If you could redesign a canon faction (or two)


Arcanaville

 

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I overlooked the obvious canon faction I'd change: the Praetorians.

To start with I'd make the followers of the different Praetorian Guards less of the hobos and reskinned mobs and into more unique and defined groups. Then I'd do a lot more in flipping Primal Earth to Praetorian Earth, just with more Praetorian hands behind things (and I still love my idea of the Vahzilok King being the Praetorian Clockwork King).

We'll see what GR contains, of course, but the Praetorians are a group who could really do with a full going over.


 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
I'd simply extend the lvl of the Tsoo to 50.
Yeah, the Tsoo don't need a redesign - they're well designed - they just need more content both sides. Being debuff/damage/control-heavy they certainly feel more like a high-level faction than a mid-level one, and their leader Tub Ci is L45-50 in-game (Viridian's arc) so it's time his faction was high enough level to stand beside him in some new high-level Tsoo content, exploring their lore more fully.

I can't decide if The Warriors need a complete redesign or just deleting completely - their lore is thin, their motivations hazy, their appearance bland, their AI/tactics boring, and their redside presence almost non-existent (blueside isn't much better). Call me cynical, I wouldn't be shocked if their sole reason for existing was so that Jack Emmert could utilise his classical education naming Warrior bosses. Lore-wise it might have made more sense to have the Tsoo leading the Hellion/Outcast cartel, both from an artefact-smuggling perspective and so those gangs could peddle the Rage drug, giving them more reason for clashing with the Superadine-peddling Skulls/Trolls/Family cartel.

Malta and the Knives of Artemis need their lore developed and the connection between them explained - sure, they're meant to be mysterious, but they're too mysterious - as are the Sky Raiders, who I'd turn into a mid-level proxy for Malta (i.e. secretly controlled by them), tying both groups together in lore which should be easy as both have a military background and an anti-superhero agenda - then the Devs could ramp up the anti-supers conspiracy from L20+ with the Sky Raiders, setting the stage for Malta/KoA at L40-50 (like The Lost set the stage for the Rikti, and the Skulls/Trolls for The Family re Superadine). Maybe also give Malta some Skiffs like the Sky Raiders use, but better armed and nastier, and make Sky Raider JumpBots a bit more ubiquitous (maybe add some bigger versions with Zeus/Hercules-like elements). And lots more arc content all-round - give Malta an aircraft-carrier base that we can fight on/inside/through in missions/TFs.

The Coralax need developing further too - lots of potential there with their Cthulhu-like backstory - either partially flood DA and chuck them in there alongside the BP (to add variety), or make a new foggy coastal zone for both factions based on HP Lovecraft's Innsmouth (seems to be the popular thing to do now that the Cthulhu Mythos is public domain) - or just give us the long-rumoured underwater zone.

The Wailers also need to be completely redeveloped so that they have more variety in appearance and tactics (why don't they use most Sonic Resonance powers?) and give them some blueside presence too - tie it in as the consequence of the end of Hardcase's Pied Piper arc (which diverts some Wailers to Paragon).


 

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Originally Posted by Lord Mayhem View Post
as are the Sky Raiders, who I'd turn into a mid-level proxy for Malta (i.e. secretly controlled by them), tying both groups together in lore which should be easy as both have a military background and an anti-superhero agenda - then the Devs could ramp up the anti-supers conspiracy from L20+ with the Sky Raiders, setting the stage for Malta/KoA at L40-50 (like The Lost set the stage for the Rikti, and the Skulls/Trolls for The Family re Superadine). Maybe also give Malta some Skiffs like the Sky Raiders use, but better armed and nastier, and make Sky Raider JumpBots a bit more ubiquitous (maybe add some bigger versions with Zeus/Hercules-like elements). And lots more arc content all-round - give Malta an aircraft-carrier base that we can fight on/inside/through in missions/TFs.
Sky Raiders are actually controlled by Nemesis.


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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

 

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More like sponsored. And it's not like Malta isn't controlled by Nemesis. (note: joke)

I discussed Sky Raiders with a friend yesterday and we concluded that the following changes would make the group more interesting.

1) Remove all human minions. Replace them with robotic drones of various kinds; a force field generator, a gun drone, etc.

2) Make the former human minions into lieutenants. Make jump bots into lieutenants. Make Captains into bosses.

3) Remove sky skiffs from regular spawns. Let sky skiffs be part of special spawns for outdoors locations only.

4) Let the new Captain bosses summon paratroopers (human minions arriving by parachute) and robotic minions like masterminds. Give Captains more machete attacks and give them dual pistols once that's available.

5) Introduce "mine fields", pre-deployed as part of spawns. Nearly invisible for unenhanced perception, these immobile underlings simply explode when stepped upon. Just like mines from Traps or Devices.

6) Change all Sky Raider weaponry into a high-tech light-weight arsenal to promote the idea of flying pirates. One idea was a lightning-gun similar to a Malta Sapper's gun but with less end drain and more damage.

Now they are more like mid-level Malta and their lore can be altered to represent this. Maybe Nemesis loses interest in the Sky Raiders once his involvement is exposed as part of the story, and the Raiders turn to Malta for support, which means that they will get a stronger anti-supers agenda, which in turn will give the Raiders a more interesting motivation than simple piracy and mercenary activities.


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Why stop with just one faction, there are several that need some serious updating.

1) Sky Raiders and GoldBrickers. The Sky Raiders are meh. They have a compelling story line to thier existence, but for ex-mil spec ops, they are really really weak. Matla pwns but the Sky Raiders suck. What gives? Take some of the 'Brickers' sonic weapons and put them with the Raiders and you start to have a faction with a little more bite. I dont want to just eliminate Midas' story, because it too is pretty good, but it just stops too early in the game. These two groups need to talk to each other, because they really need each other.

2) Malta. They need a better reason to exist. For a "behind the scenes" organization, they tend to flaunt it quite a bit. They should be ret-conned into being the "elite" of the Family. The members of the Family that show exceptional prowess get invited into the Malta ("an offer they can't refuse.") It would make a nice transition from the 30s into the 40s for the Family fading away and the Malta stepping up. And of cource adding some gravy powers to some of the Malta would just be silly fun.

3) Outcasts, Warriors, and Tsoo. 3 low to mid level groups that seem to have a perfect 3-way battle for control of the streets. Outcasts have thier elemental powers, Warriors are focused heavily on physical/melee attacks, and the Tsoo are a magic/MA hybrid. The Tsoo persist alot longer than the other groups, but I dont see why dont have more street fighting between the groups aside from some minor skirmishing in the northern end of Steel. Some serious ret-conning of not only the origin of these groups but how they should have intertwined past, present, and future should be in order.

4) Trolls. I have no idea where to start here. Okay, I like the raves, I don't mind they have most of the Hallows, but seriously, who goes to the Hallows anymore? The trolls need a new offensive, spreading deeper into Steel and Skyway (beyond the raves) and perhaps trying to get a foot hold in IP or Talos. I like this group, but they seem to be stagnating despite having thier own zone event.


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Originally Posted by InfamousBrad View Post
While we're talking villains in suits, Crey should extend a lot farther down, too ... as (so far as your character knows) good guys. After all, they're (a) the city's biggest employer, supposedly, and (b) prominently displayed in the tutorial. It would add punch to the later Crey content if the player felt betrayed by them.
Heck, redside even gives you chances to fight them as early as level 15! Those Security Guards never felt like a level 30+ threat to me, and it's sad that most of their coolest units (Juggernauts, Crisis Units, etc...) vanish after 39.

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Originally Posted by brophog02 View Post
For folks that play a super hero genre game, it is amazing how many of the things native to superhero comics they do not like.
Where is it written that you must like EVERYTHING featured in a medium in order to be a fan? I always found Depowering to be cheap and crappy myself, it means that either your hero is too powerful or the writer is simply not creative enough.


 

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Originally Posted by JKPhage View Post
That's... exactly what they implied.
Thanks for clearing that up for me :P

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Personally, I think that the Clockwork King is crazy due to a combination of brain damage from the beating he took at the hands of Blue Steel as well as massive sensory deprivation.

Imagine if someone took away your sense of touch and taste, that the only way you had to hear or speak was through psychic or mechanical means, and that your visual acuity is probably sucky at best since your eyes are floating around in liquid without EYELIDS.

I can see a Civil War in the Clockwork Kingdom as CK's better and baser natures war with each other. (I'd give CK the Good an enhanced body that resembles the Praetorian Clockwork and have his old body still operate with an empty braincase ...)

I've always felt that the named Clockwork bosses that we fight are simply aspects of a Multiple Personality Disorder that CK suffers from. I'd like to see them have differering interests and abilities to suggest this, actually ...
I'm gonna have to disagree with you there considering the fact that before Blue Steel beat the pajoobas out of him and he was put in that horror of a brass-iron prison, he was still sending little Clockwork men out to gather scrap metal. And he was just a young man then as well. He was obviously already quite deluded.

Yeah, and considering the power of his mind I wouldn't put it past him to be able to maintain so many personalities. Oh well, as long as it keeps him entertained XD



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Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg View Post
3) Remove sky skiffs from regular spawns. Let sky skiffs be part of special spawns for outdoors locations only.
Yeah, it's not like Longbow deploys their Chasers indoors.

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Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg View Post
5) Introduce "mine fields", pre-deployed as part of spawns. Nearly invisible for unenhanced perception, these immobile underlings simply explode when stepped upon. Just like mines from Traps or Devices.
Legacy Chain does something like this with the Runes, though they're hardly used even in Legacy Chain missions, which we have too few of.


 

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Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
I always found Depowering to be cheap and crappy myself, it means that either your hero is too powerful or the writer is simply not creative enough.
Debuffing is mechanically always, and conceptually usually, a form of depowering in this game**. Where people draw the line is generally arbitrary. Very few people think its cheap that we can debuff critters' damage, but that is only a degree separated from debuffing recharge (which reduces the frequency powers can be used) and debuffing endurance (which reduced the ability to use powers above a certain cost) and power suppression (which removes the ability to use certain types of powers). Its a continuum of effects without intrinsic borders.

Mostly, I'm responding to the notion that the concept of depowering, especially when translated into an MMO, represents a lack of creativity. To the contrary, I consider the lack of it to represent a lack of creativity in utilizing it effectively.


** Some debuffs can be argued to be conceptually not a reduction in the target's abilities, but rather a defensive measure against those abilities. For example, some -perception powers that affect tohit can be argued to be not intrinsicly reducing the target's aim, but forcing the target to use that aim in a disadvantageous situation. Debuffing damage, on the other hand, has almost no conceptual options in this game to actually weakening the target. Its *possible* to make an effect that debuffs the target's damage but isn't conceptually weakening it - make him shoot through a force field you've encased him in - but such conceptualizations are extremely rare in CoX


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Originally Posted by NetMinder View Post
Why stop with just one faction, there are several that need some serious updating.

1) Sky Raiders and GoldBrickers. The Sky Raiders are meh. They have a compelling story line to thier existence, but for ex-mil spec ops, they are really really weak. Matla pwns but the Sky Raiders suck. What gives? Take some of the 'Brickers' sonic weapons and put them with the Raiders and you start to have a faction with a little more bite. I dont want to just eliminate Midas' story, because it too is pretty good, but it just stops too early in the game. These two groups need to talk to each other, because they really need each other.
I think the biggest problem with Sky Raiders as far as gameplay is concerned is that the game hands out smethal resistance like candy. Considering they have bubblers and teleporting snipers they've got a few interesting toys so just give them a few more interesting attacks, a little more exotic damage, and fix Skiff AI so they don't fight in melee range. An EB Skiff would be a good idea for specific missions.

A later game alliance of Goldbrickers and Sky Raiders would be nice but as mentioned I'd prefer they be allied but separate. In fact, I explicitly would not want to see Sky Raiders merged with Malta since I don't think their loot-n-plunder style meshes with Malta's kill-the-supers stance.

BTW, while I don't want the full spoiler since I want to run the mission itself, where in the game does it reveal Nemesis' involvement with the Raiders?

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I always found Depowering to be cheap and crappy myself, it means that either your hero is too powerful or the writer is simply not creative enough.
I dunno. While depowering is sometimes handled poorly, it's not a bad plot point in its own right. It also seems like it would be the natural fighting theory of a Natural enemy fighting someone explicitly super powered--"bring them down to my level". The problem is the "every criminal has kryptonite" issue of not being able to walk two steps without being downpowered. Just limit it to key enemies so that's their MO and lessen it with others. *shrug*


 

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Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
Heck, redside even gives you chances to fight them as early as level 15!
Yes, lucky us. Just reading that sentence gave me horrible flashbacks to my run ins with those Chief Plasma Scientists. I can't think of anything I'd rather less face in the pre-20 redside game (except for Fortunatas on a Dom...)


 

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Originally Posted by Zamuel View Post
BTW, while I don't want the full spoiler since I want to run the mission itself, where in the game does it reveal Nemesis' involvement with the Raiders?
Two places. It's strongly hinted at in the 'The Mysterious General Z' story arc heroside. The bits you need to conclusively say so don't come until 'The Eternal Nemesis', though.


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Originally Posted by Zamuel View Post
It also seems like it would be the natural fighting theory of a Natural enemy fighting someone explicitly super powered--"bring them down to my level". The problem is the "every criminal has kryptonite" issue of not being able to walk two steps without being downpowered.
Yep, on both accounts.


 

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Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree View Post
(except for Fortunatas on a Dom...)
That's actually one of the few advantages Gravity Control has. Just start tossing them around like ragdolls since they lack KB resistance.


 

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In fact, I explicitly would not want to see Sky Raiders merged with Malta since I don't think their loot-n-plunder style meshes with Malta's kill-the-supers stance.
I wouldn't want to see them merged with Malta but I'd rather they were the Malta farm team -- pawns of Malta primarily used to find new talent -- than Yet Another Nemesis Plot.


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Originally Posted by Kelenar View Post
Two places. It's strongly hinted at in the 'The Mysterious General Z' story arc heroside. The bits you need to conclusively say so don't come until 'The Eternal Nemesis', though.
Nemesis regularly recruits from other militaristic criminal groups, I'm sure there are Nemesis plots going in practically all the villain groups like the Raiders, the Council and so on


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Originally Posted by Zamuel View Post
That's actually one of the few advantages Gravity Control has. Just start tossing them around like ragdolls since they lack KB resistance.
It just occured to me that when I wrote Dom I really meant Mind Control Doms, of which I've made so many it barely occured to me that there are other Dom primaries. In any case it's a pain when a major faction has lieutenants that are essentially immune to your controls (well, there's always Confuse I suppose.)

On the subject of another faction, someone mentioned the Wailers. Yes. They all look the same give or take minor differences in size and coloring, and they're not scary, and they should be. But then St Martial is, in general, the only redside zone I don't like. Given the ideas behind it (Las Vegas, with demons) it should be weird and awesome and scary and it really isn't.


 

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I love it when factions are interconnected - it makes the world feel more alive - so we need lots more of that.

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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel View Post
Sky Raiders are actually controlled by Nemesis.
And everything else isn't?


 

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Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
I always hated Blue/Black denial decks in Magic: The Gathering (such decks either took your cards away or blocked your attempts to play them).
I loved playing them... HATED playing against them.

Also, I had a friend who had a Blue/White deck set up in such a way that most everything you did was countered, delayed, altered, or nullified. It was ridiculous. I could attack him for 30 and he would end up gaining 2 life after the whole thing. It was horrid. But he loved that deck.



 

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Originally Posted by Lord Mayhem View Post
I love it when factions are interconnected - it makes the world feel more alive - so we need lots more of that.


And everything else isn't?
Hellions and skulls, they're too incompetent even for Nemesis to find use for.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

 

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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel View Post
Hellions and skulls, they're too incompetent even for Nemesis to find use for.
Maybe his soldiers could use them for target practice - that would be useful


 

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I would love to see more Vahzilok, maybe have them return for 30-40 doing deals with the Freakshow on Heroes, then the Meat Doctors can be transferred over too.

I could see the Cadavers and/or Abominations being underlings, with Mortificators and Meat Doctors being Minions and Eidolons as Lieutenants (similar to the Crey leveling up with their power suits going from Boss to Lieut to Minion). For bosses, hulked up masses of flesh/Freakshow tech similar to the good Doctor himself, with a detonation pack for when they get on low health could work.

As for Doctor Vahzilok, he can show up again at the end of a two-part arc from 30-35, then 35-40, making deals with some high ranking Freakshow, with both parties having been upgraded by each other.

Dr Vahz would have to be beefed up by Freak tech, with a better gun and more bodies attached to his armour, the odd metal spike sticking out from here and there. Add in a damage aura, full auto and/or flamethrower variant and better damage resistances. The Freakshow deal maker could be a large Tank with a circular saw as one weapon and large gun like Dr Vahz'.

Speaking of, always wondered why there was a Freak Tank Gunner with a gatling gun for one hand and rocket launcher for the other.. That would have to be added too.

I would also like to redo the Minions of Igneous, put them up to level 10-50 and move them to more zones. Give them some presence in Faultline, Siren's Call, Founders and Eden. Add in a TF/Trial/Arc where you try and stop a forthcoming war or alliance between Igneous and DE.. Maybe a badge or two.. They could be a force to be reckoned with if buffed up through the levels and given powers like Mud Pots, Earthquake, Stalagmites (AoE mez version) or Foot Stomp. Throw an Inferno and/or Rise of the Phoenix at the Magmite Lords and you have a powerful rival to the Devouring Earth.


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