Things that are more difficult redside, and hence more fun.

Not quite

Maybe in the sense of: we have a general idea, basically their names, their general appearance, which counterpart they are, and their powers. But in terms of everything else, it's anybody's guess.

There will be facial hair, and there will be rotation of it

Praetorians, maybe. But the Tyrant you and Grey describe, and the entire organization he leads are blatantly, obviously, and clearly definable as down-to-the-laugh EVIL. Hence no Paragon Hero would ever, for any reason, associate themselves with such an organization, unless they too were absolutely evil and just kept the secret really well. Unless you two are WAY off, then the side switching mechanic will have as much subtlety as the first Fable. Instead of leading down what may be a questionable path, we are left with this little scenario:

"What a beautiful sunrise. You know what sounds good today? I'm going to head down to the" bank, rip the vault door off, take everything inside and then poke old ladies in the chest, because I am Superman! And I am Evil!"

No reason, no slippery slope, just "Screw it, I'm a bad guy now." And the problem I've had is that all the evidence points to this being the case. Without some real heavy ret-conning we really are looking at the same quality of writing as the 5th Column TFs. I really want this to be a big draw for new players, but the way it is now, I'm just not seeing it.

EDIT: I'm not asking that it not turn the Heroes evil to work for Tyrant, or that too would defeat the purpose of the expansion, but at least don't start off the side switching arcs with burning down kindergartens.

They're not going to

The main writer for Praetoria said it's done as a snowball effect, getting you do more and more questionable things, until you feel uncomfotable with what you're being asked to do in the name of peace and security.

Starting with agreeing to work for an Evil dictator. I'm already uncomfortable.

He might not seem to be evil at first

To quote the trailer:

"It looks like paradise"
"Looks can be deceiving"

Given in to the Dark side we have cookies, and Handsome Pretty boys with silver hair.

Doom/Batman in 2012

The Resistance has boobs too, and better hair!

I'll stick with the right side - good boys are better than bad boys

Just because he's a megalomaniac doesn't mean he's on an only-ever-do-bad policy. A competent ruthless overlord gives his positive-PR tasks to the do-gooders in his nation. Why give more work to those who'll go to any lengths? You'll never have enough of them that you can rely on, so don't waste their work on anything less than what they're willing to do. Give to good works to the do-gooders and not only do you keep them on-side but you keep the trustworthy ones in your organisation. Honest people with ambition are far too valuable a resource to drive them away in the name of LOLEVIL.

A talented ruthless overlord, of course, makes positive-PR tasks for the do-gooders. Then again, a competent ruler never has to hold power by force in the first place.

Ghost Widow is pretty high on the popularity poll...

He's not an evil dictator. He's the mighty and benevolent Emperor Cole. My Loyalist knows what the Psychic Friends Network does, and the Powers Department does (basically the two "bad" things that Cole does) and yet he still calls Cole that. I really hate repeating myself, but my Loyalist is a hero. His Primal counterpart - if he had superpowers, which he's doesn't as he only has them in Praetoria because of Cole and PG - would be a hero, fighting for the side of right. In Kurran's mind (name of the Loyalist), you can never achieve true utopia, but the utopia Cole has created is far superior to the society that exists on Primal Earth.

I won't speak for the others, but this is kind of the point I was trying to make for the bulk of this. That maybe there will be a reason for Heroes to even step foot on the slope. The only response I kept getting back is that Tyrant is evil Evil EVIL.

What I can't understand is how folks are saying that even though he's the clearly defined Evil, that there can still be any moral ambiguity left. You can't point to black and call it gray. If he was an Antagonist, I could work with that. Extremist, Anti-Hero, hell even if he was a Villain there could be some work around there. But the word I keep seeing is Evil. You do not reconcile with that. You do not work with Evil.

Evil is.

Evil is Darkseid, it is Joker, it is Lecter, it is pain, destruction, death and suffering. You do not half *** Evil. Evil is what Recluse wants to be when he grows up. Even a Villain can have redeeming qualities, but not Evil. It is the antithesis of everything that makes sense in the world. And it is not something that can be hidden. If a person is Evil, truly Evil as Tyrant is supposed to be, then no right minded soul can even look upon him and not KNOW that their life is in imminent danger.

On the color scale of morality Evil is the cold dark center of a black hole. A person has to earn the right to be called Evil, and it's not something that they can ever come back from.

And it's not something I can work with. Ever.

Which is exactly why the closest thing to evil we have in this game is Mako, not Lord Recluse.

Tyrant may be a tyrant, but he's no Darkseid.

SPOILER... They're human, too. I have severe doubts that their whole civilization had spent their generations sleeping with their children and grandchildren, nor do I believe that their civilization currently does.

Again, the genetic defect problem arises in such an instance. The deformities that would arise in a society where such a thing is acceptable could bring ruin to a nation.

I stand by my conviction. Parents and grandparents shouldn't be trying to abuse their children and grandchildren. They should be educating them and guiding them so they may make proper decisions in their futures.

Asexuality doesn't explain your playing Devil's Advocate in this instance. Even if it were just for pleasure, there are others they can turn to for such gratification. Also, pleasure intercourse still runs the risk of pregnancy and infection, so defects remain relevant (Tyrant strikes me as the sort to vehemently demand the keeping of a child; at least, on some whims...).

And it DOES harm people. LOOK at Dominatrix's minions. They are a byproduct of her depraved mental state, which is likely a result-in-part of her implied activity with Tyrant. Considering what those people have to go through to become that way, and the likelihood that they are NOT all volunteers, you cannot tell me with any solid percentage of certainty that nobody is being harmed.


Challenging a social and physical taboo, but supporting a piece of propaganda...

People never believe they're the bad guys. They NEVER believe they're in the wrong. Convincing them of the notion is one of the most difficult tasks on the planet.

Stalin sincerely believed that what he was doing was in the best interests for his nation... Not his people, not his regime, but his nation. He wholly believed that what he was doing was the right thing to do, otherwise he wouldn't have done it.

But you're challenging an example. The main argument was that no one person can maintain "control and order" on a world where free will is ALWAYS a factor. Don't confuse having to weight the consequences of your actions with a lack of free will. You can always decide to do what you know will cause problems in the immediate and even far future.

I have received little reassurance that he's not the monster as depicted in the "previous incarnation" of the Praetorians. Frankly, I was hoping for the simple words "Hero's Hero will be updated accordingly to reflect these changes" or other phrases to that effect, and have been met with shrugs.

Only if they're removed or updated to reflect the changes. Otherwise, their "previous behavior" remains a mark upon their history, and they should be held accountable for their actions.

If the Praetorians in Hero's Hero (and the preceding arc) were to be updated and changed, then I would have less of a problem with "Tyrant and Company." A retcon is supposed to encompass the WHOLE history of the character, not just what the writer wants changed at that moment. If this is the true history of the Praetorians, then we need the previous incarnation changed to reflect that.

And I defy you to provide me an example where incest wasn't considered wrong by the populace.

Most plants can reproduce with themselves, but they do their damnedest to avoid it. I would think animals with cognition would have at least as much sense.

Boudica as known as Boadicea and Saint Joan of Arc

i think you find theese two have killed alot in their time

dude what kind of world are you living in... the UN would never nuke somewhere..... there be a number of reason why not, i give a few theInnocence that be living there and now many would be in Lord Recluse back pocket saying.... what he done, he a good man he done wounders

a what point is there no freedom? if you got robots doing ur job or harder task....... and letting them do do more stuff in their free time?

where the cellblock and no life/socail life?

The Royal Families in Egypt, most extremely the Ptolomaic period. King Tut being born of a brother and sister is in the news right now.

However, if that teaches us anything, its why incest is normally considered taboo, as the genes WILL out.

By "Give the 'Okay...'" I mean that they would shrug their shoulders when the U.S. nuked the bejaybus out of the Isles. Only the Villains know it's not a complete wasteland. The rest of the world looks at the Etoiles as a hive of scum and villainy.

Well, Phipps too. He may be pathetic in his aims, but they still count.

And I can guarantee you that the people of Egypt were laughing behind their backs all the while.

The Egyptian pharaohs may have demanded worship, but I'm certain the people were wondering just what the Hell was wrong with their leadership when they were out of sight.