So...why hasn't the KB hole been closed yet?
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2010-01-18 22:48 in Suggestions and Ideas
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Originally Posted by Rylas
A lot of people are throwing around the argument that "every set has it's hole." This is true. Ice has low resistance to Fire, which is common enough to be an issue. Inv has it's Psi hole, which is somewhat common in the late game. WP has burst damage. Stone has. . . levels 1-31 or a Psi hole after that. SD has lower defense in exchange for higher damage.
Cover those holes and each set get's overpowered — big problem. Now, FA and DA have KB holes. KB is around for the whole game. Almost every villain group has someone ready to hand it out. What does FA have in return that SD doesn't also get (if not better since its damage bonus goes to ALL damage types). DA and ELA are very similar, only it has two mez aura's and smaller res numbers. But ELA can drain most foes before the fight is over, so they both offer secondary mitigation methods. I'd argue that the recharge res available in ELA would be helpful in DA, because a lot of DA players do rely on a fast recharging heal. But I think that's a suitable hole for DA. Now, if you cover the KB holes . . . the sets wouldn't be overpowered — no big deal. I think a stronger argument is needed to keep the KB hole in. Would FA and DA suddenly tromp other sets if they had KB protection? Their other holes aren't enough? Would they not still play differently from other sets, as most of they're mitigation tools are different? |
As I see it, Fixing both sets KB hole basically frees up one power - because acro isn't needed.
What other power combinations open up due to this? Just a general question, I haven't looked into builds yet myself.
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I think the reason Fiery Aura lacks KB protection is because of Burn, which also provides immobilize protection for the set. You got massive damage by sacrificing KB protection.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
Dark Armor/Fiery Aura: Gaining your powers from the Netherworld/fire, naturally you are incapable of resisting attempts to knock you off your feet???
There is literally no reason, concept or balance-wise, why Dark Armor and Fiery Aura should lack knockback protection. The knockback hole is nothing more than a holdover from the days of failed concepts like rooting status protection, unstackable armors, or, more on the money, Provoke being better than Tankers' built-in Taunt. Except being obligated to take Acrobatics (or spend a rather sizeable amount of Inf on the -KB IO) is far worse. |
However, Burn was severely nerfed with the addition of the Fear component, and at that point it would have made sense to add some kind of KB protection. Now, though, a better fix would be to add some kind of slow or brief immobilize to Burn to give it back some of its former glory.
Dark Armor probably trades KB protection for Psi resistance. It was originally the only set that got any psi resistance, and it gave up KB protection to get it.
I have two Fire tankers and a Dark/Dark scrapper. I got Acrobatics on the Fire tanker, but have since switched to KB IOs instead. Originally I used Hover for KB protection on my Dark/Dark scrapper, but Hover was changed and I now use KB IOs. I started the Fire/Ice tanker to try out two things: using Kinetic Crash for KB protection (it works fine, but is slot-intensive), and using Ice Patch to make Burn work (which also works well). When I got a Steadfast -KB I respecced out of Jump Kick and Kinetic Crash.
You can get KB IOs pretty easily these days. The price on Karma -KB and Steadfast -KB is way down from what it used to be, because Blessing of the Zephyr -KB is more desirable, and bronze rolls are a very easy way to generate them. You can get them now for a few million inf if you're patient. You can generate a few million inf by running AE missions and getting rare salvage that you sell for a million or more a pop on the market.
Finally, you can buy those Steadfast -KB and Karma -KB recipes from the merit vendor for 75 merits.
And, of course, you can just take Acrobatics if you're dead set against IOs, in the same way you can take Hasten if you want to attack more frequently without using IOs.
If it's what you really want, you can easily get KB pro for Fiery Aura or Dark Armor.
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That argument seems pretty flimsy. Especially when looking at an endurance/toggle heavy set like DA. As for FA, this seems counter-productive to the damage-for-mitigation aspect of the powerset. You [this is the general you] can't argue the set gets more damage in place of KB, if it loses a potential attack power for the KB. |
Originally Posted by EmpireForgotten
As I see it, Fixing both sets KB hole basically frees up one power - because acro isn't needed.
What other power combinations open up due to this? Just a general question, I haven't looked into builds yet myself. |
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Originally Posted by Rodion
Finally, you can buy those Steadfast -KB and Karma -KB recipes from the merit vendor for 75 merits.
And, of course, you can just take Acrobatics if you're dead set against IOs, in the same way you can take Hasten if you want to attack more frequently without using IOs. If it's what you really want, you can easily get KB pro for Fiery Aura or Dark Armor. |
At this point, the requirement of a power selection outside a sets own pool needs better justification than has been argued in this thread. Your own post reflects how these "observed" reasons have since been negated by nerfs and new powersets.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Actually, I have a question on Burn's Immobilization protection. Does the protection extend past the life time of the actual Burn Patch? I know they made it so the Burn Patch can't be up all the time, but if we compare Burn to other click-based Status protection, is it possible to keep the protection up permanently? And even if it is, how viable is it to have the intended agro manager scattering the mob every thirty seconds, JUST to have that protection?
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Some of my thoughts:
1) I don't feel that DA's knockback protection trade-off is the Psionic resistance. DA, unlike many other sets, doesn't get nigh-invulnerability to its favored element, and it has standard-level protection to most others. It also has lower resistance to its weakness, Energy damage, than other sets. Dark Regen is pretty much balanced as-is with its extremely high endurance cost and to-hit check.
2) I did forget Ninjitsu. That too. If Willpower can't be knocked back, I'm not sure why Ninja magic can be overcome.
3) Ironically, I like the concept of Burn (if not necessarily the execution). The point is that you're burning away whatever has immobilized you. That's fairly clever power design considering it's from launch-era. Cloak of Darkness is a little less justifiable, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.
4) Time for my long-winded counter-counter-argument. I'm coming at this from a strong QoL angle. Being essentially forced to take three pool powers from a specific pool or pay large sums of money for an IO is just not fun. Not in the slightest.
Tankers got their Taunt improved (as well as receiving Gauntlet) so that taking Provoke was no longer necessary. That was for a Tier 1 pool power. Acrobatics is Tier 3, requiring two other Jumping pool powers. That's a huge power cost to cover the KB hole, and also disrupts concept. I don't necessarily want my DA, FA, or Ninjitsu characters to Super Jump around. (Hopefully I don't have to explain what I dislike about paying several million Inf for an IO.)
As was asked previously: Do any of these three sets suddenly become that much more effective once they are immune to knockback? It sure doesn't seem that way IME, as I have both a DA and FA characters with the IO slotted. And if the KB hole is "so easy" to plug already, what, precisely, is the harm in making it easier to do so - as easy as any other set plugs its KB hole?
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According to CoD and Mids' the Immobilize Protection lasts for 100 seconds.|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Actually, I have a question on Burn's Immobilization protection. Does the protection extend past the life time of the actual Burn Patch? I know they made it so the Burn Patch can't be up all the time, but if we compare Burn to other click-based Status protection, is it possible to keep the protection up permanently? And even if it is, how viable is it to have the intended agro manager scattering the mob every thirty seconds, JUST to have that protection?
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I don't think the scatter is exactly a big deal, though admittedly I don't know how for sure how disruptive Burn's fear effect gets. But thinking logically about it - presumably if you're trying to free yourself of immobilize, it's because you want to move somewhere else. At that point scattering a group should be irrelevant. Or with the reverse, there's no reason to break out of immobilize if you're already surrounded by enemies.
Worst case scenario, you can use Burn before entering a mob, just for the protection.
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I really wouldn't have a very strong argument against it (seeing as my DA characters or Elec armor characters tend to plug the KB hole eventually, my 2 DA ones did after 32+ lvls and my Elec picked up Grounded at 28). The only argument I'd put forth is that 'it's the easy way out'. Rather than doing something cool and unique like giving those sets axillary bonuses for that hole, we'll just make every set give the same protection?|
Originally Posted by Rylas
Now, if you cover the KB holes . . . the sets wouldn't be overpowered no big deal.
I think a stronger argument is needed to keep the KB hole in. Would FA and DA suddenly tromp other sets if they had KB protection? Their other holes aren't enough? Would they not still play differently from other sets, as most of they're mitigation tools are different? |
IMO, rather than giving FA KB protection, how about more damage? Consume doing shield charge-like dmg when combined with fiery embrace? Some slow-movement in Burn? I'd take that over KB protection and then figure a way around that later.
Or what about some -ToHit debuff resist in DA plus some -ToHit in Dark Regen? You'd better believe I'd slot DR with some Clouded Senses and Siphon Insight sets. Sounds much tastier than KB protection IMO.
If they could, I bet the devs might consider going back and poking a few holes in sets (like no sleep protection in Stone or something) now that toggles don't drop when mezzed. It'd make things much less 'turn brain off'-like and require *everyone* to actively notice what the enemy is throwing at them.
I don't really think this will matter, since it never has in the past, but on the subject of KB, the only thing that game balance really requires in terms of KB protection, relative to the current game design principles as I am aware of them, is this:
1. Tanker sets are justified in asking for high KB resistance. They are also justified in asking for sufficient KB protection to protect against medium-magnitude KB (around a cumulative intrinsic mag 10 or so, factoring in any resistances). After that, if the game tosses you somewhere, its because it was intended for you to deal with that.
2. Brutes, Scrappers, and Stalkers have no intrinsic design right to KB protection in general, but should preferentially be given some minimum level of resistance *or* protection relative to archetypes that lack personal defense powersets.
3. Anything above that is a gift not mandated by game balance or archetypal requirements. Its entirely within the purview of the game designers so long as they stay reasonably within the bounds of relative powerset balance.
4. The statement "being knocked down is unfun" is a matter of personal preference, no stronger and no weaker of a statement than any other personal preference statement. It has no game balance significance beyond that, unless you can demonstrate a very strong preference against playing those sets that is likely traceable to the KB protection issue.
I believe Dark Armor for tankers and Fiery Aura for tankers can make a reasonable game-balance driven case that they are underprotected against knockback. That case is not absolute, but its reasonable. Everything else falls under personal preference, or attempts to leverage high dubious game balance conjectures.
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The thing is that other sets have their own unique powers and styles without ever giving up KB protection, instead generally giving up something more intangible, but far less annoying (like Def/Res values).|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I really wouldn't have a very strong argument against it (seeing as my DA characters or Elec armor characters tend to plug the KB hole eventually, my 2 DA ones did after 32+ lvls and my Elec picked up Grounded at 28). The only argument I'd put forth is that 'it's the easy way out'. Rather than doing something cool and unique like giving those sets axillary bonuses for that hole, we'll just make every set give the same protection?
If they could, I bet the devs might consider going back and poking a few holes in sets (like no sleep protection in Stone or something) now that toggles don't drop when mezzed. It'd make things much less 'turn brain off'-like and require *everyone* to actively notice what the enemy is throwing at them. |
I do agree, melee defensive sets shouldn't be homogenized, but I consider there to be a big difference between "all sets get proper mez protection" and "all sets get their mez protection the same way".
If there was an elegant way of adding non-standard protection methods to DA/FA/Ninjitsu in the same vein as Grounded, I'd be all for it. But none of the sets have the flexibility for it, IMO.
Similarly, I'd also support the addition of more numerous and better ways to gain knockback protection (via pool powers, presumably). But this has the disadvantage of being more work-intensive, and also affecting all ATs.
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Of course, since 100% KB resistance is equivalent to infinity KB protection (with the exception of the extremely rare non-resistable KB powers), and since almost every KB protection power offers 10,000% KB resistance...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
1. Tanker sets are justified in asking for high KB resistance. They are also justified in asking for sufficient KB protection to protect against medium-magnitude KB (around a cumulative intrinsic mag 10 or so, factoring in any resistances). After that, if the game tosses you somewhere, its because it was intended for you to deal with that.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Thanks. I actually have a level 50 Fire Armor Brute, but I haven't logged into him in months, and actually have him slated to be rerolled as Demon summoning when GR hits. My reason is, much like the devs have said, a character shouldn't need IOs to be a viable concept, and Dark/Fire isn't.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
According to CoD and Mids' the Immobilize Protection lasts for 100 seconds.
I don't think the scatter is exactly a big deal, though admittedly I don't know how for sure how disruptive Burn's fear effect gets. But thinking logically about it - presumably if you're trying to free yourself of immobilize, it's because you want to move somewhere else. At that point scattering a group should be irrelevant. Or with the reverse, there's no reason to break out of immobilize if you're already surrounded by enemies. Worst case scenario, you can use Burn before entering a mob, just for the protection. |
That is to say, there is NO enemy group on ANY map that I can put the character up against more that solo unless someone else is main agro magnet. Said character WILL be bounced like a ping pong and useless until he's dead (and can atleast use RotP ). And this will happen multiple time each mission. I have a Blaster that can survive better.
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I said high, not absolute. Virtually all KB protection in defensive primaries and secondaries (when it exists) is essentially absolute. I think that was mistake #1. It primed players to think that absolute KB protection was remotely reasonable, and that then by extension anyone that didn't have it had an obvious "hole" in their protection.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Of course, since 100% KB resistance is equivalent to infinity KB protection (with the exception of the extremely rare non-resistable KB powers), and since almost every KB protection power offers 10,000% KB resistance...
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Why do I always end up agreeing with Arcana? >_>
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because it was a well-thought and reasoned post?
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Why do I always end up agreeing with Arcana? >_>
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But she could have just as easily took the other side of the argument and done the same, yes?
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Originally Posted by je_saist
because it was a well-thought and reasoned post?
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Why do I always end up agreeing with Arcana? >_>
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someones got a crush ooooh
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You can think of a reasonable way to say that an in game effect used against players should have a way to be completely negated all the time that makes more sense then removing the mechanic itself?
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
But she could have just as easily took the other side of the argument and done the same, yes?
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Oh please, Arcana's a girl...|
Originally Posted by Lucky666
someones got a crush ooooh
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| You can think of a reasonable way to say that an in game effect used against players should have a way to be completely negated all the time that makes more sense then removing the mechanic itself? |
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No, it's not. KB resistance works in the same way as mez resistance - 100% resistance means its mag (duration in the case of mez) is cut in half (mag 4 knockback would turn into mag 2). Even if you had 10,000% knockback resistance with zero points of protection, you'd still get KB'd every time a knockback power hit you (well, it would get turned into very low-mag knockdown, but since the mag of the effect would exceed the mag of your protection, it would happen nonetheless).|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Of course, since 100% KB resistance is equivalent to infinity KB protection (with the exception of the extremely rare non-resistable KB powers), and since almost every KB protection power offers 10,000% KB resistance...
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Really, all of this bellyaching about sets lacking KB protection makes me wonder what people did before IOs.
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Took Acro. Complained.
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Originally Posted by macskull
Really, all of this bellyaching about sets lacking KB protection makes me wonder what people did before IOs.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Or they took hover...since hover making KB a non-issue was fixed after IOs were invented.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
Took Acro. Complained.
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All KB effects in things like attack powers are Magnitude effects. That means resistance uses the magnitude resistance formula, which is the same one damage uses. 100% KB resistance means KB is reduced to zero magnitude.|
Originally Posted by macskull
No, it's not. KB resistance works in the same way as mez resistance - 100% resistance means its mag (duration in the case of mez) is cut in half (mag 4 knockback would turn into mag 2). Even if you had 10,000% knockback resistance with zero points of protection, you'd still get KB'd every time a knockback power hit you (well, it would get turned into very low-mag knockdown, but since the mag of the effect would exceed the mag of your protection, it would happen nonetheless).
Really, all of this bellyaching about sets lacking KB protection makes me wonder what people did before IOs. |
There is no special formula for "damage resistance" and "mez resistance." The game engine supports only two resistance types: magnitude resistance and duration resistance. Which one is used is based on the type encoded on the *effect*. Since KB on attacks is tagged as magnitude-based, all combat effects affect the magnitude of the power: the purple patch reduces the mag of the effect, slotting (if its a player) increases the mag of the effect, and resistances reduce the magnitude of the effect.
If the effect is a magnitude effect, resistance works this way:
Net = Base * (1 - Resistance)
If the effect is a duration effect, resistance works this way:
Net = Base / (1 + Resistance)
Damage is a magnitude effect, so it obeys the first formula. Most mez is coded as a duration effect, so mez tends to obey the second formula. KB is generally coded as a magnitude effect. That's also why slotting KB increases the magnitude of the KB, but slotting Hold tends to increase the duration of the hold: same reason: KB is a magnitude effect and thus slotting increases its magnitude; hold is generally a duration effect and thus slotting increases its duration.
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Interesting... Here's a relevant question, then: What's the relation between knockback magnitude and knockback distance? For instance, would a (final) mad 10 knockback punt something, say, 100 feet, or is there some kind of non-linear equation describing this?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Damage is a magnitude effect, so it obeys the first formula. Most mez is coded as a duration effect, so mez tends to obey the second formula. KB is generally coded as a magnitude effect. That's also why slotting KB increases the magnitude of the KB, but slotting Hold tends to increase the duration of the hold: same reason: KB is a magnitude effect and thus slotting increases its magnitude; hold is generally a duration effect and thus slotting increases its duration.
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As well, I've seen knockback "stacked" when two people use knockback powers almost simultaneously. Is there some duration during which the knockback magnitude is held consistent before it "clears" when the effect wears off? Specifically, how does that work when something resists the knockback effect?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I feel the holes are fine as designed and that they don't need to be covered in the sets themselves. The game is flexible enough to allow you to get the coverage you want to fill in these holes.