villainy. If anyone in Arachnos is "mustache twirling" evil, it's Phipps, not Recluse. And to top it all off, he's not really good at it either. The only reason he's in the 40+ bracket is that his homeless shelter is stationed in the slums of Grandville.
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He's not a nutter like Dr. Creed or doing it for the evulz like Peter Themari. He kicks puppies because the people in power have decided that puppies need to be kicked as a matter of policy.
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Oh, he's evil no doubt. He's just not important, or powerful.
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Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
I honestly consider Phipps to be by far the most evil contact in the game. The actual things he does can be considered petty, but the idea behind it - that he goes out of his way to destroy any pathetic hope that exists in the hearts of the weakest that the world can be a better place, and that there are people in authority who approve of him doing so - is absolutely blood chilling, and far more frightening than any random megalomaniac out to conquer the world with his robot legions or whatever (yes, Lord Nemesis, I'm looking at you...)
He's not a nutter like Dr. Creed or doing it for the evulz like Peter Themari. He kicks puppies because the people in power have decided that puppies need to be kicked as a matter of policy. |
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
I honestly consider Phipps to be by far the most evil contact in the game. The actual things he does can be considered petty, but the idea behind it - that he goes out of his way to destroy any pathetic hope that exists in the hearts of the weakest that the world can be a better place, and that there are people in authority who approve of him doing so - is absolutely blood chilling, and far more frightening than any random megalomaniac out to conquer the world with his robot legions or whatever (yes, Lord Nemesis, I'm looking at you...)
He's not a nutter like Dr. Creed or doing it for the evulz like Peter Themari. He kicks puppies because the people in power have decided that puppies need to be kicked as a matter of policy. |
i hate Phipps.
HE is Evil.
tyrant just fascist pig (more gray than evil)
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Ok. So you're condemning another sentient lifeform or similar intelligence to a human to a painful and horrible death just for doing something it's race has done for millenia that does not harm a living soul. Who's the monster now?|
Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
Yes. Yes I would.
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I don't do that. Just about every civilization throughout history has abhorred that. Instances of it happening throughout history are always instances of deviance committed by the insane, those abusing their power, or a combination of the two. The examples would not pose as positive depictions of your argument. One would need to be completely morally void to entertain your notion with any seriousness. Even with a passing understanding of biology, one would know the propensity for defects in such a pairing. |
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| Stalin wanted peace and stability. Does that mean we can excuse him for the mass executions and the gulags? |
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It's not what a man intends. It's what he does. That goes for women, too. Want to see a world without war? Aim a telescope at Venus or Mars. Mercury, too. Pluto, Neptune, Uranus... There's one thing each of these worlds has in common... They are devoid of sentient life. To accomplish the same thing on Praetorian Earth, a planet that essentially had the same history as Prime Earth until Marcus Cole gained his powers, and keep sentient life going, Tyrant would have had to do some drastic things (hence the assumption that all potential usurpers have been eliminated, if not reindoctrinated). We have the "Hamidon story" to explain how he was able to come to power, but it's a story that seems fishy (especially since their Hamidon doesn't have the power of the Huntsman to back itself up). When one is accused with the notion that "the ends justify the means," it is NOT a positive accusation. It's a phrase that questions the price paid for a product that could easily not be what it appears to be. In the current incarnations of the Praetorians, we've been shown depraved individuals who have done terrible, terrible things. They have laid waste to their world(s), and have shown not only a lack of remorse, but glee and satisfaction with their actions and behavior. They abuse their power and their positions of authority. Nineteen Eighty-Four taught us to look for these signs. I believe George Orwell would be disturbed by how quickly people are willing to bow down to it all. |
As for the - let's face it - previous incarnations of the Praetorians, they are irrelevant.
Bad Voodoo by @Beyond Reach. Arc ID #373659. Level 20-24. Mr. Bocor has fallen victim to a group of hooded vigilantes who have been plaguing Port Oakes, interfering with illegal operations and pacifying villain's powers. He demands that revenge is taken on these miscreants and his powers are returned! You look like just the villain for the job. Challenging.
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Although I have not played Westin Phipps' missions, from that explanation I can say that he sounds like a terrified little man. No doubt, he's evil down to the bone, but I imagine the reasons he does what he does are that he's afraid that the world might change from his cynical perception of it. His actions to crush hope intrinsically themselves say that there must be hope, and that hope he is afraid of.
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Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
I honestly consider Phipps to be by far the most evil contact in the game. The actual things he does can be considered petty, but the idea behind it - that he goes out of his way to destroy any pathetic hope that exists in the hearts of the weakest that the world can be a better place, and that there are people in authority who approve of him doing so - is absolutely blood chilling, and far more frightening than any random megalomaniac out to conquer the world with his robot legions or whatever (yes, Lord Nemesis, I'm looking at you...)
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Bad Voodoo by @Beyond Reach. Arc ID #373659. Level 20-24. Mr. Bocor has fallen victim to a group of hooded vigilantes who have been plaguing Port Oakes, interfering with illegal operations and pacifying villain's powers. He demands that revenge is taken on these miscreants and his powers are returned! You look like just the villain for the job. Challenging.
And yet in Praetoria he is a Loyalist. Why? Well, growing up in Praetoria he saw the paradise that the world was in comparison the horror and destruction it had gone through for the past untold millenia. He looked at Primal Earth and all he saw another age of the suffering of man.
He knows what Tyrant does to keep his people safe, he knows the work of the Psychic Friends Network and the Powers Department, but he sees a world-encompassing utopia where people are murdered in the dark as far superior to a world where 1/3 of the world live in quiet comfort while 2/3 of the world live in squalor, being murdered in plain sight.
Does it make him evil to side with Emperor Cole?
Everything about Nova Praetoria looks - and in some case is - better than Paragon City.
It's more modern, it's cleaner, shinier, more peaceful, with almost no crime, and the people seem happy and safe.
The moral temptation that Tyrant and his government presents just wouldn't work if Praetoria looked like the Rogue Isles.
As someone said recently: "it looks like paradise"
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork