Why do you AoE Immobilize -kb on top of earthquake/ice slick, WHY !!!

I've seriously begun keeping a "list" of controllers I don't want to team with... what compels someone to see a big pile of flopping enemies and immediately think to themselves, "now would be a good time for some AoE -kb!"

I mean, sure, when they're lowbies, they might feel it's one of the few things they can do for dmg, but 30+?? Really?? There's plenty of things to do on a team as a controller besides ruining another controller's mitigation and not providing any of your own... You think they'd take a clue when they see the tank doing fine and immediately get pummeled after application of AoE immob... or, at the very least, when they are near always faceplanted because of starting a fight with that immob as soon as the other controller lays down knockdown.

No, I'm not talking about disorient + immob ghetto hold. I'm talking about non-stop application of -kb when there's ice slicks, earthquakes, and freezing rains in the mix. Surely I'm not the only one that considers this imbecilic... And no, there was no tornado in the mix to require it.

The best part is when the controller in question is themself an earth/ice primary.

my Earth/Storm (lvl 50) spams Stone cages almost always.

then again, when everything is held and/or stunned, Tornado is better damage than Earthquake is mitigation.

As stated, there was no tornado being used in any of the instances.

If things are under control, of course you want more damage, so tornado + non-stop immob is an option. But if there's no tornado being used and/or the setting is still dangerous, why would you -kb on top of a knockdown power?

Short answer? You wouldn't ever do that.

However, I started playing controllers on my Grav/FF... and as you may know, Gravity's Immob doesn't have a -KB component. So... I am very much in the habit of spamming it, mostly because there isn't really a downside to it. So, when I started playing my Ice/Storm, I had to really remember to try NOT to use the Immob while [Ice Slick] is up. It's hard for me to do, even when I know the benefits. Hell, I would be hurting my own dang power. Perhaps a similar situation is going on?

Or, maybe, the player in question really does have no idea what power effects hinder what other power effects. Perhaps if you nicely and calmly explain what is happening, he/she will see the error in her/his ways.

I almost never take an Immob (the exception being Fire since it does good damage) and never an AoE Immob, just for that reason. Plus they can shoot at you with just the immob. If most people are flopping around and they start getting off a shot or 2, I may put an area Hold on them, because I feel the hold will shut them down faster and better than knock up. Maybe even an area confuse for when it wears off. But never an area immob.

When I was new to the game I used to spam the Earth cages. I didn't know it prevented knockdown. I more or less cut it out when I figured that out.

But, yeah. A lot of times when this topic comes up on the boards someone will say something like "generally if that's happening it means there is already enough control on the team." Maybe they get different kinds of teams than me. I'm with you on your frustration here.

The only thing I can suggest is politely informing people that they should avoid caging inside knock zones if the team is taking damage or they can't handle the aggro.

I spam my AoE immob on my Ice/ and Earth/ for 1 simple reason. I have 2 damage procs slotted. (5 slotted Posi including the proc and Crap of the Hunter Proc.)

On all my Earth/ all I use earthquake for is an opener to mitigate the alpha. I follow up with an AoE control, and then start spamming cages. Earthquake adds a little defense debuff after that so it's not a total waste.

On all my Ice/ same deal. Ice slick is the opener to mitigate the alpha. Once it's down I move in with Arctic Air and as soon as it kicks in I start spamming Frostbite. Ice slick is not needed after that since with 2 applications of Frostbite, one of Shiver and Arctic Air even +4 are going to be at the -rech cap.

Same kind of deal with any of my Fire/ trollers. You just as well not toss ice slick in there. I'm throwing smoke, then Flashfires and casting cages to set up containment as I land in melee range with Hot Feet blazing.

With my Plant/ all your ice slick is doing is slowing me down. I toss in seeds, let the mobs self herd a bit and start spamming Roots (also double damage proc'd) Ice slick or Earthquake prevent the mobs from damaging themselves in this case. I have to cancel that flopping immediately. Hopefully I'm far enough ahead that I can get seeds down and let the mobs self herd before some other troller starts popping the popcorn.

I provide good mitigation as an opener and then move in to contribute damage. By the time the mobs get a chance to react there are few enough left that they pose no real threat.

If I have to find a reason to do it, I'd say it could be for containment, but most probably it's just because alot of ppl don't lrn2ply.

Because people overestimate the importance of their own powers and underestimate the importance of others'. To the idiot controller spamming her AoE immobilize, she's setting containment and adding damage, look at how the procs in her Fire Cage are firing, two minions just went down! - and who cares about that silly KD that the other guy is doing, or that the Tanker, Defender and Blaster would really have liked the spawn closer packed for their AoE powers and auras.

This is the same reason why KB-heavy characters refuse to stop using their KB powers even when letting AoE-heavy characters neuter the spawn with debuffs and heavy damage would prevent a teamwipe. This is why AoE-heavy characters refuse to allow KB to be used even when the team really does need the extra mitigation. To other players, their contribution to the battle is of huge importance and they will expect you to let them use their powers even when it does no benefit, even when it is outright counterproductive.

If nobody is in the risk of dying whether the mobs are flopping...
Why not?

If frees up players to use AoE damage dealing powers with kb.

There's lots of reasons why people might do it, and some of them are even good reasons (others aren't).

1. They simply don't realize that their Immobilize stops the knockdown. This is easily fixed.

2. They laid it down before you laid down yours, or at roughly the same time. This is simply a case of the two of you needing to pay better attention to each other.

3. They're setting up containment to deal more damage. This is something that needs to be worked out between the two of you and the team. If the team needs damage more than mitigation, you're better off with the immob than with ice slick/earthquake and vice versa.

4. Your powers may be interfering with theirs as well. If I just used seeds of confusion on a big group of enemies, I don't want them falling down, I want them killing each other, so if another troller on the team uses a knockdown power, I'll use roots to stop the KD so they can go back to beating on each other.

5. They may be trying to prevent other knockback (tornado, energy blaster on the team, etc.)

6. They simply don't care.

Well, here's a new topic.

Instead of just complaining about it . . .

Solution #1: Communication. Just politely explain to the offending controller that your knockdown is providing full mitigation, so could he/she please not use Immob on top of it? If you get some cooperation, you can even figure out a way to communicate to the other controller, "OK, I'm gonna use my knockdown field next, so don't Immob!"

Solution #2: If #1 does not work, then just don't use the power. If you want to be snarky about it, explain in team chat that you are not going to use the power because it is a waste of endurance if Immob is cast on top.

It seems to me that I have this problem most often with Fire and Plant controllers. I can understand Plant controllers, as their Immob does twice the damage as others, but Fire is not significantly higher. And I don't feel the fairly small damage from procs makes up for the mitigation by the knockdown AoE.

But to completely skip an AoE Immob? NO! There are lots of great uses for AoE Immobs if used strategicly. AoE Immob+Stun or Confuse = a hold. AoE Immob + a large ToHit Debuff is almost a hold. AoE Immobs set up Containment, recharge faster than any other AoE control power and keep foes together for teammates to handle.

the earth immob does not do -kb, on my earth dom when i set an earthquake and use the mass immob, i still see the mob getting knocked down.

the fire, ice, and plant mass immobs have kb protection

earth and grav does not have kb protection

the earth control powers almost all of them do -defense too

i like mass immobs because they keep the mobs from scattering or running off and because they have very fast recharges.

Everyone is missing the obvious.

With 2 controllers on the team, even if neither of them have any +rech set bonuses, every spawn should have an AoE hard control being used. This should lock down everything but bosses (if your team can't handle the aggro/damage from a couple of bosses, or the controllers can't coordinate their single target holds, your team has issues that are more serious than simply canceling out an Ice Slick) and make the the need for flopping as mitigation a non-issue, or even counter productive, since you are in essence attempting to deprive your team of the contribution of the other controller.

If the battles are short enough that neither controller has an AoE hard control ready each spawn, you either need to up the difficulty, or your team has no real need of your services.

In my experience when an issue of this type comes up its one of three things.

1) A mid level vet that has learned the value of KD powers but hasn't the experience yet to coordinate with another controller.

2) A mid level vet that plays timidly and insists on staying at range. This is common for a player that either started out as a controller or blaster and doesn't yet realize the value to be found in Aura Powers. Playing a Kin of any kind, an Ice/ that uses Artic Air, a Fire/ that uses Hot Feet, or a Rad that uses Choking Cloud will quickly give you the skills required (and the desire to be) in close/melee range with the mobs.

3) A controller that is used to being the only controller on a team and either has difficulty changing tactics, or difficulty sharing "the glory".

As Local Man said, comunication is usually the key.

in any case

on my earth dom i would use both the immob and earthquake (the immob to keep mobs from running, and earthquake for stacking -def and some -tohit), the kbs from the earthquake help alleviate any stragglers from the immobs.

Well, it really depends on the skill level and focus of your team.

During the early game you don't know what you're doing so any power together looks like a good idea.

Then you learn that some powers have certain effects so you use them, like Ice Slick.

Then you find out that some powers don't necessarily synergize well in terms of effects, like Frostbite and Ice Slick.

Then you get good enough at control that it doesn't matter that you use them both together because the mobs are locked down hard enough, usually by turning on something like Arctic Air or Grav Anchor procs.

Then you find out that you have so much control anyhow that the only point to all of those great control powers is to herd as much as you can to a single kill point or over aggro to the team so you can get things done faster by doing more AoE damage.

Then you wind up combining all of that together in order to try and kill the team since there is almost no chance of the team wiping unless you deliberately try to get a whole mob full of +2 and up Bosses and EBs into a tight little ball of aggro. Otherwise you'll fall asleep.

Spamming the EQ and Ice Slick is a great place to slow the mobs and not just knock them down in order for you to 'deposit' herds where the team is busy defeating them so you can grab more mobs. Using AoE immobs is just part of the fun.

Usually you have problems when you work with people of varying experience. IE. seasoned and jaded veterans shouldn't be avalanching newbs with 6-8 mobs in a little tiny blob...

...unless you have Vengeance/PBU/Fallout....

the rez is optional. Just kidding.