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Originally Posted by Harkness
Playing a Stone Tank, there's rarely a time when you don't want SB. Unless you build for speed and recharge, Granite is painfully slow.
However, I haven't encountered another build where a desire for SB isn't really a desire for something else, usually Endurance. Since Transference is a debuff as well as a buff, it's something I'm happy to use frequently without feeling trapped into that "SB buffbot" mode. I handle this by compromise, stated in my profile: I SB the tanks/brutes and anyone who asks for it, but otherwise, I don't. I admit that my team might work a little better if I SB-d everyone, all the time, but I played a Defender like that, took it to 50, and never played it because I loathed feeling like a SB-dispenser. I don't understand not taking SB though. I always SB my imps and the improved DPS is blatantly obvious to me. Mobs go down quicker. And that one guy who always runs now? He doesn't make it half as far, so my imps don't pull the next mob by accident. |
Pretty much everyone on the team benefits from +Recharge as well as +Endurance from Speed Boost. I love receiving Speed Boost on every single character I have, no matter what the AT or powerset. Ask any experienced Controller how important +Recharge is. I can understand not wanting to be trapped in the "SB Buffbot" mode, but that minor inconvenience will help the entire team run missions much faster. (If I don't feel like being an "SB Buffbot," I don't play my */Kin or Kin/* or I go solo.)
As for only buffing Imps and not buffing the rest of the team? Imps no longer receive any benefit from Speed Boost other than +Runspeed and a very minimal benefit from +Recovery -- the +Recharge doesn't work on them. So, SB'ing the Imps will help them run from target to target faster, but that's about it. It would make a lot more sense to SB teammates over Imps.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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The big deal is that you're completely negating the benefit of Ice Slick. |
Originally Posted by Fusion_7
While we are on the subject of Fire/Kins, I took my level 44 Fire/Kin Controller out a few days ago in a team mish. There was another Controller who I believe was Ice/Ice. He sent me a direct tell saying not to stack fire cages on the foes if he puts an ice patch down. I didn't reply as a I got to thinking what was he saying as it didn't make sense to me. I think his logic was if he put an ice patch down, then the foes couldn't slip and slide away if I "locked" them in place standing up with my fire cages and fire holds. Then I got to thinking, while they are locked in place, they are taking damage and if they came out of the fire hold, then the ice patch would still cause them to slip. So, what was the big deal here?
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The purpose of Ice Slick is to dramatically reduce incoming damage by causing mobs to repeatedly fall. If you use an immob on top of ice slick, you're completely canceling the knockdown and allowing enemies to attack full speed.
Now, if the team has the situation well under control then by all means throw Fire Cages and go to town. But if the baddies on the ice slick are still numerous enough to be a threat to the team, you do the team a huge disservice by using Fire Cages.
If you're the only controller on the team, things are very different. Fire Cages doesn't affect the stun from Flashfire and is helpful because it sets up containment (double damage) and keeps the mobs from spreading out as they stagger around stunned. So while it's a natural alpha strike for a Fire/Kin to do Flashfire + Fire Cages, if an Ice Slick is thrown down (and not Flashfire), don't use your immob.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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I've heard folks complain about graphics problems and crashes if Spooded.
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Originally Posted by Silas
Surely a teammate with a full roster of powers would benefit much more "blatantly" from SB than a Fire Imp which only has one attack which is unaffected by recharge buffs.
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Maybe you haven't played your Fire/Kin in a while? It's true that SB used to amp up the DPS of imps, but they've been changed so that they are immune to +Recharge. So any "blatantly obvious" improved DPS nowadays is just the placebo effect.
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Originally Posted by Harkness
I always SB my imps and the improved DPS is blatantly obvious to me. Mobs go down quicker.
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Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
I know I'm the bad guy here, but I'll team with a /Kin and not personally care if I get a speed boost or not. I like them, but no biggie. Who cares? So the team will perform better? Big deal. I don't care. You can take your kin with me and speed boost me, or not. Your call.
Lewis
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That's not the bad guy at all . . . that's the apathetic guy, maybe, but far from bad. If anything, I'd say you are being nice.|
Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
I know I'm the bad guy here, but I'll team with a /Kin and not personally care if I get a speed boost or not. I like them, but no biggie. Who cares? So the team will perform better? Big deal. I don't care. You can take your kin with me and speed boost me, or not. Your call.
Lewis |
I don't particularly care much about getting buffed for standard missions, but for a TF, a good Kinetic can help us get through it faster. The one time I have done the Dr. Quarterfield TF, we had an AE baby Fire/Kin who would only buff the team half the time when he was specifically reminded, and we were too nice to constantly remind him . . . we could have finished that TF a lot faster if he had been willing to keep the team buffed most of the time. Considering how long that TF is, that buff in speed would add up.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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I think that says more about the ease of the game, than your demeanor, Lewis. To be fair, people rarely "need" SB, but it sure is nice to have.
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Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
I know I'm the bad guy here, but I'll team with a /Kin and not personally care if I get a speed boost or not. I like them, but no biggie. Who cares? So the team will perform better? Big deal. I don't care. You can take your kin with me and speed boost me, or not. Your call.
Lewis |
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
When I'm on my kin, I usually start the mish by asking if anyone does NOT want SB....the occasional no pops up.
Love the toon.
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I don't think that makes you the bad guy. SB, like almost all buffs, is just nice to have. I'm not gonna be mad if someone doesn't SB. I am generally not very impressed with people who either SB once at the beginning of a mission then never again, or only their pets. But that's because I think in the grand scheme of things the benefits of SBing a whole team far outweigh whatever hassle it is to do so. |
Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
I know I'm the bad guy here, but I'll team with a /Kin and not personally care if I get a speed boost or not. I like them, but no biggie. Who cares? So the team will perform better? Big deal. I don't care. You can take your kin with me and speed boost me, or not. Your call.
Lewis |
It just struck me as pretty odd that someone said they go to the trouble of keeping all of their Imps SBed, (since they're unaffected by recharge buffs), but will only SB the brute/tank on a team and no one else unless they ask.
Although I do think SB should be buffed to a 4 minute duration. I see no reason for it to only have a 2 minute duration versus all other ally buffs (Therm shields, FF bubbles, cold shields, sonic shields) last 4 minutes.
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To SB or not to SB, that is the question...|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
Pretty much everyone on the team benefits from +Recharge as well as +Endurance from Speed Boost. I love receiving Speed Boost on every single character I have, no matter what the AT or powerset. Ask any experienced Controller how important +Recharge is. I can understand not wanting to be trapped in the "SB Buffbot" mode, but that minor inconvenience will help the entire team run missions much faster. (If I don't feel like being an "SB Buffbot," I don't play my */Kin or Kin/* or I go solo.)
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- It benefits everyone with recharge, recovery and speed
- Some people complain if they get it
- Some people whine if they don't get it
- Keeping it up on a team can lead to buffbot feeling
I've played a Kin/Ice Def that used to SB everyone, and then been criticised for not attacking often enough.... While I was in the middle of refreshing everyone's SB.
SB seems to invite this sort of external opinion more than any other people I've used. I've had people seriously freak out over getting a SB they didn't want. And seeing "sb pls" exactly one second after you watched the old SB fade from someone's buff-bar is frustrating. On a team filled with those types, I find the buffbot sensation inescapable.
I've learned that I don't enjoy playing what feels like a "buffbot", but I do enjoy playing my Fire/Kin as long as I don't feel like a buffbot. So I take SB, but use it on the people that seem to need it the most, rather than everyone, all the time. This is a game, so I play what feels fun
Also, curiously, I've never had a single complaint when playing my Fire/Kin.
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Originally Posted by Sardan
Maybe you haven't played your Fire/Kin in a while? It's true that SB used to amp up the DPS of imps, but they've been changed so that they are immune to +Recharge. So any "blatantly obvious" improved DPS nowadays is just the placebo effect.
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Well, that's just weird
Thanks for the correction.
I'm amazed the difference in movement speed is having a noticeable effect (and there really does seem to be a noticeable difference), but I'll probably stop bothering if it's not affecting recharge.
Whenever I played my Fire/Kin, I found it to be a waste of time SB'ing my imps, even when it enhanced their recharge.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
When playing on my Mind/Kin, i only tend to SB people who seem to need it due to endurance issues or if they ask for it. My PRIMARY role is control, and I embrace it.
However, if I'm on my Kin/elec, then i keep the buffs up as best I can. Again, it's part of my primary.
I don't think less of people who don't play to their primary's strengths and instead concentrate on their secondary, but then I'm forced to wonder why they don't play an AT with those powers as their primary. *shrug*
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
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Fire, my first love has always been fire/fire/pyre tanks... in fact, i've quoted your take on how to play a fire fire to many who are interested in that type of tank... my comment and take on the slow *** tank, was only to infer that sometimes the "tank" in question, demands SB every mob because their build is so ineffective w/ end and recharge that the kin's real power is lost... Also, the mentality, that their taunt, herd, move around a wall method of tanking is always appropriate... and suggesting otherwise becomes an affront...|
Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
I can see your woes with being back up for a slow Tanker, but youv never teamed with a real Fire/Fire/Pyre Tanker.With, or without your buffs, they can whipe mobs faster then any Tanker you normally play with.(Thats not counting SD/Elec Tankers.)
My point is, dont bother with pandering to that Tank if its a known Stand and Deliver Slow Killing Tanker.Just annyalate the map anyhow.Pointless to allow your self to be played second fiddle. To the OP, many people play a Fire/Kin because they like speed, and have little, to no patience when it comes to farming, and I cant say I blame them.If you had to stare at the same mobs day after day, id want them dead quick too. I just perfer other ATs and builds to get that job done. |
I would rather kin behind a fire tank ANY DAY compared to a stone tank... What prompted me to play a fire/kin was partnering up with a fantastic player. Fire tank/kin/blaster ftw. I found that I became a better controller once I got away from the farm mentality. My second build reflects that better.
In the immortal words of Socrates, "I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
Back to what I asked earlier, my grav/kin is about to reach lvl 41 and what i was asking as far as help is what epic power pool should I take, earth, or fire, and why?
That depends on what you are going for or what you think your controller needs. That's why I suggested you put up a Mid's in a new thread and let people look it over.
If you are going for soft capped defense, stone and ice armors add a nice chunk of smash/lethal. If you are using too much endurance (which shouldn't be a problem on a kin) consider primal for conserve energy or fire for consume. Fire also has the best damage AoE in fireball.
Although you didn't list it, Psychic Mastery is also a good choice not just for the armor, but for the mez resistance of mind over body and world of confusion might be interesting when running in for a fulcrum shift.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
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Would you be impressed with a defender that didn't use or rarely used their secondary i.e. pure healers? |
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
When playing on my Mind/Kin, i only tend to SB people who seem to need it due to endurance issues or if they ask for it. My PRIMARY role is control, and I embrace it.
However, if I'm on my Kin/elec, then i keep the buffs up as best I can. Again, it's part of my primary. I don't think less of people who don't play to their primary's strengths and instead concentrate on their secondary, but then I'm forced to wonder why they don't play an AT with those powers as their primary. *shrug* |
(opinion time)
Focusing on your primary does not mean ignoring your secondary. You are a controller, and whether anyone likes it or not, controllers are a support based AT. I always argue that:
1. You never achieve your full potential as a controller until you embrace all aspects of your powers.
2. It's not that hard to shield......sb.......buff......whatever and control. I'm sorry it's not.
3. Keybinds and macro's are your friends. Both for communication with teammates or for ease of buffs.
Now that I partially got that off my chest I'll say this. Should a controller keep SB on people 24/7? Will the world end if they don't? No. But they should try to. Yes focus on the primary....control the enemies butt off.....just try and get those teammates between spawns. It's not that hard. And if you have obnoxious teammates that demand 'SB NAO!!!' Let them know if you are in the middle of a spawn that you will try and get them in between. A simple team chat macro of "I'll try and get SB between spawns, if you want it make sure and don't run off"
If you don't like buffing then you can either: play /TA or /Storm, or another AT altogether, or solo.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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Perhaps.|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
I think that says more about the ease of the game, than your demeanor, Lewis. To be fair, people rarely "need" SB, but it sure is nice to have.
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I play COH to relax and have fun. If it were made harder such that the difference between success and failure (on either regular missions or task forces) came down to whether or not everyone was speed boosted, it'd probably be too stressful for me to enjoy anymore.
That said, whenever *I'm* driving with a Kin, Thermal, FF or Sonic or Cold character, I absolutely keep all the relevant team buffs up at all times. But, that's because I tend to be obsessive about things like that.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
And that's pretty much my take on things too. I never "expect" someone else to keep me buffed 24/7 and I don't loose my stuff if I'm not perma SB'd....but I'll try as much as I can to keep them on others if I've got them.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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As far as TA goes I have not played one, as far as storm goes have you forgotton 02 BOOST? It is like heal other + helps with perception, end drain, stun, sleep. I guess lot of people forgot about that, LOVE MY ICE/STORM TROLLER :P
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Originally Posted by MentalMaden
If you don't like buffing then you can either: play /TA or /Storm, or another AT altogether, or solo.
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Given I have a Storm/Rad defender and a Fire/Storm controller (50s) no I didn't forget it, because 02 boost is generally considered a reactive power and not a proactive power. (It is nice to put on people in Malta maps, but lets be fair, most people don't even realize you just protected them from the sappers)|
Originally Posted by LSK
As far as TA goes I have not played one, as far as storm goes have you forgotton 02 BOOST? It is like heal other + helps with perception, end drain, stun, sleep. I guess lot of people forgot about that, LOVE MY ICE/STORM TROLLER :P
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I can't in my right mind say that after almost 6 years of play I ever saw "O2 boost plz" in team chat.
But point taken.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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Next time I team with you on one of your Stormies, I'm gonna say that just to break your streak . . . |
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
I can't in my right mind say that after almost 6 years of play I ever saw "O2 boost plz" in team chat.
But point taken. |
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
i have actually requested O2 boost before
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Reactively or proactively?|
Originally Posted by RoboBug
i have actually requested O2 boost before
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I'm just talking about someone wanting it before anything happens, not when blinded...slept...stunned....etc.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
t Harkness, You always SB all your imps but you only SB non-brute/tanks if they ask for it? It strikes me as odd you say the DPS of the imps is "blatantly" higher with SB but you'll only SB a few people on the team unless they ask for it.
Surely a teammate with a full roster of powers would benefit much more "blatantly" from SB than a Fire Imp which only has one attack which is unaffected by recharge buffs.
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